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To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Comments
Descope from 4 augments per secondary archetype to 1 focused tree of 10 to 20 nodes per class, aka the Class tree which will sit on another tab alongside the base archetype skill tree. This eliminates the multiple thousands of bland skill/augment combinations down to 640 to 1280 nodes most of which will only alter 1 base skill much the same way many base archetype nodes currently due. This resultins in a reduction of between 60-80% in interactions which need to be designed and tested.
Similarly make racial/religion and any other augment source also small trees on tabs, as these could be applied to any base archetype they would mostly be passive effects rather then skill alterations. A small number of active skills might also be a possibility as these skills will not see modifications from a class they can exist in parrelel without adding complexity, such skills should be of a more utility nature so as not to engender race/religion/archetype optimal combos.
Allow the nodes of that class tree to far more radically change the base archetype skills, but for these changes to be very clearly focused towards making a kit which provides a playstyle which is both distinct from either the primary or secondary archetype and which feels like a true synthesis of them and which fuffills a clear 'class fantasy' which is stated upfront and allows a player to make an informed choice about the class they want to play as.
Lastly this preserves the ability to expand or contract the class tree size as development continues, and even after launch to plug any holes or needs which might arrise both with the class tree or the underlying base archetype kit so this system is more future proof and expandable over time. Bit by bit a class tree can be expanded with options to introduce a second branch and second defacto kit that the player can utilize or hybridize between. In contrast augment systems have to bite off a huge amount of potential interactions and complexity for each augment, and it would be expected to keep the same number of augments options across all secondary archetypes, so going from 4 to 5 augments requires thousands of interactions to introduce.
This the aformentioned doubt of impact, which is fine, but I don't share that doubt and especially the notion that my examples would clearly prove that there is "no impact" to these augments is something I will strongly disagree with.
Applied on a mage channeling blizzard on an incoming group of enemies, this would have the potential to stack cold stacks so fast onto the enemies that they, meaning compared to the basic Mend this one becomes an effective tool of CC support for any target character also applying cold stacks.
This reduces CC on the tank, helping him dish out more of his own CC and the AoE basically punishes the enemy for staying where the tank wants them - in range. Note that Mend has multiple charges, so if you have 5 stacks and as the Cleric fire these at a frequency of 2 seconds the Firey Meng would result in 10s of continuous magic damage - something no heavily armored enemy will want to be subjected to.
Putting that on your Rogue or Ranger not only gives them more sustain in the back line, bearking them out of hard CC if timed correctly and also would increase their damage potential to land a kill in the backline and escape with enough HP. If that is not significant additional impact to you, I have to ask myself what would meet your expectations.
This one would be so nasty that I don't even know how this could be too light. You can promote soft CC to hard CC and if you have a team mate in a chase scene because of low HP, this skill alone could turn the situation around and make it an incredible kite where ever hit of Distorting Mend heals AND slows the enemy, making even a low mobility class hard to get away from.
I cant explain it better than that, but I hope you get my point: Yes these aren't groundbreaking changes that would change the skill entirely and in all situations, but I think that is exactly what Intrepid is aiming for with this system, the augments are playstyle adaptions that should support us more in the situations that we tend to find ourselves in the most. And a PvP focused Cleric would definitely be one hell of a pain to deal with through on of these Mend Versions compared to the basic spell.
I have no doubt that they can pull the system off. What they are talking about is not hard to make.
I'm worried about people being upset because the class they were promised is a sub class.
I'm worried that the lack of playstyles will amount to lower sales on launch.
We haven’t even had a chance to test all the classes. You’re gonna have to cool your jets until well into Alpha 2, as well as give up on the arbitrary armor and weapon restrictions. That’s a pillar of the gameplay design and if it’s a deal breaker for you, then there are other games you can get into that have those sort of arbitrary restrictions.
Again I never said change the system, please reread my Post.
The biggest change I suggested was changing the focus from sub classes to base classes. That's not a different Design, that's a focus shift.
