Imagine shooting elemental arrows at your opponents. Finally a ranger class I can actually enjoy.
I'm going to use Frost Mage school augments to demonstrate how this class will differ from the base class.
Also, this would be the easiest to do for me, as we don't really have that much info on what other augments will look like, + we already have base Ranger skills to use as examples.
I could really continue with this, and do every single ability, but I think you get the point by now.
Visually your class is very close to a mage, except you are still a Ranger that shoots arrows, with Ranger mechanics, which should be the entire point of the augment system. The fact that abilities stay relatively the same mechanics wise is not an issue at all. Actually, this way you have several ways of playing a mage-like character, and your base class determines the mechanics. Or you could go for an actual Mage, and play with Mage mechanics, with different subclasses to change the way it looks. Options are there everyone.
It may be difficult to understand this for some people because we don't have actual footage of how the following abilities will look with augments. For now, think of Ashe from League of Legends.
Over these past few days, I've heard people say that none of the subclasses will feel unique enough, because augment system is bad, yet if it is going to work anything like my example, then it's simply not true. I also do expect them to change some abilities much more than I did, especially with other archetypes that are not as clear as mage.
And the main thing is, they do need to nail the visual change when using augmented abilities. They should look different, even if they do the same or similar thing mechanically.
There is a decision to be made whether the class will still mainly deal Physical damage, with only applying elemental status effects/debuffs, or should we convert most of the damage to Frost. I'm fine with either option.
Thoughts? Am I too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Delusional?
Ashe from LoL was all you needed to say but I do like the detailed thought on how individual skills are modified to work with the new theme, for example Headshot now procing on Frozen status rather then damage level *chef kiss*
This is a good example of a how multiple modest 'Flavor' changes to skills can if all consistent and focused achive more then the sum of their parts in making your class play differently, in this case the CC effects of Frost give a mechanical bent to the Ranger making them a more crowd control orietend then vanilla ranger. We get a lot of that by leaning on existing mechanics in elemental damage so Mage secondary is kind of 'easy mode' for making distinctions and I agree that other cases will need to make more changes but not that much more if the design is focused.
The only thing I would change is that I don't belive (due to Intrepid realizing the need to downscope) we get 4 augment choices after picking secondary archetype and I'm making all my class fantasies under that assumption (thus 64 of them rather then 255, I have limits). This leads to a problem of how to get all 3 elements into the Ranger.
My solution, adapt the Ranger Hunt system into an elemental selector, the Hunts lose their current bonus and for their duration imbue the rangers basic attacks and skills with Fire, Ice or Lightning effects. So all the effects that would have been under three augments are now in battle options as you swap Hunts on the fly to determine your elemental type. Lossing the Hunts current effect feels like a reasonable cost and is consistent with you not being a pure ranger anymore. It's notable that a lot of other classes also seem to get 'modes' like fighter stances which could similarly be adapted for element selection when a Mage secondary is taken. Due to how elemental effect stack and proc it is desirable to be firing all the same damage type anyways.
Lastly as for damage ratios I think 1/3rd damage switched to the elemental type would be good, your still principaly a physical damage dealer because Ranger base archetype but your dipping into Mages ability to get around physical defense.
Imagine shooting elemental arrows at your opponents. Finally a ranger class I can actually enjoy.
I'm going to use Frost Mage school augments to demonstrate how this class will differ from the base class.
Also, this would be the easiest to do for me, as we don't really have that much info on what other augments will look like, + we already have base Ranger skills to use as examples.
I could really continue with this, and do every single ability, but I think you get the point by now.
Visually your class is very close to a mage, except you are still a Ranger that shoots arrows, with Ranger mechanics, which should be the entire point of the augment system. The fact that abilities stay relatively the same mechanics wise is not an issue at all. Actually, this way you have several ways of playing a mage-like character, and your base class determines the mechanics. Or you could go for an actual Mage, and play with Mage mechanics, with different subclasses to change the way it looks. Options are there everyone.
It may be difficult to understand this for some people because we don't have actual footage of how the following abilities will look with augments. For now, think of Ashe from League of Legends.
Over these past few days, I've heard people say that none of the subclasses will feel unique enough, because augment system is bad, yet if it is going to work anything like my example, then it's simply not true. I also do expect them to change some abilities much more than I did, especially with other archetypes that are not as clear as mage.
And the main thing is, they do need to nail the visual change when using augmented abilities. They should look different, even if they do the same or similar thing mechanically.
There is a decision to be made whether the class will still mainly deal Physical damage, with only applying elemental status effects/debuffs, or should we convert most of the damage to Frost. I'm fine with either option.
Thoughts? Am I too optimistic? Too pessimistic? Delusional?
The only thing I would change is that I don't belivel (due to Intrepid realizing the need to downscope) get 4 augment choices after picking secondary archetype and I'm making all my class fantasies under that assumption. This leads to a problem of how to get all 3 elements into the Ranger.
My solution, adapt the Ranger Hunt system into an elemental selector, the Hunts lose their current bonus and for their duration imbue the rangers basic attacks and skills with Fire, Ice or Lightning effects. So all the effects that would have been under three augments are now in battle options as you swap Hunts on the fly to determine your elemental type. It's notable that a lot of other classes also seem to get a trinity of 'modes' like fighter stances which could similarly be adapted for element selection when a Mage secondary is taken.
Lastly as for damage ratios I think 1/3rd damage switched to the elemental type would be good, your still principaly a physical damage dealer because Ranger base archetype but your dipping into Mages ability to get around physical defense.
My fears are as follows:
- First, they need to redesign thousands of abilities. I know they have a system in place which will allow them to easily do so, but I fear that we might not see enough of a visual difference between abilities. Maybe only a recolor with different particles.
- Second, in order to make the abilities feel different, sound effects will also have to change. I'm not sure if they plan on doing that, because again, that's a lot of work, considering there are so many abilities.
Regarding schools of augments, maybe we can mix and match, maybe we can only use 1 school at a time. We (I) don't know.
Regarding the damage, I'm not sure if that is a good option to mix it like that. The reason being, someone who's fully focused on one damage type, will usually do more damage than a hybrid class. Now this might not be true for Ashes, but I've seen it with many other MMOs (From GW2, to Archeage).
Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to play a hybrid class, that's hopefully viable.
Anyways, since I no longer have an excuse not to do it, quick reference of the associations my mind makes. Those who think MOBAs and Arena Shooters have nothing to do with MMORPGs can just ignore everything down to Summoner, this is just there for shorthand. I purposely didn't quickparse the links into the BBCode versions, sorry.
Summoner/Summoner - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Summoner
Summoner/Tank - FFXI Summoner with appropriate summon active (often Titan, sometimes Garuda), tends to focus on improving 'speed' of being able to use summon abilities, and lowering costs, synergizes well with the effect a specific staff in the old days (Terra Staff, PDT up, cost of Titan being summoned reduced)
Summoner/Fighter - See above, but more likely to have summoned Ifrit and focused on 'Avatar Favor' effect to give party Double Attack trait. Depending on the moonphase, might also summon Fenrir.
Summoner/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Dekker (rare, usually only seen by experts messing around in Offlane), FFXI SMN but most likely to have summoned Shiva, kiting and back to 'lowered costs and more frequent abilities', sometimes FFXI BST but too long to explain the specifics of that
Summoner/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/IggyScorch (being generous here), FFXI Summoner with good mastery of Elemental Spirits, and the NPC - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gariri (who doesn't actually use elemental spirits)
Summoner/Rogue - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Saati with very specific focuses in play and build, FFXI Summoner normally doesn't do this, more likely to summon Garuda, or Ramuh (and if Ramuh, Avatar favor effect for Crit)
Summoner/Cleric - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ying, FFXI standard SMN/WHM, will usually have Leviathan summoned if they really need even more healing.
Summoner/Bard - Other Ying builds, specific Belica builds, FFXI SMN with Fenrir, though their performance is moonphase dependent. Also, those who specialize in rapidly switching summon in a rhythm to use each effect as appropriate buff in turn.
Anyways, since I no longer have an excuse not to do it, quick reference of the associations my mind makes. Those who think MOBAs and Arena Shooters have nothing to do with MMORPGs can just ignore everything down to Summoner, this is just there for shorthand. I purposely didn't quickparse the links into the BBCode versions, sorry.
I certainly do not ascribe to such dismissive attitudes, thouse game types offer very condensed little packages of class fantasy and would be a gold mine for concepts at the broad level that were working with here. I will start going through these but it will obviously take a while, thx for this.
Some Ranger variants, I'll try to get into the habit of giving some insight into the thinking in addition to the raw pitch.
Ranger/Bard Bowsinger
Ovwerwhelmed by the joy of the shared hunt the Bowsinger is no lone wolf, they provide the benifits of their Hunts to nearby allies and when their Mark is downed the whole party exults in restorative and invigorating triumph. Bowsingers make ideal shot callers as they rally a whole team to focus on priority targets.
This is a simple modification, just making the Ranger self buffs into ally buffing in a Bard like fashion. Likewise the Mark system is also turned into a group sustain, likely some HP and Mana, probably varying based on the Mark type, incorporate the Bards sustaining effects in a way that fits a hunting theme. This would be an example of a very simple mechanical changes making a big difference in play.
Ranger/Fighter Strider
While most rangers try to maintain distance to stay exclusivly in ranged combat the Strider has no fear of melee engagement and weaves effortless between the two. Their ranged attacks gain bonus damage and crit chance at short range while their melee attacks likewise benifit when delivered to oponents recently struck by ranged attacks.
This is basically Legolas from the movies, firing at very short range and then going into melee and back again. While any basic ranger could do that the Strider's bonuses make this playstyle the optimum way to play this class and for players who like that mixed melee/range playstyle this is the kind of Ranger to be. I think it would also broadly fit the expectations of players as to what a Ranger/Fighter would be.
Ranger/Rogue Scout
Swifter then the wind the Scout outpaces all others. Their Hunts and abilities focused on speed, maintaing their own stealth and detection of Stealthed oponents making them the ideal information gatherers. While they have lighter damage output then other rangers they maintain good burst damage for hit and run attacks and they coat their arrows with deadly poisons which can paralize and finish off oponents who have been left far behind.
My main inspiration here is the TF2 Scout, admitedly just because it has the name scout so I evokes the idea of using alternating burst of speed, stealth and detection to get in get intel but not nessarily get kills. The idea is that when they do engage in combat it's take out sentries or escape (like some kind of online MetalGear Solid) and thus the emphasis on burst damage and poison from the Rogue comes through to give quick kills or escapes but not a lot of sustained fighting power. Some might think that Ranger/Rogue should be a sniper but I put that gameplay under Rogue/Ranger under the logic that sniping is fundamentally a burst attack from stealth which is core Rogue gameplay, and that if Sniping were the gameplay here then their would be no sufficiently unique gameplay for Rogue/Ranger to differentiate it.
