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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Current Combat in Ashes: Updated
RonDog98
Member, Alpha Two
Hey Ashes Community,
I think these recent updates look great, but I still feel the combat look is looking dull from an animation and impact stand point. I also think the visual clarity is currently TERRIBLE.
This also seems to be the number 1 complaint I see about Ashes that I see over and over again. People seem to think that combat at this point won’t radically change and it’s close to the finish product. Intrepid has to be aware how vital good combat is and that people continuously cite combat as this games weakest link, and yet they rarely directly acknowledge this behind the scene design thoughts are rarely shared.
My question for the Devs is:
How much are you guys willing to overhaul combat at this point? Say alpha two launches and the combat is still unanimously the considered the weakest part of the game, at this point in development are you guys able to radically change it given that’s what the community wants?
And for the community, what are your thoughts on how combat currently looks and feels?
I think these recent updates look great, but I still feel the combat look is looking dull from an animation and impact stand point. I also think the visual clarity is currently TERRIBLE.
This also seems to be the number 1 complaint I see about Ashes that I see over and over again. People seem to think that combat at this point won’t radically change and it’s close to the finish product. Intrepid has to be aware how vital good combat is and that people continuously cite combat as this games weakest link, and yet they rarely directly acknowledge this behind the scene design thoughts are rarely shared.
My question for the Devs is:
How much are you guys willing to overhaul combat at this point? Say alpha two launches and the combat is still unanimously the considered the weakest part of the game, at this point in development are you guys able to radically change it given that’s what the community wants?
And for the community, what are your thoughts on how combat currently looks and feels?
1
Comments
Here is my list
L2
Tera
Ff14
Gw2
Eso
Bdo
AA
And here are some games I hope one day an mmo can manage to achieve which woupd be a 10/10 in responsiveness, animation and aesthetics (but needing more appropriate mechanisms due to an mmos nature)
Dark souls games
Nioh
Witcher
Elden ring
Lords of the fallen.
I would like to hear your list and then we can compare AoC combat.
To be fair Witcher combat was pretty lame but yeah a mmorpg with Elden ring like combat is a dream
I liked the way they did good animations for all the weapons and consumables, and how the weapons themselves were visible when sheathed.
Great transitioning animations. Mmos should aim for that.
it was called new world, and all the care bears shit all over it cause they sucked without their tab targeting
Yeah wasn't all those game breaking bugs it was people bitching about tab targeting.
Tera would be my benchmark. Problem is it works as a PvE system but not a PvP system.
There is too much movement in that system to create any kind of real combat. In systems like that if you want to kill anyone you have to stun lock them so you can land anything. Which creates feels bad moments.
did you actually play the game or you going off what you think you know from youtubers farming clicks by shitting on the game
they are still iterating over all the art...
But looking at it, its combat still doesn't convince anyone unless you're a tab target lover, so if they don't manage to change or modify the current combat, this game will die.
Lastly, my go-to games for perfect combat would be Elden Ring, New World, BDO, action combat in general.
I haven't played the game, so I do not know how it feels to play, which is one of the key parts.
Visually, it's alright, but it is going to improve.
I have tried T&L beta, and uninstalled it after 1h due to how awful the combat felt to me.
WoW probably 8/10
Archeage 7/10
ESO 5/10
BDO 6/10
But "combat" incorporates so many things, beyond just animations and targeting system. It's the ability design, mechanics, visual and sound effects - and importantly the general feel. Another key part is class system, or rather build customizability that ties it all together, for me at least.
- WoW just feels smooth, and good, good mechanics and ability design overall. Visually it's decent/good. Class system is okay to decent.
- Archeage is not as smooth as WoW, mechanics are good, abilities are good as well. Visually maybe not as good as WoW, but still decent. Class system is good.
- ESO has also bad ability design and mechanics, on top of animations and visual/sounds being poor. - Class system was great, with lots of customizability in terms of abilities, but also how gear impacts your abilities.
- BDO for example, to me, has great animations and visual/sound effects, it felt good to use abilities, but the mechanics and ability design felt meh to me. Class system/customizability was bad.
So, not only do they need to nail the animations, visuals in general, and sound effects. They need to nail the feel (which we cannot know through watching a video), mechanics, ability design, class system and customizability in general.
So far, ability design and mechanics are decent, class system is promising, customizability remains to be seen, and visuals, animations, and sounds will only improve, and those are not at a final stage yet.
For over a year, I’ve been saying that combat is definitely the weakest part of Ashes of Creation, and it worries me the most as someone who has been following and supporting the game since Kickstarter. While I’m not concerned about the environment, assets, or overall scope of the game—they’re clearly heading in the right direction there—the combat feels so lackluster that it could potentially ruin the whole experience for me if it’s not drastically improved.
It’s not just about the combat, but also the general animations like running, which lack a sense of weight. In the forum thread for the last livestream, I mentioned that the animations and combat look stiff, and here are my main concerns:
- Stiff Animations: The transitions and fluidity of movements are lacking, making combat feel rigid and unnatural.
- Missing Weight: Characters don't feel like they have any physical presence or impact in the world, which detracts from the immersion.
- Limited Body Animations: It seems like not enough body parts are animated, leading to a lack of dynamism and realism in movements.
I’d love to see the developers focus on improving these aspects, perhaps by looking at how other successful games achieve more fluid and weighty combat systems. It’s important for the community to come together and voice these concerns, as improving combat could significantly enhance the overall experience of the game.