I want to make it clear augments will be super easy to make, your adding an effect which probably already exists and needs to be attached to an ability.
There is nothing wrong with the system, the problem is the focus.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
Tell us you don't understand Secondary Archetypes without telling us you don't undertsand Secondary Archetypes.
Test it and find out.
I mean, I theorycrafted most of what I said about augmented skills to highlight what I would expect an impactful but core-preserving augment system to look like, within the confines of what Intrepid had told us. Which is mainly [from the tank livestream I think] that skills were designed as modular packages allowing for parallel development of its different components and Stevens statements regarding maintenance of the core mechanic of the original skill and adding/exchanging some of its effects.
So I don't know whether it will actually end up being the way I pointed out in my examples, but to me it feels like this would be the direction.
@Vaknar , @StevenSharif help a brother out here and rate my Mend example (on page 1, 14th comment) in terms of how close this is to the intent you have with the augment system
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes, then you'll have a number of augments that you'll be able to apply on a per-ability basis; and your core ability kit comes from your primary archetype selection; and those augments will change the look and feel of those abilities; and some will have the affect to create more darker thematic aspects to it. Or just generally different aesthetics to the abilities that represent the secondary [archetype] selection." – Steven Sharif
"The intent behind the augment system is not to provide new active abilities. They're intended to augment existing active abilities that are provided through your primary archetype; and so your secondary archetype selection completes your class selection, of which there's 64 types and you get augment skills that can apply certain attributes and mechanics to your existing active skills. So, if you have certain abilities, like a backstab as a Rogue primary archetype, and you take that healer secondary archetype selection, now the properties of your backstab will still remain the same as an active ability, however it might include things like life steal, or it might include things like susceptible weakness to the target, and reduces their healing because the definition of what those augments are intended to provide based on the archetype selected for the augments is within the schools of magic that live for that archetype: so a Cleric is about balancing life and death and the control of those types of hit points." – Steven Sharif
By design my statement of adding particles is closer to the truth then saying augments will create a different "class".
So you're okay with the devs at the very least using misleading language to sell a product, but if I make a rhetorical statement because I've run out of ways of saying augments aren't enough that needs to be nipped bud right away. Got it.
Scroll down and read the whole wiki page while you are at it. There are a few more things that describe how augments will work.
Nobody has ever argued that augments will create a different class, with totally unique set of abilities and mechanics. Your class = combination of 2 archetypes. Fighter is not a class, but an archetype.
If there were 30 unique classes I'm sure people love everything being unique. But that is far more work than the augment system for making full classes.
Ashes will have the same thing. Fighter can change their skills to have different effects on them, even though basic functionality is still the same.
Intrepid definitely should've had at least 10 proper examples of augments ready to explain by this point. Cause only having that god damn fucking "rush can now teleport" example was old years ago. And now it's ancient, and in the absence of all the other examples we're now getting threads like this.
"When you reach the class phase, which is around level 25 and you introduce that secondary archetype selection to create your one of 64 classes" - Steven Sharif
That is Steven literally saying you will get a different CLASS when you select your secondary archetype
Mage, Monk, Fighter, Shaman are all classes. While some of them are similar they all have different playstyles, different armor, different weapons, different spells and abilities.
Where as, Bladedancer, Highsword, Weapon Master, Spellsword which are all going to have the same exact playstyle, same abilities, same armor, same weapons, same abilities.
Hmmm...Seems to me like we should use a different word to describe the bottom 4 since there basically the same. Maybe subclass?
Here's the problem, in DnD when you pick a new class you get new weapon options (class dependent), new armor options (class dependent), new skill proficiencies, and new abilities to use. You get none of those in this system, you get a few aesthetic changes, some passive changes added, and that is it.
By the way if you read the OP I literally suggest doing 3 of those things that are missing.
For some reason your looking at a picture and assuming it has all the attributes of something similar. It's literally nothing like that, it has none of the major components of that system.
