This is why I think Intrepid should change course and to the following.
Descope from 4 augments per secondary archetype to 1 focused tree of 10 to 20 nodes per class, aka the Class tree which will sit on another tab alongside the base archetype skill tree. This eliminates the multiple thousands of bland skill/augment combinations down to 640 to 1280 nodes most of which will only alter 1 base skill much the same way many base archetype nodes currently due. This resultins in a reduction of between 60-80% in interactions which need to be designed and tested.
Similarly make racial/religion and any other augment source also small trees on tabs, as these could be applied to any base archetype they would mostly be passive effects rather then skill alterations. A small number of active skills might also be a possibility as these skills will not see modifications from a class they can exist in parrelel without adding complexity, such skills should be of a more utility nature so as not to engender race/religion/archetype optimal combos.
Allow the nodes of that class tree to far more radically change the base archetype skills, but for these changes to be very clearly focused towards making a kit which provides a playstyle which is both distinct from either the primary or secondary archetype and which feels like a true synthesis of them and which fuffills a clear 'class fantasy' which is stated upfront and allows a player to make an informed choice about the class they want to play as.
Lastly this preserves the ability to expand or contract the class tree size as development continues, and even after launch to plug any holes or needs which might arrise both with the class tree or the underlying base archetype kit so this system is more future proof and expandable over time. Bit by bit a class tree can be expanded with options to introduce a second branch and second defacto kit that the player can utilize or hybridize between. In contrast augment systems have to bite off a huge amount of potential interactions and complexity for each augment, and it would be expected to keep the same number of augments options across all secondary archetypes, so going from 4 to 5 augments requires thousands of interactions to introduce.
First off all the examples you gave and which Intrepid have given in the past are barely above the level of cosmetic changes, basically just procs for some additional elemental damage on skills, but in every example the core usage case, tactical impact and interactin with the rest of the kit remain the same. This would have no effect on playstyle as it is the kind of stuff that gear often allows in other games, such as having a sword do fire damage etc, no one would say that makes a fighter anything but a fighter. Intrepid has shown that their engine has the capability to make radical changes to base skills, but none of the design documentation shows a willingness to use that capability for anything but cosmetic and flavor variation.
This the aformentioned doubt of impact, which is fine, but I don't share that doubt and especially the notion that my examples would clearly prove that there is "no impact" to these augments is something I will strongly disagree with.
"Chilling Mend" (Ice) - still restores health, but also reduces burn/fire stacks on the target, also creates a small burst that deals cold damage around the target and appies a stack of chilled.
Applied on a mage channeling blizzard on an incoming group of enemies, this would have the potential to stack cold stacks so fast onto the enemies that they, meaning compared to the basic Mend this one becomes an effective tool of CC support for any target character also applying cold stacks.
"Firey Mend" (Fire) - still heals, also reduces stacks of cold effects on the target and creates a small aura of AoE fire damage (like 2seconds)
This reduces CC on the tank, helping him dish out more of his own CC and the AoE basically punishes the enemy for staying where the tank wants them - in range. Note that Mend has multiple charges, so if you have 5 stacks and as the Cleric fire these at a frequency of 2 seconds the Firey Meng would result in 10s of continuous magic damage - something no heavily armored enemy will want to be subjected to.
"Crackling Mend" (Thunder) - still heals and reduces static charges or reduces effect time of something like stagger or stun. Also explodes for a small amount of lightning damage - if a stack is removed this way, damage of the explosion is increased; if a hard cc is broken by the Mend the damge increase is even higher. Or it could add additional lightning damage to the targets next 3-5 weapon attacks.
Putting that on your Rogue or Ranger not only gives them more sustain in the back line, bearking them out of hard CC if timed correctly and also would increase their damage potential to land a kill in the backline and escape with enough HP. If that is not significant additional impact to you, I have to ask myself what would meet your expectations.
"Distorting Mending" (Void) - heals and creates a small spacial shock around the target. Nearby enemies of the target become rooted if they were staggered, they become stunned if they were rooted (for the remainder of the root time) and if they had no debuffs on them their movement speed is decreased by 20-35% for 1-2s.