Ranger/Ranger Hawkeye
Perfecting their archery skills to the Hawkeye reaches levels never before dreamed of. Their accuracy, critical hit rate and raw range allow them to win any ranged duel and dispatch melee oponents long before they have a chance to lay a hand on them.
Hawkeye is generally used to denote good eyesight and accurate fire so running with that this is basically the superhuman accuracy fantasy of a Robin Hood or generic elf applied to Ranger to ramp them up to be even more Rangery. As a doubledown class they don't really need new mechanics, but it's important in my opinion for their power ramp to feel differnt from just leveling up, so it's narrower then just doing everything better, they are specifically given a longer range of attack to set them apart from all other Rangers, though this might present balancing issues if the default range is already as high as can be accomadated. Still I think this class might need more.
Cleric/Tank Apostle
A holy martyr willing and able to bear any suffering for the sake of their flock the Apostles ability to heal themself is incredible. They generate extra Divine Power from damage taken and recive bonus HoT and tempoary max hp as well as consuming less mana when self healing. In addition their healing of others establishes a lifelink causing the next hit they take to fall upon the Apostle instead.
Idea here is to be a 'Regen Tank', and out regen the damage rather then mitigate it. That requires first and formost a high HP pool to be able to not be killed in a burst as well as high self healing efficiency, both are rolled into existing healing skills so the Apostle is intended to 'inflate' in battle to a huge hp pool, maybe the highest of any class. I didn't think this class would need much of the traditional tank mechanisms to encourage folks to attack you because in PvP you always go for the healer anyways so a healer who is tanking dosn't need threat/hate mechanics. But it probably dose need SOME ability to protect others if the enemy decides to focus them, thus the heals on others causing damage redirection to you, thus putting your enormouse hp pool between the enemy and your team mates to a degree. Generating divide power on damage taken is a nod to Tanks courage mechainic and makes their self heal potential ramp up when under heavier assault.
As for playstyle it would be be similar to traditional healers in that your spamming thouse heals constantly but more often then normal on yourself, but different in that your not gonna be in the back but now potentially upfront T-posing like a Brazilian statue of Jesus and inviting as much attack as possible, so your gonna be getting some of that Tank gameplay feel. The main difficulty will be mana managment because you don't mitigate incoming damage your group is gonna take more damage and need more healing then with traditional tanks, so that puts a tax on your mana, even with the redused mana cost on selfheals your likely gonna need mana regen support.
I'd have PM'ed you directly but I feel you'd probably just want it here anyway. When you have some time, I still have a reason to want to know if you consider any of these Augments to be at least 'Drastic'. I think the skills are explained sufficiently enough that you probably don't need to look them up.
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
I'd have PM'ed you directly but I feel you'd probably just want it here anyway. When you have some time, I still have a reason to want to know if you consider any of these Augments to be at least 'Drastic'. I think the skills are explained sufficiently enough that you probably don't need to look them up.
Indeed their is enough info to interpret, I would say that that all left be with one work "Perks", the changes are both all buffs and 'Flavor' changes (superfical differences which don't change playstyle). It looks they they are designed to be superficially complex and customizable while actually avoiding altering the underlying gameplay style of the skills but instead to give the player the lttle dopamine hits of "their is my extra proc", "their is my extra damage" etc. It reminded of the Perks in DeepRockGalactic and the clean weapon overclocks. It a lot of design work to make a lot of crunch (and perhapse very fun to optimize) choices which don't run the risk of upsetting any balance or shifting any meta (which can be a good thing if meta is a delicate house of cards already in a state you like).
At most I could see the potential for a more AoE focused vs single target focus play style in thouse options, which presenter even expressed as pve and pvp 'obvious' selections but their no coherent design of an alternative 'kit' from what I can see. Just the potential for players to kind of bend the kit in that direction. But I really have no faith in 'build your own kit' systems, any system capable of the flexibility to make is impossible to balance and invariably results in a meta collapse to a handfull of acceptable options. The game designer must take on the responsibility of designing the kit to be both fun and viable.
But overall I would consider augments that worked like that to be a failure, and possibly the worst kind because it would probably be the result of a long development cycle making all these crunchy changes and carefully testing to ensure they do effectivly nothing. If that level of work is gonna be put in then it really should be to try to use augments to make something that feels like a class.
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.
Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata
Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.
Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata
Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?
I find it fun to theorycraft these things, so here's my example:
Cleric / Bard - depending on which augment school they pick, they could focus on more AoE heals, party/raid buffs, or debuffs to enemies.
Cleric / Cleric - generally enhancing any playstyle they go for, depending on the school they pick. They could focus on more HoTs, more powerful single target heals, or debuff removal, etc.
Cleric / Fighter - melee healer, using shorter range attacks, rather than long range spells, being right in your face, in the middle of the fight, healing allies around them, more of a point blank AoE healer if you will.
Cleric / Mage - depending on the school, they could either enhance allies attacks with certain elements, generally offer utility like barrier, blink, decrease cast time, etc.
Cleric / Ranger - I honestly find it hard to come up with something here. Maybe setting up some heal traps, where allies get healed when they step over them. Something with "Hunts". Maybe imbue allies attacks, so any attacks heal them.
Cleric / Rogue - I imagine this as a stealth / combat ress guy. Maybe also visuals change for a more darker theme, rather than holy. In general focus more around shadows.
Cleric / Summoner - Summon holy spirits that heal allies, maybe even totems?? In general, depending on the school, you could either be focusing on holy stuff, with spirits, or dark/death magic, maybe some health sacrifice to heal allies, while using lifesteal to keep yourself up.
Cleric / Tank - more survivability, more defenses, barriers. This is also your frontline healer, but one that can take a punch or two. Those survivability tools are mostly limited to themselves, although they should have some enhanced barrier they can apply to allies as well.
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.
Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata
Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?
Ashes has implied that there may be some options in the Cleric that allow them to deal damage, and I would think this has to be something outside of 'just' hitting with the weapon. They do have some, but they're all radiant at this time.
As a starter concept from the perspective of 'a Healer who only focuses on healing/damage prevention', these all match my general expectations of how most people would build them.
If you were 'working within the constraints of the few skills we currently know', then I agree with all of it, but the current understanding I have, of the options within the game, some of these would actually be overlapping quite a lot, even with relatively Drastic tier Augments, which is why the point made by others to 'focus it down', is quite valid.
The obvious problem with any game that gives a player choice in abilities, is that they must also offer a reason to not try to take everything other than 'you just can't', in my opinion. And Ashes doesn't use an 'either-or' style of balance.
tl;dr now I'm the one who thinks that these rough outlines aren't compelling enough. Not because these types of healers shouldn't/won't exist, but because 'Augments enhancing them' wouldn't be 'enough' to push them into distinction (because Augments don't cost skill points anymore).
I think if we view it from the perspective of 'if you realize you've built this type of Cleric, choose this secondary archetype/these Racial or Social Augments', is good, but I would hesitate to connect it to 'class fantasy' within the way Ashes builds it (bear in mind that I still don't care about class fantasy or the names Intrepid gives to anything).
The reason I brought the TL information is exactly the same. I know which augments (Skill Specializations) to take because I know which type of healer I am (it's based on gear and Passive skills too, which are not discussed in the video linked).
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.
Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata
Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?
The obvious problem with any game that gives a player choice in abilities, is that they must also offer a reason to not try to take everything other than 'you just can't', in my opinion. And Ashes doesn't use an 'either-or' style of balance.
tl;dr now I'm the one who thinks that these rough outlines aren't compelling enough. Not because these types of healers shouldn't/won't exist, but because 'Augments enhancing them' wouldn't be 'enough' to push them into distinction (because Augments don't cost skill points anymore).
I think if we view it from the perspective of 'if you realize you've built this type of Cleric, choose this secondary archetype/these Racial or Social Augments', is good, but I would hesitate to connect it to 'class fantasy' within the way Ashes builds it (bear in mind that I still don't care about class fantasy or the names Intrepid gives to anything).
The reason I brought the TL information is exactly the same. I know which augments (Skill Specializations) to take because I know which type of healer I am (it's based on gear and Passive skills too, which are not discussed in the video linked).
(also wow I feel like this post is a mess)
The reason to not try to take everything should be, if you take everything, you are not specializing in a certain area, meaning you are less effective overall. You are just picking bits everywhere, without any focus, meaning all the things you picked are not as effective as they could be. (This could also lead to everything being min-maxxed to death, which is also not great, depending on the implementation) - But I'm sure you know this, I just wanted to give an example.
It could be done in many ways, with skill levels (leveling up a skill multiple times to improve it), passives focusing on certain abilities or certain stats/playstyle, etc. Trees, where you only focus on a certain branch, etc.
At the same time, this could also limit you in many ways, where you just have to pick certain options, in fear of not being efficient enough, or rather it pushes you down a certain path, where you just have to take the rest of the stuff down that path, even if you don't want to.
It's a balancing act really, in many ways.
Now I'm sure this will come down the line, once they actually design skill/passive skill trees, and the augment system. I think the skill trees we have now are just a placeholder, or rather those will change many times before release.
A key part to all of this is visual changes, which will further make "subclasses" more distinct from one another. That's it's important for the augment system to provide meaningful visual changes, whether each subclass has a certain theme, or just visual changes depending on which exact augment school you use.
So a playstyle difference, where each subclass has a specific focus, and visual and (hopefully) sound changes to abilities, is really enough to make classes really feel unique and distinct from one another.
Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.
I think the arguments will play one part of that. The Bards damage shield, also skill that do things like adding a HP container incress etc. Augmented with Tank could shorten the cast time on these skills. Make them add 10% more buffing.
Couple this with Weapons and armour types. Could make a Bard that players in the thick of the frount line. Buffing to help mitigate damage of that frount line. Helping push that front line forward towards victory.
I say this because it was mentioned that the A2 players are really enjoying how weapons and armor types have added allot of depth to their classes and changing their play style. We are only starting to scratch the surface of what makes a class.
Personally I think classes should be compelling characters on their own and also have abilities that fit well with different group setups. For example, one tank class could have an AoE ability that reduces damage, which would be great for a team with a bunch of melee fighters, like swordsmen and heavily armored healers.
On the other hand, a group with an Enchanter who can restore mana to everyone would work really well with lots of spellcasters. In this case, a Spellshield could be a good choice for a tank to pair with the Enchanter.
My dream build. My wife loves playing a mage and setting the world on fire. I like to find ways to complement her play style. To tank for her or doing more damage or just keeping her alive.
Ashes makes me able to do all these things in my favorite class, the Bard.
My hopes are this: will post my second build I want later.