I will point substanticial examples of:
At 6:36 the character is out of combat, but still it is absolutely rigid and ready for a fight at all times, the character is never relaxed and his arms are always in a stance of being ready to fight, the character's supporting foot, which is the right foot, is positioned backwards, while the left side of the body is projected forward:
This would never be the case in GW2
At 7:21, haracter's kneeling animation is another case of bad timing, making the animation look like a Powerpoint slideshow, the animatio progresses in a flat timeline when it should have different speeds, it should start slowly, then speed up and at the momment the knee his the floor then the animation should be slowed again.
It's not important if we kneel slowly like that in real life, it doesn't look in a game animation, we have to do a few things differently than in real life so the animation becomes enticing.
At 10:06, Steven casts that spell which the character puts his arms up and do that gesture, this is not cool since the arms have a flat speed, this one is a bit painful to watch.
Etc, this bad timing
This orchestra conductor shows it all, the video also has spell effects to make it easier:
The people in this video are not even in the gaming industry.
AoC:
I am being ruthless here about this, sorry.
The Dragon's animations and effects are amazing, the dragon is in another level and have no problems. Now someone has to go back and update every animation of every character
LOL
well, what if we ask someone who likes tab target instead? they could say that new world, bdo and elden ring will die if they don't fix the combat.
its a matter of taste. what they have to do is make the best targetted combat since they are going for targeted combat.
edit: I prefer action combat, just saying, but still.
This is a divisive issue though.
You're probably in the minority by now. Someone does bring it up in their feedback, nearly every livestream, often with comparisons.
But there are just as many (probably far more) people who think it's great as is. Just a style thing.
Well, old school players like tab target, modern players don't, they are more used to combat action and frenzy. Throne and Liberty is a perfect example of the failure of tab target. NW is the perfect example of how combat systems should be in a modern mmo, only NW failed in quality content.
Anyway, AoC I hope that in the alpha 2 tests of AoC they radically change their systems and one of them must be a priority, the combat system, and adapt to the demands of the market.
Can't really agree with your points on BDO, any negative points that are in the game you did not actually bring them up. Which raises the question that you most likely did not pass the skill ceiling element of that game.. Which makes sense if you are talking about the mechanics because that is the part where it has a much higher skill curve. If you don't understand it with each class playing differently its going to be rough for you.
Also customization / combat are two separate topics.
Wow might have been higher back in the day but combat wise that game is a 5/10 right now
Wow has many many problems, but the feeling of moment to moment combat isn't one of them.
You cannot please both camps on this and also balance your game. You already mostly chose the WoW side. I'd even say to mostly-ignore all us 'floaty combat'-haters.
Some of us can be 'appeased', but 'pleased' is a stretch, and the cost of compromise to get even 'appeased' will probably irritate the WoW players.
I, at least, am fine with waiting for another game with my preferred combat, as long as I can avoid having to care about my dispreferred combat while playing Ashes. The thing I don't want is some janky 'free movement but lots of CC + spells that leave you unresponsive' in a game built for WoW players.
No matter how much I hate 'free movement' style WoW combat, I hate 'halfassing WoW combat by trying to add more risk-reward timing to it' even more, especially in a game so open to feedback that will almost certainly be constantly flip-flopping about how much mobility a powerful ability should let you retain.
First off, I do not want to get into yet another discussion about tab-target vs action combat here.
The feel and mechanics is always going to be personal, depending on which style you like more.
I'm personally fine with combos, and would like them to be present in Ashes as well, but not like they were done in BDO. There you have to memorize all the different button presses, and I instead prefer having a skill bar with all my skills listed. Also, mechanics and ability design in general were meh to me, because it all focuses around AoEs, and there isn't as much nuance to skills and what they do, effects they apply, etc. as is present in most tab-target games. Which is also something Ashes will have, especially with the augment system further enhancing your abilities.
I'd give you more reasons why I dislike it, but I probably have done so already in the past 2 years, when that game was still fresh in my memory.
--
Regarding the second point: On the contrary, I think class/build customization (class system) is tied to the combat - they are different things, yes - but also connected. Because through selecting different abilities, creating different builds, and customizing a class to your liking, you are experiencing the combat system in a different way than another player, and in a way that will make you like the combat more.
In some games, combat is just boring depending on which class you choose, and that is often a personal thing (but sometimes it's due to class design, where certain classes simply ARE more boring).
I'm maybe more of a fan of Melee Warrior types of classes, and I'm going to have more fun playing that, then an Archer or something similar.
In WoW for example, I was a fan of Blood DK, and I liked the playstyle, however I really didn't like the other 2 builds (Frost and Unholy). I picked Blood variant, because it felt good to play to me, and I enjoyed the combat when using that class. At the same time, I didn't enjoy the combat with other builds.
If I had only played an Unholy DK, I'd say combat was 5/10, and pretty meh. But, because I played other builds, or even other classes, I can say that for the most part I liked the combat, and I can give it a higher score.
This is mostly due to ability design, which has a huge impact, but also because of ability to select and customize your class, and which abilities you want to use.
Also I find it ironic Elden Ring is even on that list. No offence to From Software, but their network stack is absolutely terrible, especially on PC. Multiplayer barely holds together in invasions with 4 being the max officially supported player number. Latency issues and packet drop are pretty common, and its only partially due to the p2p nature of the multiplayer.
The last MMO which came close to the fps style of combat for me was not so ironically...Darkfall. You actually had to aim your melee and range attacks. That game was rather "junky" in its mechanics, and its server and client performance just fell apart in large scale pvp.
Blown past falling sands…
But the animations in those games and the responsiveness (smoothness of transitioning between attacks, whether you complete them in quick succession, delay them, feint them) is a level of detail that I hope I see one mmo achieve in the future.
I did not say that "an mmo should use soulslike combat".