This one would be so nasty that I don't even know how this could be too light. You can promote soft CC to hard CC and if you have a team mate in a chase scene because of low HP, this skill alone could turn the situation around and make it an incredible kite where ever hit of Distorting Mend heals AND slows the enemy, making even a low mobility class hard to get away from.
I cant explain it better than that, but I hope you get my point: Yes these aren't groundbreaking changes that would change the skill entirely and in all situations, but I think that is exactly what Intrepid is aiming for with this system, the augments are playstyle adaptions that should support us more in the situations that we tend to find ourselves in the most. And a PvP focused Cleric would definitely be one hell of a pain to deal with through on of these Mend Versions compared to the basic spell.
I don't know if those designing this at Intrepid still need to hear this, but since we've had multiple threads recently:
My group and I still believe you can do this to our satisfaction, team. Whether that's because we're easy to please, or other people just don't have the same type of imagination, barely matters, right? If you're at the point where you have a goal and are working toward it, we're behind it all the way.
I haven't yet seen a counterpoint from any poster that could convince me that the course needs to change, all my 'doubts' are based on the fact that it's taking so long, and maybe theirs are too.
I do agree that if you don't think you can do this, or you are still struggling with it, you need to tell us, soon, and maybe consider these threads to be important, but our feedback is that if you are just keeping things close to the chest, or still gathering data from the many games that do this well, or even just 'tuning it so that it doesn't overwhelm certain types of player', keep going.
It's not even 'we really want to experience this because it seems so cool and novel'. It's definitely in the 'why are people reacting like this to something that is so common/relatively easy?' pile. So keep poking at the MOBAs, and the Nippon Ichi Software games, and Dragon Warrior, and TL, and the good Diablo games, and push on.
I have no doubt that they can pull the system off. What they are talking about is not hard to make.
I'm worried about people being upset because the class they were promised is a sub class.
I'm worried that the lack of playstyles will amount to lower sales on launch.
This is a really good example of someone jumping the gun, if not asking for an entirely different game experience.
We haven’t even had a chance to test all the classes. You’re gonna have to cool your jets until well into Alpha 2, as well as give up on the arbitrary armor and weapon restrictions. That’s a pillar of the gameplay design and if it’s a deal breaker for you, then there are other games you can get into that have those sort of arbitrary restrictions.
I read through the other comments, it seems that there is serious doubt in the impactfulness of augements in general. And I understand that we do not know for sure but here is my take on:
And the thing is, this is only the case because we haven't seen anything yet, or really heard much about it.
I really like your examples, and that's pretty much what I also would think is the goal of this system. And I am a big fan of that.
However, I'm cautiously optimistic, because I've been disappointed already with some feature showcases, and I wouldn't be surprised if they changed their mind about how much of an impact augments will have. Or rather, maybe I had envisioned it differently.
Also to add to it:
How many abilities are we going to end up having on the skill bar? 10? 15?
I feel like class augments should apply to maybe half of those, your main abilities basically, or rather, those abilities you use most often. We also have several other augment types that are not tied to the class/archetype system.
The Title itself SC~REEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAMS with Confidence and Conviction that You can probably do a better Job for the Class System than the Company who worked on for noticeably longer than half a Decade, Berserker.
Not so much 'better' as 'different'.
OP just wants a more restrictive game style, normally found in the 'Asian' MMORPG side of things.
There are/will be games for them, which are likely to release around the same time as Ashes anyway.
Again I never said change the system, please reread my Post.
The biggest change I suggested was changing the focus from sub classes to base classes. That's not a different Design, that's a focus shift.
I read through the other comments, it seems that there is serious doubt in the impactfulness of augements in general. And I understand that we do not know for sure but here is my take on:
And the thing is, this is only the case because we haven't seen anything yet, or really heard much about it.
I really like your examples, and that's pretty much what I also would think is the goal of this system. And I am a big fan of that.
However, I'm cautiously optimistic, because I've been disappointed already with some feature showcases, and I wouldn't be surprised if they changed their mind about how much of an impact augments will have. Or rather, maybe I had envisioned it differently.
Also to add to it:
How many abilities are we going to end up having on the skill bar? 10? 15?
I feel like class augments should apply to maybe half of those, your main abilities basically, or rather, those abilities you use most often. We also have several other augment types that are not tied to the class/archetype system.