First, Bard/Bard. For grouping and raiding. Backline Brad focused or lowering cast time, mana regen, CC package roots, snares and sleeps to keep forces off the casters. Also boosting the Bards run buffs to also help with mobility. This Bard would take a hit in not healing healing would take a slight hit, trading sme of the HP regen to add a split on that song 1/2 to healing and 1/2 for mana regen that stacks with the mana regen song.
I would build this with light armour for the augments for speed. And a ranged wand, book for keeping up with DPE that the Casters and Rangers all at max distance that I am supporting.
Mage and fighter or tank hybrid - along the lines of Unchained Sienna from Vermintide 2 game. A fire mage which walks a thin line between staying in control and getting consumed by the fire magic. A capable melee fighter, who's melee power is augmented when they use their magic first.
Cleric and fighter or tank hybrid - a capable melee fighter able to feed its healing and other support abilities by staying on the frontline, dishing out melee damage and supporting its allies.
Inquisitor class similar to Pathfinder inq, a witch hunter archetype.
Zealot class - basically a religious fanatic. Something between a berserker and a firebrand not particularly tolerant cleric.
So yes, I bounce between heretical magic users who can barely control their power, and religious dogmatic zealots quite a bit
I find it fun to theorycraft these things, so here's my example:
Cleric / Bard - depending on which augment school they pick, they could focus on more AoE heals, party/raid buffs, or debuffs to enemies.
Cleric / Cleric - generally enhancing any playstyle they go for, depending on the school they pick. They could focus on more HoTs, more powerful single target heals, or debuff removal, etc.
Cleric / Fighter - melee healer, using shorter range attacks, rather than long range spells, being right in your face, in the middle of the fight, healing allies around them, more of a point blank AoE healer if you will.
Cleric / Mage - depending on the school, they could either enhance allies attacks with certain elements, generally offer utility like barrier, blink, decrease cast time, etc.
Cleric / Ranger - I honestly find it hard to come up with something here. Maybe setting up some heal traps, where allies get healed when they step over them. Something with "Hunts". Maybe imbue allies attacks, so any attacks heal them.
Cleric / Rogue - I imagine this as a stealth / combat ress guy. Maybe also visuals change for a more darker theme, rather than holy. In general focus more around shadows.
Cleric / Summoner - Summon holy spirits that heal allies, maybe even totems?? In general, depending on the school, you could either be focusing on holy stuff, with spirits, or dark/death magic, maybe some health sacrifice to heal allies, while using lifesteal to keep yourself up.
Cleric / Tank - more survivability, more defenses, barriers. This is also your frontline healer, but one that can take a punch or two. Those survivability tools are mostly limited to themselves, although they should have some enhanced barrier they can apply to allies as well.
Quite a lot of overlap with my own thoughts so I'll focus on where I see differences and oportunities I missed. Note that I am assuming the dropping of '4 augment' options because I do not belive it is remotely possible to create 32 meaningful variations no matter how hard one tries, I'm aiming for a singular playstyle concept though this may consist of a kit with more then one capability in it.
Cleric/Bard and Cleric/Fighter look like a match with my thoughts with the exception of a debuffing option on Cleric/Bard. I wound't say that they should lack debuffs but that seems unlikely to be any more heavily emphasized then it is with the Bard and most of it's debuffs are more soft mezmerize, sleeps etc.
Cleric/Cleric generally lacks focus, the curse of the doubledown class. I focused on debuff removal more because it was the only thing left after thinking about all other varients and it felt like a thematic fit for something called a 'High Priest'. I admit to being influenced by Aqua from Konosuba.
The Cleric/Mage as a buffer of allies with elements seems a bit of a stretch to me. Mages do not currently have a lot of buffing play (though their is a good argument that they should) so this feels inconsistent with the secondary archetype. Also barrier is a Tank feature. The Cast time improvements sound promissing though but not sure if that should be for themselves or a buff they give, also is it not redundant with divine power mechanic?
Cleric/Ranger a 'Heal trap' is an interesting idea, I presume it's functionally like thouse Diablo heal globs you can walk over. Throwing these down would allow your party members to kind of manage their own healing by moving and the Cleric can essentially 'bank' some healing before it's actually needed. Not sure if Cleric/Ranger is the ideal place to put such an ability though. My own thoughts were initially Ana from overwatch 'heal sniping' and that evolved to just a classic single target rapid healer who can do the 'rescue' heal job.
Cleric/Rogue I had genuinely not considered the possibility of 'sneaking' healing, it seems limited to me because unless your in full stealth the whole time what's the benift? Your not jumping out from stealth and downing an enemy in a burst of damage and then escaping. A healer needs to stay with their team. This is why I leaned towards debuffing as a broad concept over focusing on rogue like stealth mechanics. Admittedly Rogue is not primarily a debuffer but they do often have poison and DoT's so it's not completly incongrous.
Cleric/Summoner I had not considered mobile healing entities, having singled in on totemic systems because of the name Shaman, but this might be a valid option with a Shaman healing system, call them 'ancestral spirits' or something.
Cleric/Tank I kinda wanted to make sure this did not stray too close to Paladin aka Tank/Cleric. So I denied it any damage mitigation which a Paladin would have a lot of and set up the 'tank with health regen' concept.
I find it fun to theorycraft these things, so here's my example:
Cleric / Bard - depending on which augment school they pick, they could focus on more AoE heals, party/raid buffs, or debuffs to enemies.
Cleric / Cleric - generally enhancing any playstyle they go for, depending on the school they pick. They could focus on more HoTs, more powerful single target heals, or debuff removal, etc.
Cleric / Fighter - melee healer, using shorter range attacks, rather than long range spells, being right in your face, in the middle of the fight, healing allies around them, more of a point blank AoE healer if you will.
Cleric / Mage - depending on the school, they could either enhance allies attacks with certain elements, generally offer utility like barrier, blink, decrease cast time, etc.
Cleric / Ranger - I honestly find it hard to come up with something here. Maybe setting up some heal traps, where allies get healed when they step over them. Something with "Hunts". Maybe imbue allies attacks, so any attacks heal them.
Cleric / Rogue - I imagine this as a stealth / combat ress guy. Maybe also visuals change for a more darker theme, rather than holy. In general focus more around shadows.
Cleric / Summoner - Summon holy spirits that heal allies, maybe even totems?? In general, depending on the school, you could either be focusing on holy stuff, with spirits, or dark/death magic, maybe some health sacrifice to heal allies, while using lifesteal to keep yourself up.
Cleric / Tank - more survivability, more defenses, barriers. This is also your frontline healer, but one that can take a punch or two. Those survivability tools are mostly limited to themselves, although they should have some enhanced barrier they can apply to allies as well.
Quite a lot of overlap with my own thoughts so I'll focus on where I see differences and oportunities I missed. Note that I am assuming the dropping of '4 augment' options because I do not belive it is remotely possible to create 32 meaningful variations no matter how hard one tries, I'm aiming for a singular playstyle concept though this may consist of a kit with more then one capability in it.
Cleric/Bard and Cleric/Fighter look like a match with my thoughts with the exception of a debuffing option on Cleric/Bard. I wound't say that they should lack debuffs but that seems unlikely to be any more heavily emphasized then it is with the Bard and most of it's debuffs are more soft mezmerize, sleeps etc.
Cleric/Cleric generally lacks focus, the curse of the doubledown class. I focused on debuff removal more because it was the only thing left after thinking about all other varients and it felt like a thematic fit for something called a 'High Priest'. I admit to being influenced by Aqua from Konosuba.
The Cleric/Mage as a buffer of allies with elements seems a bit of a stretch to me. Mages do not currently have a lot of buffing play (though their is a good argument that they should) so this feels inconsistent with the secondary archetype. Also barrier is a Tank feature. The Cast time improvements sound promissing though but not sure if that should be for themselves or a buff.
Cleric/Ranger a 'Heal trap' is an interesting idea, I presume it's functionally like thouse Diablo heal globs you can walk over. Throwing these down would allow your party members to kind of manage their own healing by moving and the Cleric can essentially 'bank' some healing before it's actually needed. Not sure if Ranger is the ideal place to put it. My own thoughts were initially Ana from overwatch 'heal sniping' and that evolved to just a classic single target rapid healer who can do the 'rescue' heal job.
Cleric/Rogue I had genuinely not considered the possibility of 'sneaking' healing, it seems limited to me because unless your in full stealth the whole time what's the benift? Your not jumping out from stealth and downing an enemy in a burst of damage and then escaping. A healer needs to stay with their team. This is why I leaned towards debuffing as a broad concept over focusing on rogue like stealth mechanics. Admittedly Rogue is not primarily a debuffer but they do often have poison and DoT's so it's not completly incongrous.
Cleric/Summoner I had not considered mobile healing entities, having singled in on totemic systems because of the name Shaman, but this might be a valid option with a Shaman healing system, call them 'ancestral spirits' or something.
Cleric/Tank I kinda wanted to make sure this did not stray too close to Paladin aka Tank/Cleric. So I denied it any damage mitigation which a Paladin would have a lot of and set up the 'tank with health regen' concept.
To be fair, we can design several examples that would work, and we might get nothing close to that in the actual game.
That's why I can't actually wait to see some examples or some more information, because I'm going to go crazy with theorycrafting multiple classes/specs, because I can base it off of something, rather than nothing, like I'm doing now.
That's why I can't actually wait to see some examples or some more information, because I'm going to go crazy with theorycrafting multiple classes/specs, because I can base it off of something, rather than nothing, like I'm doing now.
Well for our theory crafting to be usefull to Intrepid, should they be reading the thread, I think the goal is to the best of our abilities lay out of a portfolio of playstyle variation which fully cover player expectations. Intrepid will not want to be designing in a vacum of only their own fantasies, nor do they need to be spoonfed all the specifics of implementation which is why I don't feel we need to go deeper then descriptive blurbs.
With these healing concepts are we covering all the healer styles and fantasies? Would their be players who look at this set and say "My kind of healer fantasy got neglected". I don't primarily play healers (and even if I did I would probably have a specific narrow preference on how) so I'm trying to be cognazant of my blind spots, what I can do is look at common variations that already exist in game and try to boil them down to a representative set which gives maximum coverage because it's unlikely that anyone has a healer fantasy which is not already implemented in an existing game.
Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.
I think the arguments will play one part of that. The Bards damage shield, also skill that do things like adding a HP container incress etc. Augmented with Tank could shorten the cast time on these skills. Make them add 10% more buffing.
Couple this with Weapons and armour types. Could make a Bard that players in the thick of the frount line. Buffing to help mitigate damage of that frount line. Helping push that front line forward towards victory.
I say this because it was mentioned that the A2 players are really enjoying how weapons and armor types have added allot of depth to their classes and changing their play style. We are only starting to scratch the surface of what makes a class.
