Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in AoC with Diverse Energy Mechanics

Rethinking Resource Systems: Enhancing Class Identity in Ashes of Creation with Diverse Energy Mechanics

1. Addressing Claims of Bias and Unnecessary Comparison
It's important to recognize that the suggestion to implement resources like Rage or Energy for certain classes in Ashes of Creation isn't merely about replicating the success of systems found in other MMOs. Rather, it's about identifying what those mechanics can bring to class identity and player engagement, drawing on successful precedents to inspire, not copy. The goal is not to turn Ashes into another version of existing games but to explore how different resource systems can enhance the distinct feel and gameplay of each class.

2. Responding to Concerns About Homogenization and Tradition
While it's true that many successful MMOs have utilized Mana for a range of classes, including melee and tank roles, this does not necessarily mean it is the only or the best approach for every game. Each MMO creates its own universe with unique lore and gameplay mechanics that might benefit from different approaches. The presence of Mana as a universal resource in these games is often a design choice that aligns with their specific magical universes. Ashes of Creation offers a new canvas, and it might be beneficial to explore how varying energy systems can diversify gameplay, making each class's approach to combat feel unique and fresh.

3. Promoting Gameplay Diversity and Strategic Depth
Adopting different resource systems could lead to a richer gameplay experience by diversifying the strategies and skills required for each class. This isn't just about making Ashes different for the sake of difference but about enhancing the tactical depth and player involvement in each role:

Resource Dynamics: Classes that operate on Rage or Energy could encourage more active and reactive gameplay, which might appeal to players who enjoy a more visceral and immediate combat experience, as opposed to the strategic reserve and deployment of Mana-based abilities.
Class-Specific Challenges: Unique resources introduce specific challenges and learning curves that can help define the mastery of a class. For instance, managing Rage in the heat of battle requires a different skill set and strategic thinking than conserving and deploying Mana, potentially leading to a more engaging experience for players who prefer a hands-on combat style.

4. Roleplaying and Class Identity
As someone who has enjoyed playing melee classes in various MMORPGs for over two decades, one of the most compelling aspects of these roles is the ability to embody a character who is distinctly non-magical. The idea of playing a class that either dislikes or does not understand Mana adds a layer of depth to roleplaying that resonates with players like myself. It reinforces the identity of the class not just in combat but in the broader narrative and interaction within the game world. Integrating alternative resources like Rage or Energy can emphasize this non-magical, gritty aspect of these characters, making the roleplaying experience more authentic and immersive.

5. Humble Acknowledgment of Diverse Preferences
It's essential to recognize that these suggestions stem from a desire to see Ashes of Creation flourish as a multifaceted game that caters to a wide range of player experiences and preferences. The proposal to differentiate class resources is based on observations and preferences within the gaming community, and while they draw on examples from other successful games, they are tailored to what might benefit the unique world and lore of Ashes.

In conclusion, while some might see the suggestion to move away from a universal Mana system as biased or unnecessary, it is offered in the spirit of enhancing the individuality and depth of each class. By exploring alternative resources, Ashes of Creation has the potential to offer a varied and rich combat experience that allows each player to find a class that resonates with their personal playstyle and contributes to a vibrant, dynamic game world.

That concludes my Ted Talk. Thank you.

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Comments

Lodrig

I'm generally possitivly disposed to class (well actually base Archeytype) unique resources. So far we have Momentum (basically renamed Rage) and Courage for the Warrior and Tank respectivly and they look well integrated into their kits.

I would not say that I percive any need to do away with Mana usage in all archetypes other then Mage. But I DO percive a need for a class resource for the yet to be revealed Summoner and I'd like to describe why.

This Summoner resurce would be called 'Control' or 'Command' or 'Willpower' something to that effect, it acts to cap the number of summons that the Summoner can have active at any one time. Thus it will start full (presumably 100) and be depleted with each summon and restored upon the summons death or dismisal. Generally it is desirable that a Summoner be able to maintain their summons 'up' with ease because unlike classes which deal damage with Mana or other resources and can breifly disengage, drink potions, use resets etc and return to combat at full effectiness, a summoner who has lost all their summons and needs to resummon them can get stuck in a loop of having the summons killed as fast as they are made and thus they can't rebound to their proper effectivness. This is countered by making summoning itself relativly fast but capped so the summoners army is more consistent in power. Also summoning cooldown can ramp up the more summons (and thus less Control) the summoner has thus giving a faster rebound at low counts while still giving oponents a meaningful chance to keep summon counts from maxing out by killing them faster then the slowed cooldown.