The Title itself SC~REEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAMS with Confidence and Conviction that You can probably do a better Job for the Class System than the Company who worked on for noticeably longer than half a Decade, Berserker.
Not so much 'better' as 'different'.
OP just wants a more restrictive game style, normally found in the 'Asian' MMORPG side of things.
There are/will be games for them, which are likely to release around the same time as Ashes anyway.
Again I never said change the system, please reread my Post.
The biggest change I suggested was change the focus from sub classes to base classes. That not a different Design change.
I feel like there might be too much attachment that people (myself included) have already developed to the "existing" augment/class designs. Even though they don't really exist yet... Doesn't Intrepid want us to give feedback and tell them when we think their design direction is flawed? Especially before they waste a bunch of work on it?
I think people here have clearly identified two potential flaws to the whole system: 1) The 64 subclasses are not likely to feel unique enough. And 2) it might take way too long to make as many augments as Intrepid supposedly wants. (Although I think people might be misinterpreting the "4 augment paths" thing. It's probably just 4 "trees" not 4 augment choices for every single ability. Still, that's a heavy cost for something that might feel shallow or redundant in the end.)
And of course, balance might be an issue, but it's entirely secondary to the others. If classes feel unique and augments aren't infeasibly numerous in the first place, then balancing them afterwards shouldn't be too tall of an order.
I want to make it clear augments will be super easy to make, your adding an effect which probably already exists and needs to be attached to an ability.
There is nothing wrong with the system, the problem is the focus.
0
DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Telling a player after what will be probably months of play time, they get some extra particles when they twirl their sword now isn't enough or a passive effect, isn't exactly ground breaking.
By design, Augments are more than just extra particles.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven Sharif
Telling a player after what will be probably months of play time, they get some extra particles when they twirl their sword now isn't enough or a passive effect, isn't exactly ground breaking.
By design, Augments are more than just extra particles.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven Sharif
Telling a player after what will be probably months of play time, they get some extra particles when they twirl their sword now isn't enough or a passive effect, isn't exactly ground breaking.
By design, Augments are more than just extra particles.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Scroll down and read the whole wiki page while you are at it. There are a few more things that describe how augments will work.
Nobody has ever argued that augments will create a different class, with totally unique set of abilities and mechanics. Your class = combination of 2 archetypes. Fighter is not a class, but an archetype.
Crazy someone is saying its flawed without IS showing anything about it yet. And people having 0 evidence how its really going to work yet besides a few quotes like charge can be a teleport (which at that point it is less flavor and more of a skill having different functionality).
If there were 30 unique classes I'm sure people love everything being unique. But that is far more work than the augment system for making full classes.
Tons of responses, but as soon as i saw the 8x8 class system I thought of DnD where you can multiclass etc. For them to have 64 options in Alpha is crazy. I think it would be best to let them flesh out the entire system and try to find something you like rather than forcing your gameplay ideals down everyones throats.
Crazy someone is saying its flawed without IS showing anything about it yet. And people having 0 evidence how its really going to work yet besides a few quotes like charge can be a teleport (which at that point it is less flavor and more of a skill having different functionality).
The functionality is the same, but the method is different. Just as pretty much any other game's classes work. There can be 4 different melee classes in a game, but they'll all still just be melee classes that just have slightly different methods of dealing their melee dmg/effects.
Ashes will have the same thing. Fighter can change their skills to have different effects on them, even though basic functionality is still the same.
Intrepid definitely should've had at least 10 proper examples of augments ready to explain by this point. Cause only having that god damn fucking "rush can now teleport" example was old years ago. And now it's ancient, and in the absence of all the other examples we're now getting threads like this.
Do we even know anything about the augmentations that clearly shows the focus?
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven Sharif
Telling a player after what will be probably months of play time, they get some extra particles when they twirl their sword now isn't enough or a passive effect, isn't exactly ground breaking.
By design, Augments are more than just extra particles.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes.
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Scroll down and read the whole wiki page while you are at it. There are a few more things that describe how augments will work.
Nobody has ever argued that augments will create a different class, with totally unique set of abilities and mechanics. Your class = combination of 2 archetypes. Fighter is not a class, but an archetype.
