ASHES SHOULD REMOVE THE VISUAL "1-50 CLASSIC MECHANIC FOR LEVELING

The problem with the leveling system is that it divides players based on the time it takes to increase a number attached to their name. Some players have jobs, some are casual, and others are hardcore, each with different expectations based on what they have achieved and the time they’ve invested to reach a specific level.

In a dynamic game like Ashes of Creation, having a traditional level number next to your name undermines the game’s replay-ability and enjoyment. My suggestion is to remove the "1-50" leveling system entirely. This would eliminate the pressure or frustration for all types of players, allowing them to focus on the game's core dynamic features instead of chasing numbers. I believe this would be a win for Intrepid Studios, as it could attract a wider range of players.

Since AoC already bases many of its systems on time progression or percentage completion, showing a level number isn’t necessary. This would give the developers flexibility to adjust the time or effort required to unlock features, without being tied to a leveling system. Players could progress naturally, following whatever path they prefer, without feeling discouraged by seeing other players at higher levels.

Instead of increasing a number with experience from killing monsters, it could simply fill a bar or percentage towards unlocking something. Similarly, gear should not be tied to a level; the difficulty of obtaining it already provides an "invisible level" based on the challenge faced.

Another issue with traditional levels is the mentality of “What will I do once I reach level 50?” Removing the level system altogether would shift the focus away from reaching a particular number and encourage players to enjoy the journey. You could still implement ranks based on achievements or milestones, but these ranks wouldn’t have visible levels attached to them, so the time required to reach them remains unknown, allowing everyone to progress at their own pace.

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Ludullu

Removing the visual indicator will not remove the requirement for progress, but it will make it waaay harder to tell if you're progressing. It will also make it harder to know if your pvp opponent is way stronger than you. Unlinking gear from lvls would make it harder to understand the gear progression.

In other words, removing this visual indicator would make the game way harder for all the casuals that need their hand held through the game. Ashes is already hardcore enough, so I don't think we need this kind of hardcore approach as well.

Syblitrh

Contrary, having a visual level indicator is creating a hardcore mindset from the start, and that will most likely increase based on how long it takes to switch that "lvl" number in the visual indicator. Not having a visual indicator it will simply push you to discover more, rather than chasing a visual number, knowing the outcome.

daveywavey

The 'Level Up' is the hit of dopamine that makes you feel like you've achieved something. That reason to play the extra 30mins to hit that next level. That sense of anticipation as you chase down your next set of skills that you can unlock. The bragging rights you have over your guildies that haven't levelled up as quickly. The feeling of in-game progression that makes the time you've spent seem worthwhile.

Levels are still needed in gaming.

Syblitrh

You can still experience the same dopamine rush without a visible level indicator, especially since there's a level cap. The way it's structured now implies that the sense of achievement disappears once you reach the visual level 50 indicator. But is that really the case? Having a visible level number creates a division between new and experienced players, which could discourage potential newcomers from joining the game.
A visible level indicator also leads to significant drama with updates. When new gear comes out with higher level requirements, it clearly signals that older gear is now obsolete. By removing the visible level indicator, you reduce these expectations and mental barriers. Players will be more focused on enjoying the progression and adapting to updates naturally, rather than feeling discouraged by numbers and the time required to reach them.

bloodprophet

I really hate GW2 and hope Intrepid stay as far away from this as possible.

Pendragxn

I see both the pros and cons of character-leveling and gear-progression systems, but I’m undecided on which side I lean towards. On one hand, character leveling feels outdated, but on the other, gear-progression systems can become bloated and complex.

Personally, I prefer a gear-progression system like the one in Albion Online, where you level gear by using it. In this system, wearing and actively using a piece of gear leads to progression, and as you level up, you unlock higher tiers (e.g., after advancing a chest piece, you gain access to Tier 2 or Tier 3 gear). This method offers players more freedom and flexibility, enhancing the MMO experience by steering away from the often restrictive, linear, vertical character-leveling seen in more narrative-driven RPGs. In Albion Online, the progression feels more horizontally aligned, allowing for a more dynamic style of play. Plus, there’s a unique sense of identity and strategy in Albion, as you literally “are what you wear.” Your gear defines your role and capabilities, making the system feel more immersive and reflective of your choices.