Given that armore/weapon flexibility is universal, and should stay that way for all classes. I don't generally feel the need to address it in a class fantasy unless their is a specific interaction. For example Paladins getting a bonus to shield blocking as a class feature. I want to keep even thouse to a minimum so as not to create a defacto 'mandatory' equipment pattern, in the case of Paladins their shielding is so Iconic that it's ok, the same way Rangers kinda are mandated to use bows.
With regard to the Bard/Tank I wanted to focus on the concept of a 'Mezmerizer Tank', aka one which achives the goal of Tanking by stopping attacks from being made rather then taking the attacks. Such a class COULD be built with heavier armor but they dont need to be.
My dream build. My wife loves playing a mage and setting the world on fire. I like to find ways to complement her play style. To tank for her or doing more damage or just keeping her alive.
Ashes makes me able to do all these things in my favorite class, the Bard.
My hopes are this: will post my second build I want later.
First, Bard/Bard. For grouping and raiding. Backline Brad focused or lowering cast time, mana regen, CC package roots, snares and sleeps to keep forces off the casters. Also boosting the Bards run buffs to also help with mobility. This Bard would take a hit in not healing healing would take a slight hit, trading sme of the HP regen to add a split on that song 1/2 to healing and 1/2 for mana regen that stacks with the mana regen song.
I would build this with light armour for the augments for speed. And a ranged wand, book for keeping up with DPE that the Casters and Rangers all at max distance that I am supporting.
I like the idea of Bard/Bard being able to reduce friendly skill cooldowns, it is a universally useful benifit and the kind of thing that can make a doubledown class feel unique from the base archetype, a 'capstone' kind of ability which don'st just feel like being a few levels higher.
Another thing, remember how everyone kept saying that playing 2 melodies at a time ok but 3 would be REALLY cool. I guarantee you that's gonna be an augment and Bard/Bard is the logical class to get it. So you can probably run movement speed, healing and mana regen all at the same time.
I am a pretty vanilla guy in gaming.
Give me human for a race, with medieval looks, even though I am not from northern europe.
And give me a class with melee abilities, with animations that look good on twin swords, 2handed or sword shield.
I want from my class to be able to make a character that shines on the field of battle, mostly on small scale and duels, using a mastery of swords, and the tools to respond to the majority of enemy types, so that I can achieve victory.
I dont care for magic, I dont care for ranged attacks.
Same here.
Thinking about Weapon Master or Highsword at the moment, if its meaningful with twohanded weapon, mainly sword, but I guess so.
Paladin or Knight, so main class Tank, perhaps is an alternative option, but DPS wise I expect that Fighter is (should be) ahead.
That‘s why Highsword currently is raising my attention, hoping to get a Fighter with some little self heal abilities or some that heal others around / surrounding during melee combat. We will see.
He will look like my avatar than, roleplay wise ;-)
But I’m also waiting for rogue gameplay later on, as Warrior/Fighter and Rogue/Assassin always were my favorite classes in all MMOs I‘ve played.
Bard/Tank - Sirens are able to produce such aluring performances that enemies at short range are compelled to follow the Siren in a trance state for a limited distance. So long as the tranced arn't attacked they will stop attacking and can be lead away. In this way they controls and nulifies enemy aggression while providing a way to pull apart enemy groups.
I think the arguments will play one part of that. The Bards damage shield, also skill that do things like adding a HP container incress etc. Augmented with Tank could shorten the cast time on these skills. Make them add 10% more buffing.
Couple this with Weapons and armour types. Could make a Bard that players in the thick of the frount line. Buffing to help mitigate damage of that frount line. Helping push that front line forward towards victory.
I say this because it was mentioned that the A2 players are really enjoying how weapons and armor types have added allot of depth to their classes and changing their play style. We are only starting to scratch the surface of what makes a class.
Given that armore/weapon flexibility is universal, and should stay that way for all classes. I don't generally feel the need to address it in a class fantasy unless their is a specific interaction. For example Paladins getting a bonus to shield blocking as a class feature. I want to keep even thouse to a minimum so as not to create a defacto 'mandatory' equipment pattern, in the case of Paladins their shielding is so Iconic that it's ok, the same way Rangers kinda are mandated to use bows.
With regard to the Bard/Tank I wanted to focus on the concept of a 'Mezmerizer Tank', aka one which achives the goal of Tanking by stopping attacks from being made rather then taking the attacks. Such a class COULD be built with heavier armor but they dont need to be.
My dream build. My wife loves playing a mage and setting the world on fire. I like to find ways to complement her play style. To tank for her or doing more damage or just keeping her alive.
Ashes makes me able to do all these things in my favorite class, the Bard.
My hopes are this: will post my second build I want later.
First, Bard/Bard. For grouping and raiding. Backline Brad focused or lowering cast time, mana regen, CC package roots, snares and sleeps to keep forces off the casters. Also boosting the Bards run buffs to also help with mobility. This Bard would take a hit in not healing healing would take a slight hit, trading sme of the HP regen to add a split on that song 1/2 to healing and 1/2 for mana regen that stacks with the mana regen song.
I would build this with light armour for the augments for speed. And a ranged wand, book for keeping up with DPE that the Casters and Rangers all at max distance that I am supporting.
I like the idea of Bard/Bard being able to reduce friendly skill cooldowns, it is a universally useful benifit and the kind of thing that can make a doubledown class feel unique from the base archetype, a 'capstone' kind of ability which don'st just feel like being a few levels higher.
Another thing, remember how everyone kept saying that playing 2 melodies at a time ok but 3 would be REALLY cool. I guarantee you that's gonna be an augment and Bard/Bard is the logical class to get it. So you can probably run movement speed, healing and mana regen all at the same time.
If your talking Mez tanking, what will that do to diminishing returns? You can't mez a target a 3rd time with the same skill. Also Steven has mentioned locking people down for a long time is not fun game play. What's your thoughts?
If your talking Mez tanking, what will that do to diminishing returns? You can't mez a target a 3rd time with the same skill. Also Steven has mentioned locking people down for a long time is not fun game play. What's your thoughts?
Simple, the class is weak in larger scale sustained pvp. If your group can't win in the opening mez period your Siren opens up then you blew your chance. Mez tanking is likely to be most effective in small and medium sized groups such as a 4v4 where you can lockdown 2 of them and then you Bard buffed companions can takeout the enemy 3 v 2 and then repeat. In PvE the Mez tank should be fun and distinct play style.
I'm generally less concerned with how every class plays in pvp because, 1) Were told that you can change your secondary so this should allow people to switch into what ever the pvp meta is before any big battle and 2) Your still able to perform your core role in pvp such as the Siren doing party buffing so the class should retain most of it's effectivenss even if the secondary archetype splash is hit or miss.
I am a pretty vanilla guy in gaming.
Give me human for a race, with medieval looks, even though I am not from northern europe.
And give me a class with melee abilities, with animations that look good on twin swords, 2handed or sword shield.
I want from my class to be able to make a character that shines on the field of battle, mostly on small scale and duels, using a mastery of swords, and the tools to respond to the majority of enemy types, so that I can achieve victory.
I dont care for magic, I dont care for ranged attacks.
Same here.
Thinking about Weapon Master or Highsword at the moment, if its meaningful with twohanded weapon, mainly sword, but I guess so.
Paladin or Knight, so main class Tank, perhaps is an alternative option, but DPS wise I expect that Fighter is (should be) ahead.
That‘s why Highsword currently is raising my attention, hoping to get a Fighter with some little self heal abilities or some that heal others around / surrounding during melee combat. We will see.
He will look like my avatar than, roleplay wise ;-)
But I’m also waiting for rogue gameplay later on, as Warrior/Fighter and Rogue/Assassin always were my favorite classes in all MMOs I‘ve played.
Fighter/Cleric Highsword
Master of endurance and sustained fighting the Highswords augments skilled melee fighting techniques with ample ability to clense away negative damage inducing status effects and debuffs from themselves. Their combat stances allow for limited self healing options and by expending combat Momentum they can deal Radiant damage. The Highsword is notably a loner in battle, neither giving nor depending on allied aid, thus allowing them to be positive contribution to even hastily created parties with no time to develop strong teamwork.
I think most classes with Cleric secondary should have some 'off-cleric' ability to heal others but felt that this was a place where self-healing only was mandated to prevent his class from mass synergizing with itself and snowballing. Also helps make it very distinct from Paladins and Templar which DO do a lot of allied healing. Likewise the self debuff clensing was emphasized over the self healing aspect, which is preventing damage before it happens (damage inducing would mean any status effect that could directly casue damage or incresse the amount taken from a source), the use of Stances for healing is ment to take away some of their damage output and CC reduction. Vulnorability to CC is their main weakness as their debuff clense dosn't work on it, but they can regen and minimize damage effects while CCed so they likely come out of the CC with health comperable to other classes which just break CC faster. I get a haught 'Jerk Nobleman' kind of vibe from these guys and the name 'high sword' and the highly self-reliant nature fits that and I think will fit what most Melee DPS players want from Cleric secondary, which is to obsolete their support needs rather then to actually do any support play.
Fighter/Fighter Weapon Master
None can match the Weapon Master in the art of perrying, they gain shield like blocking from properly timed weapon attacks allowing them to weild two handed weapons at reduced risk. In addition their stances can provide greater weapon reach and movement speed allowing them to srike first in most situations. When facing only melee oponents their skills are such that they can emerge completly unscathed if timing and luck are on their side.
This concept is a bit more speculative on action combat mechancis, specifically the addition of perry mechanics and modifying weapon reach properties. If that's something Intrepid can and would do then this class represents a leaning in on Action combat mechanics, providing a modest edge in movement and reach which a skilled player would treat like a game of Street Fighter to do disproportionate damage in melee. This is intended to be a high skill floor high skill cap class and is going to be tricky to balance. I get a Wuxia martial arts master vibe from these guys and I think that fufills the promise of 'weapon master' quite well in that they are really focused around just delivering constant basic attacks, their active skills might hardly get any changes from the base archetype. Being pincussioned with ranged attacks or magic are their main weaknesses which should hopefully take down even the most skilled eventually.
I invite those intrerested in your future AoC characters, which is obvious since you started your own threads on a topic that for years didnt get a serious attention from the community, to join this proposal.
Mage/Fighter - Battle Mages specialize in touch delivered magical attacks and short range fan blast effects. Combined with the robustness to survive in the front lines of battle the Battle Mage is excellent at confronting clustered frontline combatants who typically lack good elemental resistance.
Rogue/Cleric - Cultists focus on long casting time high impact dark rituals cast while in stealth. Their rituals can empower themselves and allies with short lived temporary Health and lifesteal abilities to unleash in deadly surprise attacks if they can complete their castings before being detected.