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes" - Steven Sharif
That is Steven literally saying you will get a different CLASS when you select your secondary archetype
Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
Where as, Bladedancer, Highsword, Weapon Master, Spellsword which are all going to have the same exact playstyle, same abilities, same armor, same weapons, same abilities.
Hmmm...Seems to me like we should use a different word to describe the bottom 4 since there basically the same. Maybe subclass?
Tons of responses, but as soon as i saw the 8x8 class system I thought of DnD where you can multiclass etc. For them to have 64 options in Alpha is crazy. I think it would be best to let them flesh out the entire system and try to find something you like rather than forcing your gameplay ideals down everyones throats.
Here's the problem, in DnD when you pick a new class you get new weapon options (class dependent), new armor options (class dependent), new skill proficiencies, and new abilities to use. You get none of those in this system, you get a few aesthetic changes, some passive changes added, and that is it.
By the way if you read the OP I literally suggest doing 3 of those things that are missing.
For some reason your looking at a picture and assuming it has all the attributes of something similar. It's literally nothing like that, it has none of the major components of that system.
Think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding over this project. Intrepid is giving you access to the development of an MMORPG in the mold of old style games. They are not having the fans make decisions about how the game will be made. Oh they may consider feedback and might even have polls on subjects, but they aren’t designing the game based on what you or I suggest. They might like an idea or two, but an entire class system isn’t up for discussion. We can talk about it, sure, but may as well to do that on Reddit, the cesspit that it is.
The class system they are using is based on a previous game that Steven likes and played. Believe that game ended up with 128 “classes”.
While Stephen has roots in D&D and Pathfinder, this isn’t those games. Wow ain’t it either.
I'm worried about people being upset because the class they were promised is a sub class.
I'm worried that the lack of playstyles will amount to lower sales on launch.
That will definitely happen to a few People who refuse to inform themselves about the Archetype-Class System.
But honestly now -> who in their right Mind would be insane enough " NOT " to inform themselves, when they see something as incredible as " 64 Classes " being promised ?
People should realise there is a bit of a catch. So many Classes ? At Launch ? I wouldn't be surprised if there would never be as many actual "Classes" in any MMO that might still come out in our Lifetimes.
I don't think there will be any real lack of Playstyles only because the finished Game will have just "Eight" actually truly different Classes a.k.a. Archetypes at Launch.
You can give your best to play as a Hero.
Or as a total Scumbag. (lol)
Or as a Mercenary. Defending or attacking Caravans.
Or as a Merchant. A Craftsman. A Storekeeper. A Farmer. A Sailor. A Pirate. A Soldier. A Cultist. An Explorer. An Adventurer. A Daredevil. Or maybe just ... ... ... ... ... ... a mere Citizen - giving his best for his Node.
While You fight countless, scary Creatures, Monsters, maybe even mighty Dragons or Demigod-like, fallen Ancients. Side by Side with your many fellow Node-Citizens.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding over this project. Intrepid is giving you access to the development of an MMORPG in the mold of old style games. They are not having the fans make decisions about how the game will be made. Oh they may consider feedback and might even have polls on subjects, but they aren’t designing the game based on what you or I suggest. They might like an idea or two, but an entire class system isn’t up for discussion. We can talk about it, sure, but may as well to do that on Reddit, the cesspit that it is.
The class system they are using is based on a previous game that Steven likes and played. Believe that game ended up with 128 “classes”.
While Stephen has roots in D&D and Pathfinder, this isn’t those games. Wow ain’t it either.
Fix implies something is wrong. Not that something is broken.
Your right it isn't except it kinda is since they are working on base classes right now so if we want more base classes now is the time to say something, not after alpha 2 starts in 6 months when they have finished the base classes.
People should realize there is a bit of a catch. So many Classes ? At Launch ? I wouldn't be surprised if there would never be as many actual "Classes" in any MMO that might still come out in our Lifetimes.
This is a way to look at it. It's their fault that they didn't do the research, you could say that, yeah. Problem is that wont stop them from leaving a one star review and never touching the game ever again, even if the game does eventually implement something they would enjoy.
Now look at it from my perspective, what I am suggesting is adding 3 letters, it costs nothing, would easily be implemented, and would have no effect on development, and only has up sides, and yet zero people are willing to admit this is a no brainer of a change should happen.