If multiple kinds of summonables are available they would have unique control costs, a cheap one might be 12 and a costly one 30. Summoners skill tree could lower costs of specific summon types to be able to have more of them, or raise the summons strength, or both depending on where you put the points. And a Summoner could choose what type of summons to actually bring to battle, maybe summoning all the same type in one situation and all of another type in another situation or switching them mid battle rather then in system which just cap each type individually and thus always result in a mixed composition which can't adapt on the fly.

In addition to summoning costing Control a Summoner can issue orders which likewise cost control to maintain while active. Orders are location or character target specific simple AI controls like "Defend this area", "Attack that guy", "Defend Me", probably only 1 of each order can be active at a time. All summons obey the nearest order unless their type is specifically ignores it such as an attack summon which will not obey defence orders or visa versa. An order might also potentially buff the summon obeying it (thus a limit of one such buff at a time) in a relevent way, such as an attack speed buff when obeying an attack order, such buffs would probably be optional skills in the tree and would raise the Control cost of the order an appropriate amount. Lasty Orders which are too far away from the summoner (generally the distance of their summon leash) are immedialy dispeled, and any order can be manual dispelled early via the UI, orders markers on the map or on characters are visible only to the summoner so that enemies are not unduely warned, they have to actually watch the summons and see what they are doing.

Orders exist to give the summoner something tactically meaningful to do in combat if they are that 'commanding from the rear' kind of player but come at the cost of having a slight reduction in number of summons active due to the control cost, which should be balanced by the greater efficiency that a good player should be able to squeeze out with orders. Orders are fully optional to use and a summoner can just summon and let the default AI do everything like Diablo 2 Necromancer had to do, this is likely to be the option prefered for Summoners who join in and fight on the frontlines and thus don't feel they have the attention to spare directing their summons, though even they might want that "Defend Me" order.

Because orders work independently of the number of summons a Summoner can independently decide to have many weak summons or fewer stronger ones AND if they want to give orders or not.

Kilion

Before I dive into this I have two questions that for some reason did not really come up:

1) Are you aware of the lore based explanation that lies beneath the all-mana resource system?

2) In regards to the Fighter class - are you aware that there is an individual resource for them in planning called "Momentum" just like Tanks have a unique "Courage" (thanks for the correction @Lodrig ) resource?

Arya_Yeshe

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Glandallin

Kilion wrote: »

Before I dive into this I have two questions that for some reason did not really come up:

1) Are you aware of the lore based explanation that lies beneath the all-mana resource system?

2) In regards to the Fighter class - are you aware that there is an individual resource for them in planning called "Momentum" just like Tanks have a unique "Grit" resource?

Good points!

1) Regarding the lore-based explanation for using Mana universally—I get that there might be a thematic or narrative reason behind it. However, my thought is whether the lore could evolve or expand to incorporate different resource systems that might fit the class identities even better. Lore is crucial, but it's also often flexible enough to adapt for improved gameplay dynamics. Steven has also stated that not *all* being in Verra have the same ability to tap into "essence".

2) About the Fighter's "Momentum" and the Tank's "Courage"— Yes, however my main point, though, is about the primary resource. Even with unique sub-resources like Momentum and Courage, the use of Mana as the main resource still feels a bit generic across such varied classes. Perhaps these unique resources could become the main ones? It might enrich the gameplay experience, making each class's resource management more unique and engaging, rather than just a secondary layer to Mana.

I'm all for integrating lore and unique mechanics smoothly. If we can have classes that feel distinctly different not just in abilities but also in how they manage and utilize their resources, that could really set Ashes apart in the crowded MMO space.

What do you think? Could there be room to tweak the lore and resource systems to make them even more class-specific?

Glandallin

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Thank you for your contribution

Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.

It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!

If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!

Lodrig

Kilion wrote: »

Tanks have a unique "Grit" resource?

Tank resource is 'Corage', a skill called Grit can consume the Courage for a defense buff. Please use the correct terminology cause your now getting other people to repeat your mistake.