Summoner/Mage - Spellmancers summon elemental themed minions which deal elemental damage and can use their minions as the location for creating AoE spell effects by dispelling the minion in a burst of magical energy. Minions felled in battle by the enemy likewise burst making them all effectivly walking magical bombs thrown at the enemy ranks.
What similar class fantasies can other folks imagine?
My view is that your main class should shape your archetype more than anything.
Mage/Fighter Basically still a ranged class that uses melee for finishers or maybe jump in and out combat. Fighter/Mage -More agile warrior that enhances his melee attacks with magic
Rogue/Cleric Agile rogue that does burst of blinding holy magic. Flashes of light and all that jazz for Daze, Blind effects... or if you build it in some sort of shadow leaning cleric the opposite. Maybe it casts something like Darkness to blind opponents. Cleric/Rogue Cleric that can briefly slip and and out of stealth to prevent damage. Maybe even making players have this shadow form where they take less damage or make them invisible for short time.
Summoner/Mage - My thoughts exactly. Summoner that uses different elementals for different occassions. Mage/Summoner - (Warlock) Summoner of demons that briefly stay on Vera's plain. Maybe some form of chaos damage is in order, because all the lifesteal related spells for pure caster should be reserved for Necromancer
I agree the primary archetype is dominant and determines ones role. But the question is how narrowly do we define role.
For example is the role of a Mage to be a long distance burst attacker, or to be a magic damage attacker, or to be a long range magic damage attacker, or to be a long ranged AoE magical damage attacker. I choose to interpret a secondary archetype as being able to change one major element of the formla at a time. If every element had to be present at all times then no meaningful variation can exist. Still some parts are sacrosanct, for a Mage its magic. For a fighter its 'hit it with my sword'.
In the case of Mage/Fighter it's to replace 'long range' with 'short range', other combos like Mage/Ranger take away AoE and become single target oriented while retaining long range. Most elements remains the same but change needs to be relevent not tacked on. A Mage/Fighter who is just a base Mage + can now melee is pointless because you just stay in the back row firing at long range that has wasted melee potential. It's like putting a bayonet on an artilery piece, vs making the mage a flamethrower. If thats not your cup of tea then go Wizard (I agree they should drop Arch) and be a tactical nuke launcher.
As for Rogue/Cleric pairings. I see the essence of Rogue to be surprise attacking generally with a lot of preperation before hand in stealth, positioning buffing etc to allow a rapid win once fighting commences. Guided by the name lead to the idea of casting before fighting and Cleric magic be incorporated in that was HP inflation before battle before you jump out and do a fairly standard Rogue stab-fest but with this pre-healing done to yourself and party to make you win that brief fight, but no sustained healing so if the surprise dosn't work your SOL.
Cleric/Rogue I see as more the class to be spamming out the debuffs, remember the class has to work by modification of Cleric skills so giving them alternative effects when cast on foes lets them both heal and debuff as needed. Escape by stealth is less important as I don't feel all Rogue secondary classes need to be stealth oriented, I understand how support players wish for a 'I don't die' button, but it's ultimatly not enough to distinquish a class and I feel it is too passive and denies counterplay to the oposing team. So I focus more on debuffing for Cleric/Rogue and Bard/Rogue.
Summoner/Mage Note that 'different summons for different occasions' is something I think will be universal to all Summoners. All would have a skill for 'Melee DPS summon', 'ranged attacker summon', 'Tanky summon'. These basic catagories are just thematically turned into elementals that deal elemental damage and the twist is that they explode too.
Mage/Summoner this one is tricky, I don't really like demon summons as I think Summoner secondary should only get a single 'pet' at most and a demon sounds too strong, though I can see how it fits the name warlock. I'd be more inclined to have them create more semi-permanant battlefield effects like Wall-of-Fire and the like or to get fireballs that have homing abilities.
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DygzMember, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One
I agree the primary archetype is dominant and determines ones role. But the question is how narrowly do we define role.
For example is the role of a Mage to be a long distance burst attacker, or to be a magic damage attacker, or to be a long range magic damage attacker, or to be a long ranged AoE magical damage attacker. I choose to interpret a secondary archetype as being able to change one major element of the formla at a time. If every element had to be present at all times then no meaningful variation can exist. Still some parts are sacrosanct, for a Mage its magic. For a fighter its 'hit it with my sword'.
Mage focuses on Ranged, Burst (Crits), Elemental Damage and also has Teleports.
Fighter focuses on moving around the battlefield dealing Physical Damage and Wounds, applying Riled and Shaken and proccing Damage Mitigation.
Mage/Fighter will likely have Augments that are weaker versions of:
Whirlwind - which would likely add Physical Damage when applied to Ball Lightning or . It would likely add some Damage Mitigation when applied to Arcane Circle or Blink
Battle Cry/Cataclysm - which will apply Riled/Shaken
Brutality - there may be Augments which inflict Wounds
Some Fighter Augments could change some Mage Active Skills from Ranged to Melee, yes.
I don't know what you mean by "changing one major element at a time".
Secondary Archetype provides Augments that can be applied to Active Skills - allowing the player to do some stuff the Secondary Archetype can do while they are using their Primary Archetype Active Skills.
In Ashes, any Class can use any weapon. Fighter is more about dealing Physical Damage than it is about wielding a Sword, but sure... A Battle Mage could wield a Sword. Battle Mage will still primarily be a Mage who can also do some Fighter stuff on top of the Mage Active Skills.
In Ashes, primary role is defined by the Primary Archetype Active Skills.
Comments
Ashe from LoL was all you needed to say but I do like the detailed thought on how individual skills are modified to work with the new theme, for example Headshot now procing on Frozen status rather then damage level *chef kiss*
This is a good example of a how multiple modest 'Flavor' changes to skills can if all consistent and focused achive more then the sum of their parts in making your class play differently, in this case the CC effects of Frost give a mechanical bent to the Ranger making them a more crowd control orietend then vanilla ranger. We get a lot of that by leaning on existing mechanics in elemental damage so Mage secondary is kind of 'easy mode' for making distinctions and I agree that other cases will need to make more changes but not that much more if the design is focused.
The only thing I would change is that I don't belive (due to Intrepid realizing the need to downscope) we get 4 augment choices after picking secondary archetype and I'm making all my class fantasies under that assumption (thus 64 of them rather then 255, I have limits). This leads to a problem of how to get all 3 elements into the Ranger.
My solution, adapt the Ranger Hunt system into an elemental selector, the Hunts lose their current bonus and for their duration imbue the rangers basic attacks and skills with Fire, Ice or Lightning effects. So all the effects that would have been under three augments are now in battle options as you swap Hunts on the fly to determine your elemental type. Lossing the Hunts current effect feels like a reasonable cost and is consistent with you not being a pure ranger anymore. It's notable that a lot of other classes also seem to get 'modes' like fighter stances which could similarly be adapted for element selection when a Mage secondary is taken. Due to how elemental effect stack and proc it is desirable to be firing all the same damage type anyways.
Lastly as for damage ratios I think 1/3rd damage switched to the elemental type would be good, your still principaly a physical damage dealer because Ranger base archetype but your dipping into Mages ability to get around physical defense.
My fears are as follows:
- First, they need to redesign thousands of abilities. I know they have a system in place which will allow them to easily do so, but I fear that we might not see enough of a visual difference between abilities. Maybe only a recolor with different particles.
- Second, in order to make the abilities feel different, sound effects will also have to change. I'm not sure if they plan on doing that, because again, that's a lot of work, considering there are so many abilities.
Regarding schools of augments, maybe we can mix and match, maybe we can only use 1 school at a time. We (I) don't know.
Regarding the damage, I'm not sure if that is a good option to mix it like that. The reason being, someone who's fully focused on one damage type, will usually do more damage than a hybrid class. Now this might not be true for Ashes, but I've seen it with many other MMOs (From GW2, to Archeage).
Don't get me wrong, I would absolutely love to play a hybrid class, that's hopefully viable.
Tank/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Riktor, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Makoa, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior (but with Paladin as sub, at higher levels. It's hard to explain, like most deeper MMO stuff, obviously)
Tank/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Greystone, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Terminus, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Samurai (tank builds, uncommon)
Tank/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Khaimera (heavy tank builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ninja (technically this should be Warrior with Ninja sub if talking about ye olde days), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Nyx
Tank/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Terra (most builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Dragoon (later, assuming Sentinels even get pet stuff)
Tank/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sevarog (certain oppression builds - minimal/no passive damage), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Rune_Fencer (or PLD/RDM, RDM/PLD, etc)
Tank/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sevarog (regeneration builds, but there's no more Wellspring), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Torvald, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Paladin
Tank/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Steel (really specific buff+debuff builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Khan
Tank/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kwang (kind of a stretch but if you really know what you're doing...), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Inara, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Beastmaster (using one of their tanky pets and building as tank as possible themselves)
Fighter/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Rampage, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Raum, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Warrior (purest concept)
Fighter/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ash, give FFXI WAR a 1hAxe and shield but any reasonable defensive subjob
Fighter/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/FengMao, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ash, give FFXI WAR two 1hAxes (or 1 axe one sword, whatever you like really) and subjob Ninja, or any good 2H weapon and subjob Thief (but you still won't get good evasion really)
Fighter/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zarus (as sustain-opener), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Tiberius, FFXI WAR with Ranger Subjob and a fast Crossbow
Fighter/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Crunch, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Azaan (certain builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Red_Mage with Warrior subjob (or Ninja if you like fast weapons, Dark Knight if you prefer slower)
Fighter/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Khaimera, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Torvald, FFXI Red Mage or Blue Mage in most melee forms,
Fighter/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux (specific debuff stack build), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Octavia, FFXI WAR with GreatAxe specifically and Dancer subjob
Fighter/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Grux (specific debuff stack build), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Barik, FFXI Beastmaster with one of their offense pet options maybe
Rogue/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kallari, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Koga, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Thief with Ninja subjob for max Rogue-ing
Rogue/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Shinbi (most builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Androxus,
https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ninja with Warrior subjob (usually. THF/WAR also works)
Rogue/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Serath (most builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Zhin,
as you'd expect, FFXI THF/WAR
Rogue/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zarus (as assassin-closer), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vatu, FFXI THF/RNG with the right gun or THF/SAM in early game for reasons
Rogue/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Countess, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Talus, FFXI NIN/RDM usually
Rogue/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kallari (really specific builds, Crunch too, very specific), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Maeve (lifesteal and healing), FFXI NIN/WHM (but you only need/use this if you need cleanses and they're either very good or later levels, not from ye olde days)
Rogue/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Shinbi (the other builds)
Rogue/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora (certain weird builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kasumi, FFXI Beastmaster or Dragoon with certain builds later game
Ranger/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Murdock, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kinessa, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Ranger
Ranger/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/GRIMexe, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ruckus
Ranger/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Sparrow, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Tyra, FFXI RNG/WAR, as you'd expect
Ranger/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Wraith, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Strix
Ranger/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Revenant, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/VII, FFXI RNG specializing in elemental arrows and damage setups (sometimes RNG/SAM)
Ranger/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Kira (lifesteal builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Mal'Damba, FFXI RNG/DNC
Ranger/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Drongo (debuff builds), a different way of using FFXI RNG/DNC
Ranger/Summoner - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Saati, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vivian sorta
Mage/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gideon, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Willo, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Black_Mage usually with Scholar subjob
Mage/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora sorta, also Fey if built for Tanking/Sieging, FFXI BLM/BLU
Mage/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Aurora the rest of the time, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Vora, FFXI Dark Knight in some situations
Mage/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gadget (debatable, but overall turns out this way), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Kasumi depending on interpretation
Mage/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Argus, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Evie
Mage/Cleric - https://omeda.city/heroes/Countess (lifesteal focus builds), FFXI BLM/WHM
Mage/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Muriel,
Mage/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/LtBelica, FFXI BLM/SMN (but only some NPCs, actually - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Kayeel-Payeel_(S), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Vee_Qiqa_the_Decreer - players are not allowed to have their level of power)
Cleric/Cleric - (Predecessor isn't 'allowed' to have pure healing often, but Sevarog/Muriel could previously get close), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Jenos, https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/White_Mage often with Scholar subjob
Cleric/Tank - strong healing builds from https://omeda.city/heroes/Riktor, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Furia, WHM/RDM or RDM/WHM
Cleric/Fighter - https://omeda.city/heroes/Crunch (crazy players with crazy builds, previously), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Grover, FFXI WHM has various paths to this
Cleric/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Zinx, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Io
Cleric/Mage - This depends too much on a player's definition of 'Mage', but FFXI WHM/BLM was popular for various, and https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Scholar with Black Mage subjob also.