Now if that doesn't make you worry about this game I don't know what will. I'll explain why. Item 1 is literally a free win, and I can't even get mild support for it. Because it would be "changing" the game. Now imagine if the devs royally shit the bed. Who's going to correct them? No one on this forum, that's for damn sure. They wont correct some thing that is free, in every way, but they will correct something that adds 6 months of development time and costs 500k? You can try to convince me of that, but I promise you never will. This community will watch the devs steer this ship into an ice berg and cheer them on the whole time and be confused when there getting on life boats.
And no I'm not saying it will happen, or the devs will do it on purpose.
Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
How is monk different from a fighter? How is shaman different from a mage?
Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
How is monk different from a fighter? How is shaman different from a mage?
Your right no differences between those classes at all.
Your right no differences between those classes at all.
It was a genuine question. I got no clue what you mean by monk or shaman, because I never played/seen what those classes do or how they differ from a melee physical dps and a ranged magic dps.
Your right no differences between those classes at all.
It was a genuine question. I got no clue what you mean by monk or shaman, because I never played seen what those classes do or how they different from a melee physical dps and a ranged magic dps.
You dont know the difference between the words class and role?
lol, let me see one more topic about advice about how to fix the game
Almost pretentious isn't it, thinking that the class system needs fixed when it's not broken. Almost like borderline narcissistic comments like, "Intrepid you can still redeem yourselves in our eyes", like they're aren't some rando on the internet.
You dont know the difference between the words class and role?
I'm trying to understand how what the OP wants is in any way different from what Intrepid can already have in the game. If OP's "monk" is the same as L2's Tyrant - that is literally just the fighter but with buffs and fist weapons. So AoC's fighter can just get augments from bard and use daggers or smth (I would also like fist weapons in Ashes, but so far we ain't got any, but that has nothing to do with class skillsets).
And if Shaman is something similar to Warcryer or Over - that's just bard/mage, a debuffers with some magical dmg.
But maybe OP's expectations of those classes is somehow drastically different from the stuff I described above, which is why I asked for a clarification.
lol, let me see one more topic about advice about how to fix the game
Almost pretentious isn't it, thinking that the class system needs fixed when it's not broken. Almost like borderline narcissistic comments like, "Intrepid you can still redeem yourselves in our eyes", like they're aren't some rando on the internet.
Because no group of devs spent 9 years developing an mmo to watch it crash and burn in less then 5 years.
lol, let me see one more topic about advice about how to fix the game
Almost pretentious isn't it, thinking that the class system needs fixed when it's not broken. Almost like borderline narcissistic comments like, "Intrepid you can still redeem yourselves in our eyes", like they're aren't some rando on the internet.
It's normal talking about game designs.
What's not normal is complaining about Alpha Keys and such.
And there is nothing surprising here. Many have expressed concern about the 8x8 combo system.
There are other examples of narcissism in these forums, you should start there.
This is a valid topic. Rare these days, a good change from the ones that feel like a typed delirioum during a sugar rush, that result quickly in a meme fest, rivalring the discord.
Btw Steven also said during the AMA that the class system is something he expects to be changed among others.
Damn, the game has now been in development for 9 years That number goes up every time I see someone mention it to complain about the development duration
Comments
Descope from 4 augments per secondary archetype to 1 focused tree of 10 to 20 nodes per class, aka the Class tree which will sit on another tab alongside the base archetype skill tree. This eliminates the multiple thousands of bland skill/augment combinations down to 640 to 1280 nodes most of which will only alter 1 base skill much the same way many base archetype nodes currently due. This resultins in a reduction of between 60-80% in interactions which need to be designed and tested.
Similarly make racial/religion and any other augment source also small trees on tabs, as these could be applied to any base archetype they would mostly be passive effects rather then skill alterations. A small number of active skills might also be a possibility as these skills will not see modifications from a class they can exist in parrelel without adding complexity, such skills should be of a more utility nature so as not to engender race/religion/archetype optimal combos.
Allow the nodes of that class tree to far more radically change the base archetype skills, but for these changes to be very clearly focused towards making a kit which provides a playstyle which is both distinct from either the primary or secondary archetype and which feels like a true synthesis of them and which fuffills a clear 'class fantasy' which is stated upfront and allows a player to make an informed choice about the class they want to play as.