Kilion

Greatwarlord wrote: »

1) Regarding the lore-based explanation for using Mana universally—I get that there might be a thematic or narrative reason behind it. However, my thought is whether the lore could evolve or expand to incorporate different resource systems that might fit the class identities even better. Lore is crucial, but it's also often flexible enough to adapt for improved gameplay dynamics. Steven has also stated that not *all* being in Verra have the same ability to tap into "essence".

One of the great differentiators between mortal divine races and the gods is that aspect of mortality. And one of the ways that the divine races were created in order to interact with the Essence was through the use of a mortal coil; and that mortal coil was malleable. Your soul was malleable. It could change to adopt a greater connection with the Essence around one particular school of magic perhaps, or one type of magic that you might use Essence for. And the more you experienced that, the more adept you became with utilizing that magic. And that's because your coil would start to mold itself to best facilitate that flow of essence: whatever school of magic you were manipulating with it.[14] – Steven Sharif

In terms that I could understand this translates to:
There is a cosmic power called Essence. Mortals have souls. In the sould there is a "processing plant" (the mortal coil) for Essence that, fueled by mana, creates magic. The magic that comes out of processing plant is determined by a deep dedication to master something. For example a mage had a lifetime of preparation to form their soul to be able to turn Essence into domination of Fire, Ice, Lightining and the Void. The are performing what many will think of as magic in the classical sense. However, a Tank conjuring up a cone behind which his allies are protected from harm is by "logical, real world standards" just as much magic - and in the world of Ashes of Creation it is indeed that: Magic. Just not elemental magic, but protective magic.

So by the time you finished your character creation and click on play from a story perspective, your character has spent a few decades devoting themselves to that one particular kind of magic that you select via choice of your first Archetype, which is also why you won't be able to fundamentally move away from that even after choosing a different secondary Archetype. Us levelling up in that line of thinking means that the connection to our Archetypes magic grows strong, resulting in new skills.

And you gotta admit, the mortal coil explanation is better than how rage or combopoints alone could lead a normal mortal to perform superhuman feats. Furthermore it has been teased that this lore element will come up in the story of Ashes of Creation.

So in total it means - to fit that primary resource change in the way that souls and the mortal coil work in Ashes' lore would have to be changed fundamentally, which is unlikely since Steven told us that he doesn't want to change the fundamental priciples of game mechanics or the lore. And as a story writer myself I definitely understand that.

As to the last point that "not all beings in Verra have the same ability to tap into the Essence.": Yes, those are most of the NPCs. Their soul did not connect to any type of miracle level of magic to the point that they got to have an Archetype.

Greatwarlord wrote: »

2) About the Fighter's "Momentum" and the Tank's "Grit"— Yes, however my main point, though, is about the primary resource. Even with unique sub-resources like Momentum and Grit, the use of Mana as the main resource still feels a bit generic across such varied classes. Perhaps these unique resources could become the main ones? It might enrich the gameplay experience, making each class's resource management more unique and engaging, rather than just a secondary layer to Mana.

I'm all for integrating lore and unique mechanics smoothly. If we can have classes that feel distinctly different not just in abilities but also in how they manage and utilize their resources, that could really set Ashes apart in the crowded MMO space.

Like mentioned before this would require Steven to accept fundamental changes to a world building element that he had laid out long before this became the part of the plot for a video game, this dates back to TTRPG times when Verra was a Pathfinder campaign.

I think people could equally argue that having the same main resources like fighters and rogues in every other game is generic. "Oh another Fighter building up a 0 to 100 Rage bar", "Hey there is the Rogue again, stacking combo points whatever that is". I'm not sure how many MMORPGs these days have a mana-only resource system, so I can't deny or confirm that such a change would actually set Ashes more apart from other games.

Greatwarlord wrote: »

What do you think? Could there be room to tweak the lore and resource systems to make them even more class-specific?

With the things I have pointed to above: Do you still think this is something that could easily been done at this point, given how much class and story development has already been done? Or that it is worthwhile?

Dygz

Let's test the current design first.

Glandallin

Kilion wrote: »

Greatwarlord wrote: »

1) Regarding the lore-based explanation for using Mana universally—I get that there might be a thematic or narrative reason behind it. However, my thought is whether the lore could evolve or expand to incorporate different resource systems that might fit the class identities even better. Lore is crucial, but it's also often flexible enough to adapt for improved gameplay dynamics. Steven has also stated that not *all* being in Verra have the same ability to tap into "essence".