Cleric/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Phase (recently balanced to be even moreso this), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Seris (probably my bias, so also mentioning https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Corvus)
Cleric/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (specific builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Rei,
Cleric/Summoner - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Grohk, FFXI WHM/SMN (but again, moreso NPC - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Lutete )
Bard/Bard - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (most builds), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Bard, some benefit to using https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Corsair as subjob
Bard/Tank - https://omeda.city/heroes/Narbash (tanky builds obv), Sevarog/Shinbi can, but 'passive HP healing' is a pretty big 'divider/tell' for most Bard play and the equivalent item was removed, FFXI BRD/NIN with skilz and an enemy that uses minimal AoE/doesn't resist Sleep
Bard/Fighter - see Bard/Tank above, but less Narbash, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Lillith, FFXI BRD/WAR or very rarely BRD/DRK
Bard/Ranger - The more common 'Harp-Bow' characters from MMOs now, TL Longbow/Wand (with the longbow focused)
Bard/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/Gadget (if played as support), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Pip (when you're really creative with positioning), https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Corsair (various ways)
Bard/Rogue - https://omeda.city/heroes/Phase (aura builds), https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Moji, FFXI BRD/DNC (possible to BRD/THF but I doubt anyone would)
Bard/Cleric - Nearly everything in the 'support' role boils down to this if it has buffs, https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Corvus (certain builds), certain Muriel builds, BRD/WHM, etc
Bard/Summoner - https://omeda.city/heroes/LtBelica (specific support builds, highly debatable)
Summoner/Summoner - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Summoner
Summoner/Tank - FFXI Summoner with appropriate summon active (often Titan, sometimes Garuda), tends to focus on improving 'speed' of being able to use summon abilities, and lowering costs, synergizes well with the effect a specific staff in the old days (Terra Staff, PDT up, cost of Titan being summoned reduced)
Summoner/Fighter - See above, but more likely to have summoned Ifrit and focused on 'Avatar Favor' effect to give party Double Attack trait. Depending on the moonphase, might also summon Fenrir.
Summoner/Ranger - https://omeda.city/heroes/Dekker (rare, usually only seen by experts messing around in Offlane), FFXI SMN but most likely to have summoned Shiva, kiting and back to 'lowered costs and more frequent abilities', sometimes FFXI BST but too long to explain the specifics of that
Summoner/Mage - https://omeda.city/heroes/IggyScorch (being generous here), FFXI Summoner with good mastery of Elemental Spirits, and the NPC - https://ffxiclopedia.fandom.com/wiki/Gariri (who doesn't actually use elemental spirits)
Summoner/Rogue - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Saati with very specific focuses in play and build, FFXI Summoner normally doesn't do this, more likely to summon Garuda, or Ramuh (and if Ramuh, Avatar favor effect for Crit)
Summoner/Cleric - https://paladins.fandom.com/wiki/Ying, FFXI standard SMN/WHM, will usually have Leviathan summoned if they really need even more healing.
Summoner/Bard - Other Ying builds, specific Belica builds, FFXI SMN with Fenrir, though their performance is moonphase dependent. Also, those who specialize in rapidly switching summon in a rhythm to use each effect as appropriate buff in turn.
I certainly do not ascribe to such dismissive attitudes, thouse game types offer very condensed little packages of class fantasy and would be a gold mine for concepts at the broad level that were working with here. I will start going through these but it will obviously take a while, thx for this.
Ranger/Bard Bowsinger
Ovwerwhelmed by the joy of the shared hunt the Bowsinger is no lone wolf, they provide the benifits of their Hunts to nearby allies and when their Mark is downed the whole party exults in restorative and invigorating triumph. Bowsingers make ideal shot callers as they rally a whole team to focus on priority targets.
This is a simple modification, just making the Ranger self buffs into ally buffing in a Bard like fashion. Likewise the Mark system is also turned into a group sustain, likely some HP and Mana, probably varying based on the Mark type, incorporate the Bards sustaining effects in a way that fits a hunting theme. This would be an example of a very simple mechanical changes making a big difference in play.
Ranger/Fighter Strider
While most rangers try to maintain distance to stay exclusivly in ranged combat the Strider has no fear of melee engagement and weaves effortless between the two. Their ranged attacks gain bonus damage and crit chance at short range while their melee attacks likewise benifit when delivered to oponents recently struck by ranged attacks.
This is basically Legolas from the movies, firing at very short range and then going into melee and back again. While any basic ranger could do that the Strider's bonuses make this playstyle the optimum way to play this class and for players who like that mixed melee/range playstyle this is the kind of Ranger to be. I think it would also broadly fit the expectations of players as to what a Ranger/Fighter would be.
Ranger/Rogue Scout
Swifter then the wind the Scout outpaces all others. Their Hunts and abilities focused on speed, maintaing their own stealth and detection of Stealthed oponents making them the ideal information gatherers. While they have lighter damage output then other rangers they maintain good burst damage for hit and run attacks and they coat their arrows with deadly poisons which can paralize and finish off oponents who have been left far behind.
My main inspiration here is the TF2 Scout, admitedly just because it has the name scout so I evokes the idea of using alternating burst of speed, stealth and detection to get in get intel but not nessarily get kills. The idea is that when they do engage in combat it's take out sentries or escape (like some kind of online MetalGear Solid) and thus the emphasis on burst damage and poison from the Rogue comes through to give quick kills or escapes but not a lot of sustained fighting power. Some might think that Ranger/Rogue should be a sniper but I put that gameplay under Rogue/Ranger under the logic that sniping is fundamentally a burst attack from stealth which is core Rogue gameplay, and that if Sniping were the gameplay here then their would be no sufficiently unique gameplay for Rogue/Ranger to differentiate it.
Ranger/Ranger Hawkeye
Perfecting their archery skills to the Hawkeye reaches levels never before dreamed of. Their accuracy, critical hit rate and raw range allow them to win any ranged duel and dispatch melee oponents long before they have a chance to lay a hand on them.
Hawkeye is generally used to denote good eyesight and accurate fire so running with that this is basically the superhuman accuracy fantasy of a Robin Hood or generic elf applied to Ranger to ramp them up to be even more Rangery. As a doubledown class they don't really need new mechanics, but it's important in my opinion for their power ramp to feel differnt from just leveling up, so it's narrower then just doing everything better, they are specifically given a longer range of attack to set them apart from all other Rangers, though this might present balancing issues if the default range is already as high as can be accomadated. Still I think this class might need more.
A holy martyr willing and able to bear any suffering for the sake of their flock the Apostles ability to heal themself is incredible. They generate extra Divine Power from damage taken and recive bonus HoT and tempoary max hp as well as consuming less mana when self healing. In addition their healing of others establishes a lifelink causing the next hit they take to fall upon the Apostle instead.
Idea here is to be a 'Regen Tank', and out regen the damage rather then mitigate it. That requires first and formost a high HP pool to be able to not be killed in a burst as well as high self healing efficiency, both are rolled into existing healing skills so the Apostle is intended to 'inflate' in battle to a huge hp pool, maybe the highest of any class. I didn't think this class would need much of the traditional tank mechanisms to encourage folks to attack you because in PvP you always go for the healer anyways so a healer who is tanking dosn't need threat/hate mechanics. But it probably dose need SOME ability to protect others if the enemy decides to focus them, thus the heals on others causing damage redirection to you, thus putting your enormouse hp pool between the enemy and your team mates to a degree. Generating divide power on damage taken is a nod to Tanks courage mechainic and makes their self heal potential ramp up when under heavier assault.
As for playstyle it would be be similar to traditional healers in that your spamming thouse heals constantly but more often then normal on yourself, but different in that your not gonna be in the back but now potentially upfront T-posing like a Brazilian statue of Jesus and inviting as much attack as possible, so your gonna be getting some of that Tank gameplay feel. The main difficulty will be mana managment because you don't mitigate incoming damage your group is gonna take more damage and need more healing then with traditional tanks, so that puts a tax on your mana, even with the redused mana cost on selfheals your likely gonna need mana regen support.
I'd have PM'ed you directly but I feel you'd probably just want it here anyway. When you have some time, I still have a reason to want to know if you consider any of these Augments to be at least 'Drastic'. I think the skills are explained sufficiently enough that you probably don't need to look them up.
I ask because it's harder to 'discuss' Cleric class fantasy, for me, without reference to some of these (or FFXI stuff, which is much harder to give a good reference for).
Indeed their is enough info to interpret, I would say that that all left be with one work "Perks", the changes are both all buffs and 'Flavor' changes (superfical differences which don't change playstyle). It looks they they are designed to be superficially complex and customizable while actually avoiding altering the underlying gameplay style of the skills but instead to give the player the lttle dopamine hits of "their is my extra proc", "their is my extra damage" etc. It reminded of the Perks in DeepRockGalactic and the clean weapon overclocks. It a lot of design work to make a lot of crunch (and perhapse very fun to optimize) choices which don't run the risk of upsetting any balance or shifting any meta (which can be a good thing if meta is a delicate house of cards already in a state you like).