Lastly this preserves the ability to expand or contract the class tree size as development continues, and even after launch to plug any holes or needs which might arrise both with the class tree or the underlying base archetype kit so this system is more future proof and expandable over time. Bit by bit a class tree can be expanded with options to introduce a second branch and second defacto kit that the player can utilize or hybridize between. In contrast augment systems have to bite off a huge amount of potential interactions and complexity for each augment, and it would be expected to keep the same number of augments options across all secondary archetypes, so going from 4 to 5 augments requires thousands of interactions to introduce.
This the aformentioned doubt of impact, which is fine, but I don't share that doubt and especially the notion that my examples would clearly prove that there is "no impact" to these augments is something I will strongly disagree with.
Applied on a mage channeling blizzard on an incoming group of enemies, this would have the potential to stack cold stacks so fast onto the enemies that they, meaning compared to the basic Mend this one becomes an effective tool of CC support for any target character also applying cold stacks.
This reduces CC on the tank, helping him dish out more of his own CC and the AoE basically punishes the enemy for staying where the tank wants them - in range. Note that Mend has multiple charges, so if you have 5 stacks and as the Cleric fire these at a frequency of 2 seconds the Firey Meng would result in 10s of continuous magic damage - something no heavily armored enemy will want to be subjected to.
Putting that on your Rogue or Ranger not only gives them more sustain in the back line, bearking them out of hard CC if timed correctly and also would increase their damage potential to land a kill in the backline and escape with enough HP. If that is not significant additional impact to you, I have to ask myself what would meet your expectations.
This one would be so nasty that I don't even know how this could be too light. You can promote soft CC to hard CC and if you have a team mate in a chase scene because of low HP, this skill alone could turn the situation around and make it an incredible kite where ever hit of Distorting Mend heals AND slows the enemy, making even a low mobility class hard to get away from.
I cant explain it better than that, but I hope you get my point: Yes these aren't groundbreaking changes that would change the skill entirely and in all situations, but I think that is exactly what Intrepid is aiming for with this system, the augments are playstyle adaptions that should support us more in the situations that we tend to find ourselves in the most. And a PvP focused Cleric would definitely be one hell of a pain to deal with through on of these Mend Versions compared to the basic spell.
I have no doubt that they can pull the system off. What they are talking about is not hard to make.
I'm worried about people being upset because the class they were promised is a sub class.
I'm worried that the lack of playstyles will amount to lower sales on launch.
We haven’t even had a chance to test all the classes. You’re gonna have to cool your jets until well into Alpha 2, as well as give up on the arbitrary armor and weapon restrictions. That’s a pillar of the gameplay design and if it’s a deal breaker for you, then there are other games you can get into that have those sort of arbitrary restrictions.
Again I never said change the system, please reread my Post.
The biggest change I suggested was changing the focus from sub classes to base classes. That's not a different Design, that's a focus shift.
I want to make it clear augments will be super easy to make, your adding an effect which probably already exists and needs to be attached to an ability.
There is nothing wrong with the system, the problem is the focus.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
Test it and find out.
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven Sharif
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Scroll down and read the whole wiki page while you are at it. There are a few more things that describe how augments will work.
Nobody has ever argued that augments will create a different class, with totally unique set of abilities and mechanics. Your class = combination of 2 archetypes. Fighter is not a class, but an archetype.
If there were 30 unique classes I'm sure people love everything being unique. But that is far more work than the augment system for making full classes.
Ashes will have the same thing. Fighter can change their skills to have different effects on them, even though basic functionality is still the same.
Intrepid definitely should've had at least 10 proper examples of augments ready to explain by this point. Cause only having that god damn fucking "rush can now teleport" example was old years ago. And now it's ancient, and in the absence of all the other examples we're now getting threads like this.
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes" - Steven Sharif
That is Steven literally saying you will get a different CLASS when you select your secondary archetype
Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
Where as, Bladedancer, Highsword, Weapon Master, Spellsword which are all going to have the same exact playstyle, same abilities, same armor, same weapons, same abilities.
Hmmm...Seems to me like we should use a different word to describe the bottom 4 since there basically the same. Maybe subclass?
Here's the problem, in DnD when you pick a new class you get new weapon options (class dependent), new armor options (class dependent), new skill proficiencies, and new abilities to use. You get none of those in this system, you get a few aesthetic changes, some passive changes added, and that is it.
