iccer wrote: » This is one of the key aspects of the game that I'm still waiting to see before actually deciding if I will play the game or not. From what I've got, Augments will not only change the visual appearance, but also how certain abilities work. As a counter to the reply above mine, I'd say it could actually impact your class more than you think (here's me being optimistic). No, it won't change your Fighter from a melee dps to a ranged dps, the core will remain the same, which is the key part, but it surely will give you more variety. Using the same Charge into Teleport example. Those 2 abilities won't function the same. It's not just a visual tweak. Teleport makes you appear at a certain location, it's almost instant. Charge has some travel time. It's a subtle difference, but also functionally a pretty significant one. If we apply the same to other abilities, I'm hopeful it will make enough of a difference as charge will take longer, and you can be cc-ed on your way to your target. Fighter + Mage could in reality play like a melee magic dps, that has more mid range abilities than your default Fighter. Maybe focusing more on the elements, whirlwind maybe procs electrocute, etc. As long as there's a good visual difference, and as long as there is a lot of customizability, I'll be happy. I'm absolutely positive that functionality of abilities will be changed to some extent as well, whether it's range, radius, attack type, added cc, procs, etc. and as long as we have that WITH visual changes, it's good enough. Let's take Tank + Mage as another example. They could have a magic shield, maybe some abilities turn into AoE magic spells (something like Vicious Implosion from Archeage would be a huge tool for engaging and grouping enemies). Think of Skullknight from Archeage. Then another example would be Tank + Cleric. Totally different, focusing more on survival, healing itself and maybe allies, maybe proccing heals on themselves as a defensive tool, better health regen, etc. The only thing we can do is speculate, and believe what we've heard from Steven a few years ago. I hope they don't abandon this idea, but I also hope they don't just half ass it, so that it has no real impact on gameplay, and I really hope it allows for a lot of customizability, rather than being limited in scope.
ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: » There is nothing wrong about 8 classes (however where is druid? ) core set up, but I hope those flavours will be meaningful enough to provide variety of class gameplay and we don't end up with very limited gameplay variety within the core classes and 25 lvl+ class flavours.
BRAD_AoC wrote: » The main example we've gotten from Steven is the Fighter Charge turning into a Teleport if you chose the Mage as your secondary Archetype. Following that example, these augments most likely won't be impactful enough to truly change your archetype and playstyle in a significant way like many followers of the game seem to think. If you're playing a Necromancer, a Warden, a Duelist, a Battlemage or any other of the fancy names intrepid came up with, you'll essentially just play a Cleric, a Tank, a Rogue or Mage with some slight adjustments to their existing abilities. In the end I think a ton of people will be massively disappointed once they realize how minor the differences between the different secondary archetypes will be and I personally think they should abandon the system in favor of another one that allows for more substantial, playstyle-altering changes to the classes. But I guess we'll see over time what they're cooking up.
Lodrig wrote: » Augmentation can fall under different levels of change Cosmetic - nothing but colors and sparkels, no one expects this to be the case with any augments though they will HAVE a cosmetic effect just to aid recognition. Flavor - a small addition like a damage proc or buff/debuff application in parelel to original effect but which has no real effect on the tactical impact of a skill, dosn't change playstyle or skill loop that the player would employ, aka no 'realearning' of ones kit is needed. Adding some ice damage on an attack or making gap-closer a blink are examples. Radical - a big change that makes the skill tactically different and can change how you play your character, but which still achives broadly similar goals such as doing damage to enemies, crowd control, healing allies etc. Players would need to adapt their playstyle heavily from the augment but would not be at square one. Example a Mages long range Fireball becomes a short range Flame Fan attack requiring them to move into near melee range. Total - the skill is unrecognizable in tactical and gameplay usage and serves a totaly different purpose, a heal becoming an attack for example. The player must relearn the tactical appropriate time to use this skill as if it were brand new. If all their skills were altered like this change their entire role in the party because they no longer do the things they did before. So far everything we have seen says they are looking at Flavor changes from Augments, which is a real shame because Radical and possibly a few Total changes are needed to actually provide the diversity that players want and need to feel like their secondary archetype is meaningful.