One of the great differentiators between mortal divine races and the gods is that aspect of mortality. And one of the ways that the divine races were created in order to interact with the Essence was through the use of a mortal coil; and that mortal coil was malleable. Your soul was malleable. It could change to adopt a greater connection with the Essence around one particular school of magic perhaps, or one type of magic that you might use Essence for. And the more you experienced that, the more adept you became with utilizing that magic. And that's because your coil would start to mold itself to best facilitate that flow of essence: whatever school of magic you were manipulating with it.[14] – Steven Sharif

In terms that I could understand this translates to:
There is a cosmic power called Essence. Mortals have souls. In the sould there is a "processing plant" (the mortal coil) for Essence that, fueled by mana, creates magic. The magic that comes out of processing plant is determined by a deep dedication to master something. For example a mage had a lifetime of preparation to form their soul to be able to turn Essence into domination of Fire, Ice, Lightining and the Void. The are performing what many will think of as magic in the classical sense. However, a Tank conjuring up a cone behind which his allies are protected from harm is by "logical, real world standards" just as much magic - and in the world of Ashes of Creation it is indeed that: Magic. Just not elemental magic, but protective magic.

So by the time you finished your character creation and click on play from a story perspective, your character has spent a few decades devoting themselves to that one particular kind of magic that you select via choice of your first Archetype, which is also why you won't be able to fundamentally move away from that even after choosing a different secondary Archetype. Us levelling up in that line of thinking means that the connection to our Archetypes magic grows strong, resulting in new skills.

And you gotta admit, the mortal coil explanation is better than how rage or combopoints alone could lead a normal mortal to perform superhuman feats. Furthermore it has been teased that this lore element will come up in the story of Ashes of Creation.

So in total it means - to fit that primary resource change in the way that souls and the mortal coil work in Ashes' lore would have to be changed fundamentally, which is unlikely since Steven told us that he doesn't want to change the fundamental priciples of game mechanics or the lore. And as a story writer myself I definitely understand that.

As to the last point that "not all beings in Verra have the same ability to tap into the Essence.": Yes, those are most of the NPCs. Their soul did not connect to any type of miracle level of magic to the point that they got to have an Archetype.

Greatwarlord wrote: »

2) About the Fighter's "Momentum" and the Tank's "Grit"— Yes, however my main point, though, is about the primary resource. Even with unique sub-resources like Momentum and Grit, the use of Mana as the main resource still feels a bit generic across such varied classes. Perhaps these unique resources could become the main ones? It might enrich the gameplay experience, making each class's resource management more unique and engaging, rather than just a secondary layer to Mana.

I'm all for integrating lore and unique mechanics smoothly. If we can have classes that feel distinctly different not just in abilities but also in how they manage and utilize their resources, that could really set Ashes apart in the crowded MMO space.

Like mentioned before this would require Steven to accept fundamental changes to a world building element that he had laid out long before this became the part of the plot for a video game, this dates back to TTRPG times when Verra was a Pathfinder campaign.

I think people could equally argue that having the same main resources like fighters and rogues in every other game is generic. "Oh another Fighter building up a 0 to 100 Rage bar", "Hey there is the Rogue again, stacking combo points whatever that is". I'm not sure how many MMORPGs these days have a mana-only resource system, so I can't deny or confirm that such a change would actually set Ashes more apart from other games.

Greatwarlord wrote: »

What do you think? Could there be room to tweak the lore and resource systems to make them even more class-specific?

With the things I have pointed to above: Do you still think this is something that could easily been done at this point, given how much class and story development has already been done? Or that it is worthwhile?

You've really delved deep into the lore—much deeper than I have obviously!

Regarding the mortal coil and its connection to Essence—your explanation does make the universal use of Mana as a primary resource quite compelling from a lore standpoint. It’s fascinating to see how deeply rooted these concepts are in the game’s narrative foundation, and Steven’s vision from the TTRPG days does bring a rich background / explanation to it.

However, even with this solid lore foundation, Might there still be some creative room to explore? For instance, while the mortal coil processes Essence into various forms of magic, could we not imagine this process being more physically manifested in some classes? Perhaps for Tanks and Fighters, this "processing" could translate into physical enhancements or battle readiness (akin to Rage or Stamina), reflecting their unique connection to Essence that isn’t traditionally magical but is still a product of their deep, lifelong training and dedication. Hell, call it magical-rage if you want.