Think there’s a fundamental misunderstanding over this project. Intrepid is giving you access to the development of an MMORPG in the mold of old style games. They are not having the fans make decisions about how the game will be made. Oh they may consider feedback and might even have polls on subjects, but they aren’t designing the game based on what you or I suggest. They might like an idea or two, but an entire class system isn’t up for discussion. We can talk about it, sure, but may as well to do that on Reddit, the cesspit that it is.
The class system they are using is based on a previous game that Steven likes and played. Believe that game ended up with 128 “classes”.
While Stephen has roots in D&D and Pathfinder, this isn’t those games. Wow ain’t it either.
That will definitely happen to a few People who refuse to inform themselves about the Archetype-Class System.
But honestly now -> who in their right Mind would be insane enough " NOT " to inform themselves, when they see something as incredible as " 64 Classes " being promised ?
People should realise there is a bit of a catch. So many Classes ? At Launch ? I wouldn't be surprised if there would never be as many actual "Classes" in any MMO that might still come out in our Lifetimes.
I don't think there will be any real lack of Playstyles only because the finished Game will have just "Eight" actually truly different Classes a.k.a. Archetypes at Launch.
You can give your best to play as a Hero.
Or as a total Scumbag. (lol)
Or as a Mercenary. Defending or attacking Caravans.
Or as a Merchant. A Craftsman. A Storekeeper. A Farmer. A Sailor. A Pirate. A Soldier. A Cultist. An Explorer. An Adventurer. A Daredevil. Or maybe just ... ... ... ... ... ... a mere Citizen - giving his best for his Node.
While You fight countless, scary Creatures, Monsters, maybe even mighty Dragons or Demigod-like, fallen Ancients. Side by Side with your many fellow Node-Citizens.
✓ Occasional Roleplayer
✓ Kinda starting to look for a Guild right now. (German)
Fix implies something is wrong. Not that something is broken.
Your right it isn't except it kinda is since they are working on base classes right now so if we want more base classes now is the time to say something, not after alpha 2 starts in 6 months when they have finished the base classes.
This is a way to look at it. It's their fault that they didn't do the research, you could say that, yeah. Problem is that wont stop them from leaving a one star review and never touching the game ever again, even if the game does eventually implement something they would enjoy.
Now look at it from my perspective, what I am suggesting is adding 3 letters, it costs nothing, would easily be implemented, and would have no effect on development, and only has up sides, and yet zero people are willing to admit this is a no brainer of a change should happen.
Now if that doesn't make you worry about this game I don't know what will. I'll explain why. Item 1 is literally a free win, and I can't even get mild support for it. Because it would be "changing" the game. Now imagine if the devs royally shit the bed. Who's going to correct them? No one on this forum, that's for damn sure. They wont correct some thing that is free, in every way, but they will correct something that adds 6 months of development time and costs 500k? You can try to convince me of that, but I promise you never will. This community will watch the devs steer this ship into an ice berg and cheer them on the whole time and be confused when there getting on life boats.
And no I'm not saying it will happen, or the devs will do it on purpose.
Your right no differences between those classes at all.
You dont know the difference between the words class and role?
Almost pretentious isn't it, thinking that the class system needs fixed when it's not broken. Almost like borderline narcissistic comments like, "Intrepid you can still redeem yourselves in our eyes", like they're aren't some rando on the internet.
And if Shaman is something similar to Warcryer or Over - that's just bard/mage, a debuffers with some magical dmg.
But maybe OP's expectations of those classes is somehow drastically different from the stuff I described above, which is why I asked for a clarification.
Because no group of devs spent 9 years developing an mmo to watch it crash and burn in less then 5 years.
It's normal talking about game designs.
What's not normal is complaining about Alpha Keys and such.
And there is nothing surprising here. Many have expressed concern about the 8x8 combo system.
There are other examples of narcissism in these forums, you should start there.
This is a valid topic. Rare these days, a good change from the ones that feel like a typed delirioum during a sugar rush, that result quickly in a meme fest, rivalring the discord.
Btw Steven also said during the AMA that the class system is something he expects to be changed among others.