At most I could see the potential for a more AoE focused vs single target focus play style in thouse options, which presenter even expressed as pve and pvp 'obvious' selections but their no coherent design of an alternative 'kit' from what I can see. Just the potential for players to kind of bend the kit in that direction. But I really have no faith in 'build your own kit' systems, any system capable of the flexibility to make is impossible to balance and invariably results in a meta collapse to a handfull of acceptable options. The game designer must take on the responsibility of designing the kit to be both fun and viable.
But overall I would consider augments that worked like that to be a failure, and possibly the worst kind because it would probably be the result of a long development cycle making all these crunchy changes and carefully testing to ensure they do effectivly nothing. If that level of work is gonna be put in then it really should be to try to use augments to make something that feels like a class.
I just completed a first rough outline for each Cleric derived class (by figuring out High Priest specifically, the doubledown classes are always the hardest) and how it would be unique, summed up in one line each they would be.
Cleric/Bard Scryer - efficient HoT group healer, light buffing
Cleric/Cleric High Priest - Debuff removal champ
Cleric/Fighter Templar - Radiant melee damage dealer
Cleric/Mage Oracle - Alternate effect of heals on foes for stuns and damage
Cleric/Ranger Protector - reactive rescue single target burst healer
Cleric/Rogue Shadow Disiple - Enemy debuffing and 'retribution' effects
Cleric/Summoner Shaman - Area control healing zone healer
Cleric/Tank Apostle - self heal meat piñata
Do thouse sound like a good general outline? Are they logically consistent as a fusion of the two archetypes? What healer types am I missing that should be included?
I find it fun to theorycraft these things, so here's my example:
Cleric / Bard - depending on which augment school they pick, they could focus on more AoE heals, party/raid buffs, or debuffs to enemies.
Cleric / Cleric - generally enhancing any playstyle they go for, depending on the school they pick. They could focus on more HoTs, more powerful single target heals, or debuff removal, etc.
Cleric / Fighter - melee healer, using shorter range attacks, rather than long range spells, being right in your face, in the middle of the fight, healing allies around them, more of a point blank AoE healer if you will.
Cleric / Mage - depending on the school, they could either enhance allies attacks with certain elements, generally offer utility like barrier, blink, decrease cast time, etc.
Cleric / Ranger - I honestly find it hard to come up with something here. Maybe setting up some heal traps, where allies get healed when they step over them. Something with "Hunts". Maybe imbue allies attacks, so any attacks heal them.
Cleric / Rogue - I imagine this as a stealth / combat ress guy. Maybe also visuals change for a more darker theme, rather than holy. In general focus more around shadows.
Cleric / Summoner - Summon holy spirits that heal allies, maybe even totems?? In general, depending on the school, you could either be focusing on holy stuff, with spirits, or dark/death magic, maybe some health sacrifice to heal allies, while using lifesteal to keep yourself up.
Cleric / Tank - more survivability, more defenses, barriers. This is also your frontline healer, but one that can take a punch or two. Those survivability tools are mostly limited to themselves, although they should have some enhanced barrier they can apply to allies as well.
Ashes has implied that there may be some options in the Cleric that allow them to deal damage, and I would think this has to be something outside of 'just' hitting with the weapon. They do have some, but they're all radiant at this time.
As a starter concept from the perspective of 'a Healer who only focuses on healing/damage prevention', these all match my general expectations of how most people would build them.
If you were 'working within the constraints of the few skills we currently know', then I agree with all of it, but the current understanding I have, of the options within the game, some of these would actually be overlapping quite a lot, even with relatively Drastic tier Augments, which is why the point made by others to 'focus it down', is quite valid.
The obvious problem with any game that gives a player choice in abilities, is that they must also offer a reason to not try to take everything other than 'you just can't', in my opinion. And Ashes doesn't use an 'either-or' style of balance.
tl;dr now I'm the one who thinks that these rough outlines aren't compelling enough. Not because these types of healers shouldn't/won't exist, but because 'Augments enhancing them' wouldn't be 'enough' to push them into distinction (because Augments don't cost skill points anymore).
I think if we view it from the perspective of 'if you realize you've built this type of Cleric, choose this secondary archetype/these Racial or Social Augments', is good, but I would hesitate to connect it to 'class fantasy' within the way Ashes builds it (bear in mind that I still don't care about class fantasy or the names Intrepid gives to anything).
The reason I brought the TL information is exactly the same. I know which augments (Skill Specializations) to take because I know which type of healer I am (it's based on gear and Passive skills too, which are not discussed in the video linked).
(also wow I feel like this post is a mess)
The reason to not try to take everything should be, if you take everything, you are not specializing in a certain area, meaning you are less effective overall. You are just picking bits everywhere, without any focus, meaning all the things you picked are not as effective as they could be. (This could also lead to everything being min-maxxed to death, which is also not great, depending on the implementation) - But I'm sure you know this, I just wanted to give an example.
It could be done in many ways, with skill levels (leveling up a skill multiple times to improve it), passives focusing on certain abilities or certain stats/playstyle, etc. Trees, where you only focus on a certain branch, etc.
At the same time, this could also limit you in many ways, where you just have to pick certain options, in fear of not being efficient enough, or rather it pushes you down a certain path, where you just have to take the rest of the stuff down that path, even if you don't want to.
It's a balancing act really, in many ways.
Now I'm sure this will come down the line, once they actually design skill/passive skill trees, and the augment system. I think the skill trees we have now are just a placeholder, or rather those will change many times before release.
A key part to all of this is visual changes, which will further make "subclasses" more distinct from one another. That's it's important for the augment system to provide meaningful visual changes, whether each subclass has a certain theme, or just visual changes depending on which exact augment school you use.
So a playstyle difference, where each subclass has a specific focus, and visual and (hopefully) sound changes to abilities, is really enough to make classes really feel unique and distinct from one another.
I think the arguments will play one part of that. The Bards damage shield, also skill that do things like adding a HP container incress etc. Augmented with Tank could shorten the cast time on these skills. Make them add 10% more buffing.
Couple this with Weapons and armour types. Could make a Bard that players in the thick of the frount line. Buffing to help mitigate damage of that frount line. Helping push that front line forward towards victory.
I say this because it was mentioned that the A2 players are really enjoying how weapons and armor types have added allot of depth to their classes and changing their play style. We are only starting to scratch the surface of what makes a class.
On the other hand, a group with an Enchanter who can restore mana to everyone would work really well with lots of spellcasters. In this case, a Spellshield could be a good choice for a tank to pair with the Enchanter.
Ashes makes me able to do all these things in my favorite class, the Bard.
My hopes are this: will post my second build I want later.
First, Bard/Bard. For grouping and raiding. Backline Brad focused or lowering cast time, mana regen, CC package roots, snares and sleeps to keep forces off the casters. Also boosting the Bards run buffs to also help with mobility. This Bard would take a hit in not healing healing would take a slight hit, trading sme of the HP regen to add a split on that song 1/2 to healing and 1/2 for mana regen that stacks with the mana regen song.
I would build this with light armour for the augments for speed. And a ranged wand, book for keeping up with DPE that the Casters and Rangers all at max distance that I am supporting.
Mage and fighter or tank hybrid - along the lines of Unchained Sienna from Vermintide 2 game. A fire mage which walks a thin line between staying in control and getting consumed by the fire magic. A capable melee fighter, who's melee power is augmented when they use their magic first.
Cleric and fighter or tank hybrid - a capable melee fighter able to feed its healing and other support abilities by staying on the frontline, dishing out melee damage and supporting its allies.
Inquisitor class similar to Pathfinder inq, a witch hunter archetype.
Zealot class - basically a religious fanatic. Something between a berserker and a firebrand not particularly tolerant cleric.
So yes, I bounce between heretical magic users who can barely control their power, and religious dogmatic zealots quite a bit
Quite a lot of overlap with my own thoughts so I'll focus on where I see differences and oportunities I missed. Note that I am assuming the dropping of '4 augment' options because I do not belive it is remotely possible to create 32 meaningful variations no matter how hard one tries, I'm aiming for a singular playstyle concept though this may consist of a kit with more then one capability in it.
Cleric/Bard and Cleric/Fighter look like a match with my thoughts with the exception of a debuffing option on Cleric/Bard. I wound't say that they should lack debuffs but that seems unlikely to be any more heavily emphasized then it is with the Bard and most of it's debuffs are more soft mezmerize, sleeps etc.
Cleric/Cleric generally lacks focus, the curse of the doubledown class. I focused on debuff removal more because it was the only thing left after thinking about all other varients and it felt like a thematic fit for something called a 'High Priest'. I admit to being influenced by Aqua from Konosuba.
The Cleric/Mage as a buffer of allies with elements seems a bit of a stretch to me. Mages do not currently have a lot of buffing play (though their is a good argument that they should) so this feels inconsistent with the secondary archetype. Also barrier is a Tank feature. The Cast time improvements sound promissing though but not sure if that should be for themselves or a buff they give, also is it not redundant with divine power mechanic?
Cleric/Ranger a 'Heal trap' is an interesting idea, I presume it's functionally like thouse Diablo heal globs you can walk over. Throwing these down would allow your party members to kind of manage their own healing by moving and the Cleric can essentially 'bank' some healing before it's actually needed. Not sure if Cleric/Ranger is the ideal place to put such an ability though. My own thoughts were initially Ana from overwatch 'heal sniping' and that evolved to just a classic single target rapid healer who can do the 'rescue' heal job.
Cleric/Rogue I had genuinely not considered the possibility of 'sneaking' healing, it seems limited to me because unless your in full stealth the whole time what's the benift? Your not jumping out from stealth and downing an enemy in a burst of damage and then escaping. A healer needs to stay with their team. This is why I leaned towards debuffing as a broad concept over focusing on rogue like stealth mechanics. Admittedly Rogue is not primarily a debuffer but they do often have poison and DoT's so it's not completly incongrous.
Cleric/Summoner I had not considered mobile healing entities, having singled in on totemic systems because of the name Shaman, but this might be a valid option with a Shaman healing system, call them 'ancestral spirits' or something.
Cleric/Tank I kinda wanted to make sure this did not stray too close to Paladin aka Tank/Cleric. So I denied it any damage mitigation which a Paladin would have a lot of and set up the 'tank with health regen' concept.
To be fair, we can design several examples that would work, and we might get nothing close to that in the actual game.
That's why I can't actually wait to see some examples or some more information, because I'm going to go crazy with theorycrafting multiple classes/specs, because I can base it off of something, rather than nothing, like I'm doing now.
