What surprised you in the FireBrand fight?

Azherae

Please remember that this is not the feedback thread.

If you have feedback on FireBrand and believe improvements are needed or have things you consider important to see in other dragons, make sure to add them here.

(I don't really mind if this thread ends up merged into the feedback thread, but I prefer 'off topic' or 'pre-feedback' discussion to not end up mixed in with the rest, is all)

Depraved

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

The problem with the way you defend Intrepid/engage other posters is that if you're wrong, it's really demoralizing.

These types of feedback don't come from thin air, Intrepid tells us things that imply we are supposed to be at least a little impressed. This whole thread came from the idea that the designer of the dragon said the dragon might do something surprising.

It could simply be that the situation to trigger the surprising mechanic never came up, and it's supposed to surprise us in A2 when we fight it ourselves.

Or it could be that the dev thought they really came up with something unique and were wrong. Stop being a dick to people who want to help in the second case.

RocketFarmer

I think they were talking concept about the surprise aspect of a boss, not that the surprise would occur in the showcase. But Intrepid may want to highlight the differences in the concept discussions and what they plan to showcase so that people don’t come away with, “what surprise?” Maybe they did and I missed it, but I’ve watched it three times now and don’t recall that happening.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

The problem with the way you defend Intrepid/engage other posters is that if you're wrong, it's really demoralizing.

These types of feedback don't come from thin air, Intrepid tells us things that imply we are supposed to be at least a little impressed. This whole thread came from the idea that the designer of the dragon said the dragon might do something surprising.

It could simply be that the situation to trigger the surprising mechanic never came up, and it's supposed to surprise us in A2 when we fight it ourselves.

Or it could be that the dev thought they really came up with something unique and were wrong. Stop being a dick to people who want to help in the second case.

glad we are in a free society xD

anyways to focus on the point you are making, the designer said the dragon will do things that are expected from dragons, such as a tail swipe, a claw attack and a fire breath attack, and will also do things that arent expected from dragons. he didn't say that there will be revolutionary or groundbreaking mechanics. he just said the dragon will do things that arent expected from dragons.

imagine you are fighting a wolf. you expect the wolf to lunge and bite you. you don't expect the wolf to swipe you with its claws. that's that you would expect from a tiger. if a wolf in verra swipes you, that's an unexpected action from a wolf, and claw swiping isn't anything groundbreaking. you would also not expect a wolf or a tiger to beat its chest, charge at you, jump in the air and slap you. that's what the dev was referring to.

back to drama. why you never call out other people hubris or egos thinking they know more? would you tell your doctor what tests to run on you and how to diagnose you? what would you do if you saw someone sick trying to tell their doctor what kind of tests they need to run on them, what kind of meds they need to prescribe, etc.?

edit: i wasnt particularly talking about the person i replied to. also, you missed me, admit it xD

Azherae

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

The problem with the way you defend Intrepid/engage other posters is that if you're wrong, it's really demoralizing.

These types of feedback don't come from thin air, Intrepid tells us things that imply we are supposed to be at least a little impressed. This whole thread came from the idea that the designer of the dragon said the dragon might do something surprising.

It could simply be that the situation to trigger the surprising mechanic never came up, and it's supposed to surprise us in A2 when we fight it ourselves.

Or it could be that the dev thought they really came up with something unique and were wrong. Stop being a dick to people who want to help in the second case.

glad we are in a free society xD

anyways to focus on the point you are making, the designer said the dragon will do things that are expected from dragons, such as a tail swipe, a claw attack and a fire breath attack, and will also do things that arent expected from dragons. he didn't say that there will be revolutionary or groundbreaking mechanics. he just said the dragon will do things that arent expected from dragons.

imagine you are fighting a wolf. you expect the wolf to lunge and bite you. you don't expect the wolf to swipe you with its claws. that's that you would expect from a tiger. if a wolf in verra swipes you, that's an unexpected action from a wolf, and claw swiping isn't anything groundbreaking. you would also not expect a wolf or a tiger to beat its chest, charge at you, jump in the air and slap you. that's what the dev was referring to.

back to drama. why you never call out other people hubris or egos thinking they know more? would you tell your doctor what tests to run on you and how to diagnose you? what would you do if you saw someone sick trying to tell their doctor what kind of tests they need to run on them, what kind of meds they need to prescribe, etc.?

I would check if there was a reason that person doing that knew what they were fucking talking about.