This wouldn’t necessarily require a fundamental change to the lore but could be an expansion of how different beings interact with Essence uniquely. Such an adaptation could keep the core principles intact while allowing for gameplay diversity that enhances the distinctiveness of non- or less-magical classes. It might also align well with the notion that not all beings connect to the Essence in the same magical capacity, providing a lore-friendly way to diversify class resources.

As to whether this is feasible at this point in development, who knows, especially considering how much has already been set in stone. Yet, if there's flexibility in the lore to allow for such interpretations, it could be a worthwhile endeavor to enhance player immersion and class identity, making each class feel truly unique in how they harness their power.

Honestly, I just want to roleplay as a dwarf warrior who's blissfully unaware of any fancy magic or wizardry. Picture this: a stout, tough-as-nails dwarf who thinks all this magical mumbo jumbo is just tricks and nonsense. He’s all about the clang of his axe and the thrill of battle. Even though, technically, he’s kind of magical himself—what with being able to perform feats beyond the ordinary dwarf.

It’d be awesome to play a game where my fighter’s strength and resilience come from training and grit, not just tapping into some mystical force. Isn’t there room in this vast world for a warrior who’s just... a warrior? Not a clandestine wizard in armor. That’s the fantasy I’m after—keeping it real with steel and courage, no mana bar attached.

Obviously my fantasy and opinion is biased as is anybody's, but hey I'm just trying to give my feedback in the appropriate place, and in a respectful manner as that's literally what Intrepid keeps asking us to do. Perhaps this will all be fine too, maybe I'll come to realize wizard fighters are super cool and that they play well, I guess we'll see.

Azherae

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Honestly, I just want to roleplay as a dwarf warrior who's blissfully unaware of any fancy magic or wizardry. Picture this: a stout, tough-as-nails dwarf who thinks all this magical mumbo jumbo is just tricks and nonsense. He’s all about the clang of his axe and the thrill of battle. Even though, technically, he’s kind of magical himself—what with being able to perform feats beyond the ordinary dwarf.

It’d be awesome to play a game where my fighter’s strength and resilience come from training and grit, not just tapping into some mystical force. Isn’t there room in this vast world for a warrior who’s just... a warrior? Not a clandestine wizard in armor. That’s the fantasy I’m after—keeping it real with steel and courage, no mana bar attached.

Overall the answer is 'no'. In the same sense that any MMORPG has a base concept/canon of what a character is like, that may or may not match the player's canon.

NPCs will probably treat your Fighter Dwarf 'as if they are using the Essence for things.

It's also a balance question, because introducing different resources changes itemization significantly. We've seen this done before. When it's a thing that builds up from you doing something, it works fine, and maybe your Dwarf relies on Combat Momentum abilities and generally uses very little 'MP' because that's how you built them...

But you still 'need' to be able to 'drink the same MP potion' as everyone else, and 'receive the same MP regen song from the Bard as everyone else'.

Kilion

Greatwarlord wrote: »

It’d be awesome to play a game where my fighter’s strength and resilience come from training and grit, not just tapping into some mystical force. Isn’t there room in this vast world for a warrior who’s just... a warrior? Not a clandestine wizard in armor. That’s the fantasy I’m after—keeping it real with steel and courage, no mana bar attached.

Obviously my fantasy and opinion is biased as is anybody's, but hey I'm just trying to give my feedback in the appropriate place, and in a respectful manner as that's literally what Intrepid keeps asking us to do. Perhaps this will all be fine too, maybe I'll come to realize wizard fighters are super cool and that they play well, I guess we'll see.

I think there is need for a slight correction here: The mortal coil transforms to allow for Tank or Fighter style magic BECAUSE exactly of that physical dedication, without that, the superhuman abilities of Tank and Fighters wouldn't form. And whether every Fighter realizes that with an Intelligence Stat of 5... unlikely. The lore doesn't mention that everyone performing magic is capable of it and this is a just as common a trope in fantasy regarding dwarfs. "This isn't flimsy, pointy-ear, wave yer hands in the air magic - these are RUNES! The have power, nothin to do with magic!"