Well for our theory crafting to be usefull to Intrepid, should they be reading the thread, I think the goal is to the best of our abilities lay out of a portfolio of playstyle variation which fully cover player expectations. Intrepid will not want to be designing in a vacum of only their own fantasies, nor do they need to be spoonfed all the specifics of implementation which is why I don't feel we need to go deeper then descriptive blurbs.
With these healing concepts are we covering all the healer styles and fantasies? Would their be players who look at this set and say "My kind of healer fantasy got neglected". I don't primarily play healers (and even if I did I would probably have a specific narrow preference on how) so I'm trying to be cognazant of my blind spots, what I can do is look at common variations that already exist in game and try to boil them down to a representative set which gives maximum coverage because it's unlikely that anyone has a healer fantasy which is not already implemented in an existing game.
Given that armore/weapon flexibility is universal, and should stay that way for all classes. I don't generally feel the need to address it in a class fantasy unless their is a specific interaction. For example Paladins getting a bonus to shield blocking as a class feature. I want to keep even thouse to a minimum so as not to create a defacto 'mandatory' equipment pattern, in the case of Paladins their shielding is so Iconic that it's ok, the same way Rangers kinda are mandated to use bows.
With regard to the Bard/Tank I wanted to focus on the concept of a 'Mezmerizer Tank', aka one which achives the goal of Tanking by stopping attacks from being made rather then taking the attacks. Such a class COULD be built with heavier armor but they dont need to be.
I like the idea of Bard/Bard being able to reduce friendly skill cooldowns, it is a universally useful benifit and the kind of thing that can make a doubledown class feel unique from the base archetype, a 'capstone' kind of ability which don'st just feel like being a few levels higher.
Another thing, remember how everyone kept saying that playing 2 melodies at a time ok but 3 would be REALLY cool. I guarantee you that's gonna be an augment and Bard/Bard is the logical class to get it. So you can probably run movement speed, healing and mana regen all at the same time.
Thinking about Weapon Master or Highsword at the moment, if its meaningful with twohanded weapon, mainly sword, but I guess so.
Paladin or Knight, so main class Tank, perhaps is an alternative option, but DPS wise I expect that Fighter is (should be) ahead.
That‘s why Highsword currently is raising my attention, hoping to get a Fighter with some little self heal abilities or some that heal others around / surrounding during melee combat. We will see.
He will look like my avatar than, roleplay wise ;-)
But I’m also waiting for rogue gameplay later on, as Warrior/Fighter and Rogue/Assassin always were my favorite classes in all MMOs I‘ve played.
If your talking Mez tanking, what will that do to diminishing returns? You can't mez a target a 3rd time with the same skill. Also Steven has mentioned locking people down for a long time is not fun game play. What's your thoughts?
Simple, the class is weak in larger scale sustained pvp. If your group can't win in the opening mez period your Siren opens up then you blew your chance. Mez tanking is likely to be most effective in small and medium sized groups such as a 4v4 where you can lockdown 2 of them and then you Bard buffed companions can takeout the enemy 3 v 2 and then repeat. In PvE the Mez tank should be fun and distinct play style.
I'm generally less concerned with how every class plays in pvp because, 1) Were told that you can change your secondary so this should allow people to switch into what ever the pvp meta is before any big battle and 2) Your still able to perform your core role in pvp such as the Siren doing party buffing so the class should retain most of it's effectivenss even if the secondary archetype splash is hit or miss.
Fighter/Cleric Highsword
Master of endurance and sustained fighting the Highswords augments skilled melee fighting techniques with ample ability to clense away negative damage inducing status effects and debuffs from themselves. Their combat stances allow for limited self healing options and by expending combat Momentum they can deal Radiant damage. The Highsword is notably a loner in battle, neither giving nor depending on allied aid, thus allowing them to be positive contribution to even hastily created parties with no time to develop strong teamwork.
I think most classes with Cleric secondary should have some 'off-cleric' ability to heal others but felt that this was a place where self-healing only was mandated to prevent his class from mass synergizing with itself and snowballing. Also helps make it very distinct from Paladins and Templar which DO do a lot of allied healing. Likewise the self debuff clensing was emphasized over the self healing aspect, which is preventing damage before it happens (damage inducing would mean any status effect that could directly casue damage or incresse the amount taken from a source), the use of Stances for healing is ment to take away some of their damage output and CC reduction. Vulnorability to CC is their main weakness as their debuff clense dosn't work on it, but they can regen and minimize damage effects while CCed so they likely come out of the CC with health comperable to other classes which just break CC faster. I get a haught 'Jerk Nobleman' kind of vibe from these guys and the name 'high sword' and the highly self-reliant nature fits that and I think will fit what most Melee DPS players want from Cleric secondary, which is to obsolete their support needs rather then to actually do any support play.
Fighter/Fighter Weapon Master
None can match the Weapon Master in the art of perrying, they gain shield like blocking from properly timed weapon attacks allowing them to weild two handed weapons at reduced risk. In addition their stances can provide greater weapon reach and movement speed allowing them to srike first in most situations. When facing only melee oponents their skills are such that they can emerge completly unscathed if timing and luck are on their side.
This concept is a bit more speculative on action combat mechancis, specifically the addition of perry mechanics and modifying weapon reach properties. If that's something Intrepid can and would do then this class represents a leaning in on Action combat mechanics, providing a modest edge in movement and reach which a skilled player would treat like a game of Street Fighter to do disproportionate damage in melee. This is intended to be a high skill floor high skill cap class and is going to be tricky to balance. I get a Wuxia martial arts master vibe from these guys and I think that fufills the promise of 'weapon master' quite well in that they are really focused around just delivering constant basic attacks, their active skills might hardly get any changes from the base archetype. Being pincussioned with ranged attacks or magic are their main weaknesses which should hopefully take down even the most skilled eventually.
Fighter/Bard Bladedancer - high mobility, evasive, target swapping Fighter
Fighter/Cleric Highsword - self healing, self debuff cleansing Fighter
Fighter/Fighter Weapon Master - action combat oriented Fighter
Fighter/Mage Spellsword - elemental damage infused weapon damage Fighter
Fighter/Ranger Hunter - single target takedown focused Fighter
Fighter/Rogue Shadowblade - burst damage and DoT applying Fighter
Fighter/Summoner Bladecaller - bonus companion minion aided Fighter
Fighter/Tank Dreadnought - heavy CC Fighter
I invite those intrerested in your future AoC characters, which is obvious since you started your own threads on a topic that for years didnt get a serious attention from the community, to join this proposal.
Archwizard sounds soooooo cringy.
My view is that your main class should shape your archetype more than anything.
Mage/Fighter Basically still a ranged class that uses melee for finishers or maybe jump in and out combat.
Fighter/Mage -More agile warrior that enhances his melee attacks with magic
Rogue/Cleric Agile rogue that does burst of blinding holy magic. Flashes of light and all that jazz for Daze, Blind effects... or if you build it in some sort of shadow leaning cleric the opposite. Maybe it casts something like Darkness to blind opponents.
Cleric/Rogue Cleric that can briefly slip and and out of stealth to prevent damage. Maybe even making players have this shadow form where they take less damage or make them invisible for short time.
Summoner/Mage - My thoughts exactly. Summoner that uses different elementals for different occassions.
Mage/Summoner - (Warlock) Summoner of demons that briefly stay on Vera's plain. Maybe some form of chaos damage is in order, because all the lifesteal related spells for pure caster should be reserved for Necromancer
For example is the role of a Mage to be a long distance burst attacker, or to be a magic damage attacker, or to be a long range magic damage attacker, or to be a long ranged AoE magical damage attacker. I choose to interpret a secondary archetype as being able to change one major element of the formla at a time. If every element had to be present at all times then no meaningful variation can exist. Still some parts are sacrosanct, for a Mage its magic. For a fighter its 'hit it with my sword'.
In the case of Mage/Fighter it's to replace 'long range' with 'short range', other combos like Mage/Ranger take away AoE and become single target oriented while retaining long range. Most elements remains the same but change needs to be relevent not tacked on. A Mage/Fighter who is just a base Mage + can now melee is pointless because you just stay in the back row firing at long range that has wasted melee potential. It's like putting a bayonet on an artilery piece, vs making the mage a flamethrower. If thats not your cup of tea then go Wizard (I agree they should drop Arch) and be a tactical nuke launcher.
As for Rogue/Cleric pairings. I see the essence of Rogue to be surprise attacking generally with a lot of preperation before hand in stealth, positioning buffing etc to allow a rapid win once fighting commences. Guided by the name lead to the idea of casting before fighting and Cleric magic be incorporated in that was HP inflation before battle before you jump out and do a fairly standard Rogue stab-fest but with this pre-healing done to yourself and party to make you win that brief fight, but no sustained healing so if the surprise dosn't work your SOL.
Cleric/Rogue I see as more the class to be spamming out the debuffs, remember the class has to work by modification of Cleric skills so giving them alternative effects when cast on foes lets them both heal and debuff as needed. Escape by stealth is less important as I don't feel all Rogue secondary classes need to be stealth oriented, I understand how support players wish for a 'I don't die' button, but it's ultimatly not enough to distinquish a class and I feel it is too passive and denies counterplay to the oposing team. So I focus more on debuffing for Cleric/Rogue and Bard/Rogue.
Summoner/Mage Note that 'different summons for different occasions' is something I think will be universal to all Summoners. All would have a skill for 'Melee DPS summon', 'ranged attacker summon', 'Tanky summon'. These basic catagories are just thematically turned into elementals that deal elemental damage and the twist is that they explode too.
Mage/Summoner this one is tricky, I don't really like demon summons as I think Summoner secondary should only get a single 'pet' at most and a demon sounds too strong, though I can see how it fits the name warlock. I'd be more inclined to have them create more semi-permanant battlefield effects like Wall-of-Fire and the like or to get fireballs that have homing abilities.
Fighter focuses on moving around the battlefield dealing Physical Damage and Wounds, applying Riled and Shaken and proccing Damage Mitigation.
Mage/Fighter will likely have Augments that are weaker versions of:
Whirlwind - which would likely add Physical Damage when applied to Ball Lightning or . It would likely add some Damage Mitigation when applied to Arcane Circle or Blink
Battle Cry/Cataclysm - which will apply Riled/Shaken
Brutality - there may be Augments which inflict Wounds
Some Fighter Augments could change some Mage Active Skills from Ranged to Melee, yes.
I don't know what you mean by "changing one major element at a time".
Secondary Archetype provides Augments that can be applied to Active Skills - allowing the player to do some stuff the Secondary Archetype can do while they are using their Primary Archetype Active Skills.
In Ashes, any Class can use any weapon. Fighter is more about dealing Physical Damage than it is about wielding a Sword, but sure... A Battle Mage could wield a Sword. Battle Mage will still primarily be a Mage who can also do some Fighter stuff on top of the Mage Active Skills.
In Ashes, primary role is defined by the Primary Archetype Active Skills.