You know how many people nearly die in this world because they go to doctor after doctor who brushes them off and gives them the same shallow diagnosis and the same useless tests instead of listening to the patient who knows from experience why those things don't work?

Anyways, be fed, my dear social vampire. You can imagine that you actually upset me, now.

JustVine

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

Guy thinks he's Moriarty -sighs- If I were Intrepid I'd be really annoyed you all keep talking down to Laetitian like this. Real over protective soccer mom energy when they just wanna have a good game.

Depraved

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

Depraved wrote: »

Laetitian wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

Nerror wrote: »

While there were no surprises for any experienced or semi-experienced MMO player in that dragon fight, Steven sometimes presents things as if the target audience are new players to the genre as well. For someone who hasn't fought a dragon, or boss in general, sure, it might be a little surprising with some of the attacks or adds that give a soft-rage buff to the boss. I am guessing that's the lens it was intended to be viewed through.

I completely agree with this, but I think you are missing an important aspect.

In terms of PvE content, Steven is one of those new players. I'm sure the encounter did things he has never seen before - even if it is only basic mechanics at play to anyone that has run PvE content.

I abhor the word elitism, but you'll eventually change my mind about that.
Anyway, Steven wasn't even the one who said that; that was all Chong. What's with the snarkiness?

I wasn't impressed by the fight either. I think the PvE-enthusiasts at this point have to recognise that they have to restrict their highest expectations to the announced instanced skillcheck encounters.
The main appeal for open world experiences will primarily have to come from mechanics that make PvX more challenging and interesting.

That said, I still have hopes in the team leaning more into gimmicks that might make the fight more basic-looking/predictable, but also more challenging in requiring more strict player coordination. (Not just instadeath effects, but things like damage immunity windows or damage reflections, or massive shield effects for the boss, or requiring specific player skills to break boss casts or effects, etc.)

I don't think Intrepid can handle the combination
of flashy/aesthetically impressive AND difficult/demanding/engaging, so I'm hoping they'll lean more into just making it challenging, without worrying so much about making it look perfect.
I think that's part.of what's holding them back from introducing more advanced mechanics.

and you got all that from an introductory, level 25 boss when the max level is 50, on a game that isn't even out yet and its in active development, and didn't even have the boss completely finished.

sherlock holmes has arrived

The problem with the way you defend Intrepid/engage other posters is that if you're wrong, it's really demoralizing.

These types of feedback don't come from thin air, Intrepid tells us things that imply we are supposed to be at least a little impressed. This whole thread came from the idea that the designer of the dragon said the dragon might do something surprising.

It could simply be that the situation to trigger the surprising mechanic never came up, and it's supposed to surprise us in A2 when we fight it ourselves.

Or it could be that the dev thought they really came up with something unique and were wrong. Stop being a dick to people who want to help in the second case.

glad we are in a free society xD

anyways to focus on the point you are making, the designer said the dragon will do things that are expected from dragons, such as a tail swipe, a claw attack and a fire breath attack, and will also do things that arent expected from dragons. he didn't say that there will be revolutionary or groundbreaking mechanics. he just said the dragon will do things that arent expected from dragons.

imagine you are fighting a wolf. you expect the wolf to lunge and bite you. you don't expect the wolf to swipe you with its claws. that's that you would expect from a tiger. if a wolf in verra swipes you, that's an unexpected action from a wolf, and claw swiping isn't anything groundbreaking. you would also not expect a wolf or a tiger to beat its chest, charge at you, jump in the air and slap you. that's what the dev was referring to.

back to drama. why you never call out other people hubris or egos thinking they know more? would you tell your doctor what tests to run on you and how to diagnose you? what would you do if you saw someone sick trying to tell their doctor what kind of tests they need to run on them, what kind of meds they need to prescribe, etc.?

I would check if there was a reason that person doing that knew what they were fucking talking about.

You know how many people nearly die in this world because they go to doctor after doctor who brushes them off and gives them the same shallow diagnosis and the same useless tests instead of listening to the patient who knows from experience why those things don't work?

Anyways, be fed, my dear social vampire. You can imagine that you actually upset me, now.

do you also know how many people are saved by doctors, specially when they listen to them? probably lot more.

the point is that people try to tell others how to do their job and consider it good feedback. and you also think that's good feedback. good feedback is different.

imagine if you were telling an architect how to design a house, or an engineer / construction worker how to build it, when you've never learned how to do it or done it. that's the point I'm trying to make with the doctor analogy.