And on that same note I'd say: The initial reason you stated for changing the resource system was to break with generic feelings... only to go to the generic trope of magic hating dwarfs. And I am not saying this as criticism, but to highlight that some familiarity is exactly what we would want in the game and Ashes might actually be stirring the pot more than most MMOs (and expansions of old brands) did for a long time, polynesian dwarfs, asian inspired tranquility loving Orcs and every playable character being the equivalent of a Jedi in Star Wars for possessing magical powers, while the game actually starts... when times are good instead of in dark times of war that call for heroes to rise...

To me it sounds more that people in many regards want more of what is familiar... like a familiar primary resource system that is not deeply tied to lore.

Arya_Yeshe

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Thank you for your contribution

Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.

It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!

If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!

We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.

My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure

Eomund

I mean, c’mon, every time I pick a tank or fighter, I wanna just smash stuff, not mess around with mana.

I’m in heavy armor, ready to rumble, not cast spells. Why’s my big bad warrior worrying about mana? Makes no sense. Mana for all classes? Feels like I’m just playing a wizard with different skins. Where’s the variety?
Melee should be about straightforward smashing, not managing some magic pool.

If I wanted to play a wizard, I’d pick a wizard. Please don’t make every class a part-time mage.

Glandallin

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Thank you for your contribution

Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.

It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!

If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!

We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.

My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure

Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?

I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.

Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?

unknown

This content has been removed.

Azherae

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Thank you for your contribution

Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.

It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!

If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!

We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.

My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure

Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?

I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.

Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?

Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.

Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.

Hinotori

Azherae wrote: »

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

Greatwarlord wrote: »

Arya_Yeshe wrote: »

I don't even know why this subject came up, since when anyone has to rethink anything and have a Bible long thread of open statements?

I don't have the patience for this anymore, this doesn't help at all

Thank you for your contribution

Totally get that this thread seems long-winded—it’s not everyone’s favorite pastime to debate the finer points of game mechanics. But hey, sometimes it's about more than just posting a drive-by comment.

It’s funny, though, because these discussions are what help shape better gameplay. Not everyone has to write an essay, but a bit more than “this doesn’t help” could really add to the conversation!

If deep dives aren't your thing, that’s cool. But for those of us who get into it, this kind of feedback is gold. So maybe next time, throw in an idea or two? Could be fun. Cheers for popping in!

We don't even know if devs will ever read this and take into consideration, why spend the stamina?
Also, in this forum there's a tendency of very long circle jerks, but it's not that I don't like the subject.

My point is, will spending this time and energy contribute at all? I'm not sure

Shouldn't we be encouraging sharing feedback and posting our thoughts and ideas? Isn't that literally one of the core principles of Ashes/Intrepid's whole approach to developing this game in the way they're doing?

I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong, I'm just providing my thoughts and opinions on what I've seen as feedback.

Posting constructive feedback in the literal official forums seems to me to be the absolute most likely place where devs would find and read it, wouldn't you agree? Shouldn't we as a community be open to difference of opinions on subject like this? Isn't this literally what the devs keep re-iterating every community livestream?

Arya just doesn't like reading much, don't worry about it.

Intrepid is glad for you to talk more, not less.

Exactly. They'd rather you post a thesis than be vague.

Arya_Yeshe

@Greatwarlord

Since you have such healthy view on things, I think its worth a shot!

My take about games overall, being AoC or not:
I don't like when I am stuck in a class that can do one role only and nothing else and it's annoying having absolute hard counters in pvp. It seems AoC will do well in this and the people who are like me will be satisfied, so Intrepid should be careful about being too much focused on making the classes too unique

1. Addressing Claims of Bias and Unnecessary Comparison
That will happen for sure because the path AoC happened, if it was me I would absolutely create a system based on the body, having body energy would suffice for spells and skills: eating, drinking, breathing, having special breathing techniques, stances, battle cries, sleeping, sitting around, etc. I would base on real life, if you have physical energy then you have everything, basically people would take care of their bodies and they would have mental and physical energy. Just like in real life once you get depleted you are completely depleted.

I mean it is not hard creating something entirely new, it's just that devs set their minds that they will "make a game about this and will have this", then it looks like a copy even when it is not.

2. Responding to Concerns About Homogenization and Tradition
Following that body energy idea, mages would have passive, active meditation or look at the stars or the sun and gain energy fast, warriors would flex their muscles or do a chest-thumping like a gorilla, bards could drink something or do some vocal exercises to clear their throats, etc and so on. Making the whole thing based on their bodies, making it organic in such a way that even a child would understand that each heroes catch their breath according to their roles.