By the way if you read the OP I literally suggest doing 3 of those things that are missing.
For some reason your looking at a picture and assuming it has all the attributes of something similar. It's literally nothing like that, it has none of the major components of that system.
Think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding over this project. Intrepid is giving you access to the development of an MMORPG in the mold of old style games. They are not having the fans make decisions about how the game will be made. Oh they may consider feedback and might even have polls on subjects, but they aren’t designing the game based on what you or I suggest. They might like an idea or two, but an entire class system isn’t up for discussion. We can talk about it, sure, but may as well to do that on Reddit, the cesspit that it is.
The class system they are using is based on a previous game that Steven likes and played. Believe that game ended up with 128 “classes”.
While Stephen has roots in D&D and Pathfinder, this isn’t those games. Wow ain’t it either.
That will definitely happen to a few People who refuse to inform themselves about the Archetype-Class System.
But honestly now -> who in their right Mind would be insane enough " NOT " to inform themselves, when they see something as incredible as " 64 Classes " being promised ?
People should realise there is a bit of a catch. So many Classes ? At Launch ? I wouldn't be surprised if there would never be as many actual "Classes" in any MMO that might still come out in our Lifetimes.
I don't think there will be any real lack of Playstyles only because the finished Game will have just "Eight" actually truly different Classes a.k.a. Archetypes at Launch.
You can give your best to play as a Hero.
Or as a total Scumbag. (lol)
Or as a Mercenary. Defending or attacking Caravans.
Or as a Merchant. A Craftsman. A Storekeeper. A Farmer. A Sailor. A Pirate. A Soldier. A Cultist. An Explorer. An Adventurer. A Daredevil. Or maybe just ... ... ... ... ... ... a mere Citizen - giving his best for his Node.
While You fight countless, scary Creatures, Monsters, maybe even mighty Dragons or Demigod-like, fallen Ancients. Side by Side with your many fellow Node-Citizens.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Fix implies something is wrong. Not that something is broken.
Your right it isn't except it kinda is since they are working on base classes right now so if we want more base classes now is the time to say something, not after alpha 2 starts in 6 months when they have finished the base classes.
This is a way to look at it. It's their fault that they didn't do the research, you could say that, yeah. Problem is that wont stop them from leaving a one star review and never touching the game ever again, even if the game does eventually implement something they would enjoy.
Now look at it from my perspective, what I am suggesting is adding 3 letters, it costs nothing, would easily be implemented, and would have no effect on development, and only has up sides, and yet zero people are willing to admit this is a no brainer of a change should happen.
Now if that doesn't make you worry about this game I don't know what will. I'll explain why. Item 1 is literally a free win, and I can't even get mild support for it. Because it would be "changing" the game. Now imagine if the devs royally shit the bed. Who's going to correct them? No one on this forum, that's for damn sure. They wont correct some thing that is free, in every way, but they will correct something that adds 6 months of development time and costs 500k? You can try to convince me of that, but I promise you never will. This community will watch the devs steer this ship into an ice berg and cheer them on the whole time and be confused when there getting on life boats.
And no I'm not saying it will happen, or the devs will do it on purpose.
Your right no differences between those classes at all.
You dont know the difference between the words class and role?
Almost pretentious isn't it, thinking that the class system needs fixed when it's not broken. Almost like borderline narcissistic comments like, "Intrepid you can still redeem yourselves in our eyes", like they're aren't some rando on the internet.
And if Shaman is something similar to Warcryer or Over - that's just bard/mage, a debuffers with some magical dmg.
But maybe OP's expectations of those classes is somehow drastically different from the stuff I described above, which is why I asked for a clarification.
Because no group of devs spent 9 years developing an mmo to watch it crash and burn in less then 5 years.
It's normal talking about game designs.
What's not normal is complaining about Alpha Keys and such.
And there is nothing surprising here. Many have expressed concern about the 8x8 combo system.
There are other examples of narcissism in these forums, you should start there.
This is a valid topic. Rare these days, a good change from the ones that feel like a typed delirioum during a sugar rush, that result quickly in a meme fest, rivalring the discord.
Btw Steven also said during the AMA that the class system is something he expects to be changed among others.