BRAD_AoC wrote: » Following that example, these augments most likely won't be impactful enough to truly change your archetype and playstyle in a significant way like many followers of the game seem to think. If you're playing a Necromancer, a Warden, a Duelist, a Battlemage or any other of the fancy names intrepid came up with, you'll essentially just play a Cleric, a Tank, a Rogue or Mage with some slight adjustments to their existing abilities.
BRAD_AoC wrote: » In the end I think a ton of people will be massively disappointed once they realize how minor the differences between the different secondary archetypes will be and I personally think they should abandon the system in favor of another one that allows for more substantial, playstyle-altering changes to the classes. But I guess we'll see over time what they're cooking up.
Yoh wrote: » The way I see it, is the secondary archetype will add themes and unique mechanics to the primary archetype. For example, Rogue is the premier stealth class, that also has high damage and duel wielding. Thus, I would expect any archetype that takes it as a secondary, to gain stealth and probably duel wielding as a mechanic. Stealth may not last as long or work as well as a primary Rogue, but they can now do it. As well as likely having more damage output. Cleric on the other hand, would add healing into the kit of any archetype that picks it up, or improving the healing of any archetype that already had it. There may be more cosmetic changes, but I think that's the practical angle.
iccer wrote: » I think we will get something in between Radical and Flavor, based on what we've heard so far. The skill will not change, a damaging ability will still be that, however how it does damage might change. Added aoe, shorter or longer range, changed dmg type, added procs, on top of having different look to it, is good enough for me. - I mean, this is a whole new ability at this point, I'm not sure if people do realize that. Based on my interpretation, this is also the goal of the system, and I'm also expecting it to work like that. If it's less than that, I'd be disappointed, if it's more than that, and it goes into "total" category, I wouldn't mind it (however I think this would be reserved only for very specific abilities, which would hardly alter your entire kit - no, you won't become a healer if you go with Cleric seconday, but yes, you might get a heal on your spell if you do).
Dygz wrote: » Augments provide significant changes to Active Skills when applied. Secondary Archetype does not provide brand new Active Skills. I dunno why Weapon Skills would need to open Active Skills. Weapons Skills should work as intended - providing, you know, Weapon Skills. There are quite a few other ways to acquire Augments besides just the Secondary Archetype.
ThevoicestHeVoIcEs wrote: » Dygz wrote: » Augments provide significant changes to Active Skills when applied. Secondary Archetype does not provide brand new Active Skills. I dunno why Weapon Skills would need to open Active Skills. Weapons Skills should work as intended - providing, you know, Weapon Skills. There are quite a few other ways to acquire Augments besides just the Secondary Archetype. Thanks, but I feel most of us know that. At this point we are just expressing concern about gameplay differences between "extended" classes. Atm I see no evidence that augments are going to provide "significant" changes to the base class playstyle. Some passive effects on your attacks (elemental damage or heals) or changes to how a skill operates (teleport from A to B instead of a physical charge on fighter) are not "significant" nor a serious change to the fighter playstyle. Here's hoping we are wrong.
- Ranger + Bard would be a cool idea to go for, if you go for Bard's debuff school with your augments. Now your abilities/attacks will apply debuffs, which will help you and your allies take the enemies down. Visually, your class will also look different compared to the regular ranger, even though you are using the same base abilities. It will have its own theme. Your rain of arrows ability now applies debuffs to enemies standing in it. Maybe it just fires one arrow instead, which pulses some melody around itself in an area where it lands. You then choose passives to supplement this idea, further enhancing your ability to perform the following role and playstyle. - What if you picked the Bard's buff school? Imagine using the rain of arrows ability, and all allies standing inside will receive a buff while the arrows fall. You get the idea. Now your ability is a supportive ability mainly, and you will look to use it differently. Another example: - Ranger + Mage Now your arrows are imbued by certain element, they can apply burning, chill, electrocute. Let's say you use Fire school of augmentation. Imagine that rain of arrows just raining down fire, literally. Maybe that also applies some elemental shred, so any enemies standing there get reduced fire resistance. Great area denial tool, especially if you have a bunch of fire mages in your group that can capitalize on lowered fire resist on enemies. Maybe that Somersault ability that we saw in the preview will basically leave a blazing trail beneath you, with fire augment. Visuals will be sick, and you will again play slightly differently, due to how your abilities have changed.