It's not hard making something entirely new, just gotta forget that other games exist and look around real life and fresh new look in life will certainly bring the inspiration and then the game will be unique for sure.

Following that though of "let's make a game like/about this xyz" is the very trap that makes so many games look like the same.

It's good that AoC will have their own thing, but still have stuff that anyone can understand.

3. Promoting Gameplay Diversity and Strategic Depth
Please, imagine this, what if you could control the intensity of mana usage? Intensity of rage? If you wanted to breakthrough a blob of enemies you could set your intensity to max and crush then, but then you would be absolutely depleted and would need help from the party members or do something to catch your breath.

Sometimes we should be able to use just half of our true power and sometimes we should be able to double our power even at the cost of being almost defenseless for some time right after.

Violence and restrain would be glorified in a game like this, the people who can sustain fights and be effective would be the best players. Or you got sustain or you dont, you could use this even for defensive skills and tank scary amounts of incomming damage.

Systems like this would assure the game is unique and this would for for pve and pvp, for certain this would make how people use every class.

4. Roleplaying and Class Identity
Yes.

5. Humble Acknowledgment of Diverse Preferences
Yeah, everything is mana is ok to me, not super interesting if all classes and characters spend and regen mana the same way. Even if AoC had mana only it would be fine if all classes have different ways of regenerating and spending mana.

What matters is the classes function differently from each other, if we call it mana or call it fury I don't really care, the names are there just to tell us that different mechanics are in place.

George_Black

I cant talk about ways to improve class identity, based on active skills and animations, weapon expertise/requirements, but I cant care less about different resources.
MP cost for skills is the norm across most video games. Who cares.

rollox

Kilion wrote: »

So by the time you finished your character creation and click on play from a story perspective, your character has spent a few decades devoting themselves to that one particular kind of magic that you select via choice of your first Archetype, which is also why you won't be able to fundamentally move away from that even after choosing a different secondary Archetype. Us levelling up in that line of thinking means that the connection to our Archetypes magic grows strong, resulting in new skills

One point about this in lore. Is that characters are new arrivals on Verra. While on Sanctus there was a separation from The Essence. I don't think it is fair to say that new character has had decades to train and learn about how to use this essence or even have much awareness of their mortal coil.

All arrivals through the portals maybe have been trained for decades in physical arts, fighting. Or knowledge studies like weather or astronomy. But the use of essence is possibly only known about through ancient texts and studies. There has been no practice of it on arrival.

So it would make sense that new arrivals have maybe gotten an orientation. Some learnings and texts that describe what the essence is and maybe some theory on what the mortal coil is and how mana generates. But the only real info would be from those who came to Verra before us.so there is a knowledge that once you arrive you might have this affinity grow within you to tap into the essence and provide you with this mana.

But at that point you are raw and unpracticed, undisciplined in the use of mana and the essence. So as a fighter you use your standard momentum and slash with your sword which you have been battle trained in for years.And learn that these beings and creatures of Verra are strong with supernatural powers. Just simply slashing with your sword is not very effective. But you learn quickly that when I slash and gain momentum, I can channel this essence through my mortal coil, to magically make my sword lighter, to magically leap ten feet instead of just jumping a couple feet. To magically use my momentum to turn a simple spin move into a whirling dervish sort of whirlwind. Or when I cleave I can channel that essence to project a wave of energy forward in the direction I cleave.

So all skills learned as a warrior in the physical world still apply. It is just that with learning how your skills are changed through essence makes you that much stronger that it is just not useful enough to just cleave. If you really want to protect yourself, or kill that walking mushroom in front of your it takes manipulation of this essence to provide that extra umph to actually do some real damage to it.

So it seems to make sense that we all have this original Sanctus style of fighting, using momentum, control, divine power, courage. But suddenly there is this new powerful enhancement I can use, raw power through the essence that I must learn how to use and become disciplined with. That makes my regular Sanctus non magical style become magically imbued super powers though the essence in Verra.

I learned quickly that challenging someone who used this essence and magic resulted in defeat. It became essential to learn how to channel and use this power to even match up against someone else in Verra who also had this power to channel the essence.

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