However, I’m not entirely sure how a class system would function without character leveling and relying solely on gear progression. It becomes tricky to integrate weapon skills with character skills and augments, as these are often tied to character development. Balancing gear-based progression while keeping meaningful skill advancement would be a challenge that needs thoughtful design.

That said, if someone could develop a modern gear-progression system that better suits MMOs, it might strike the right balance. However, I understand that character levels help certain players, offering them visual cues and a sense of progression that can be reassuring. For those who appreciate being guided or “hand-held” through clear progression stages, a character-level system has its advantages.

Githal

People need small goals in order to feel engaged in the system.
Having few big goals that you need weeks to accomplish wont be good for retaining players.

Ofc AOC may introduce some new small goals instead of the leveling system, but the levels is something that has proven that it works for the last few decades. So i dont think leveling system is the problem here.

As something which i could suggest is to cap the levels at the start of the game. For example at game launch the level cap is lvl 20. So no matter if someone plays 24 hours per day, or someone plays 4 they will reach same level and one wont be with 40 levels ahead.
And the level cap can increase with the development of nodes. So the moment THE FIRST NODE IN THE SERVER advances to lvl 3, the Global lvl cap of all players on the server becomes 30, on node lvl 4 you get lvl 40, and at metropolis you unlock lvl 50.

Flanker

Syblitrh wrote: »

My suggestion is to remove the "1-50" leveling system entirely. This would eliminate the pressure or frustration for all types of players, allowing them to focus on the game's core dynamic features instead of chasing numbers. I believe this would be a win for Intrepid Studios, as it could attract a wider range of players.

1. This is obviously not going to happen
2. It's much easier to change one's perception instead of hoping that Intrepid will remove a system that they will never remove

McShave

Intrepid talks about a character's level as their "adventuring level", meaning that they could be implementing many other leveling systems. When we talk about combat and combat power, it is much easier to have a number that represents your character's progression towards maximum combat power.

What I'm interested in is what sources of xp will contribute to "adventure level", and what will contribute to other level systems (i.e. artisan skills, market usage, node contribution factors).

Caww

my own preference is to have a simple leveling system easily understood and relatable to prior mmo experiences which, for me, would be a numerically-based leveling progression method

Myosotys

Syblitrh wrote: »

The problem with the leveling system is that it divides players based on the time it takes to increase a number attached to their name. Some players have jobs, some are casual, and others are hardcore, each with different expectations based on what they have achieved and the time they’ve invested to reach a specific level.

In a dynamic game like Ashes of Creation, having a traditional level number next to your name undermines the game’s replay-ability and enjoyment. My suggestion is to remove the "1-50" leveling system entirely. This would eliminate the pressure or frustration for all types of players, allowing them to focus on the game's core dynamic features instead of chasing numbers. I believe this would be a win for Intrepid Studios, as it could attract a wider range of players.

Since AoC already bases many of its systems on time progression or percentage completion, showing a level number isn’t necessary. This would give the developers flexibility to adjust the time or effort required to unlock features, without being tied to a leveling system. Players could progress naturally, following whatever path they prefer, without feeling discouraged by seeing other players at higher levels.

Instead of increasing a number with experience from killing monsters, it could simply fill a bar or percentage towards unlocking something. Similarly, gear should not be tied to a level; the difficulty of obtaining it already provides an "invisible level" based on the challenge faced.

Another issue with traditional levels is the mentality of “What will I do once I reach level 50?” Removing the level system altogether would shift the focus away from reaching a particular number and encourage players to enjoy the journey. You could still implement ranks based on achievements or milestones, but these ranks wouldn’t have visible levels attached to them, so the time required to reach them remains unknown, allowing everyone to progress at their own pace.

They did it in Counter Strike, I can confirm that PvP is fun.

Caeryl

So no change except.. removing the number?

A player that's 'filled up a bar' 10 times will be better off than a player that's only 'filled up a bar' 5 times, because that's just leveling up without calling it that.

Horizontal progression will exist alongside the standard character level, but numbers are the most effective a succinct way to communicate how much time you've spent in one area of the game or another.

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

1. This is obviously not going to happen.
2. It's much easier to change one's perception instead of hoping that Intrepid will remove a system that they will never remove.

LMFAO
Then... why do you have two threads and more than 2 hours worth of videos suggesting slower, longer Leveling speeds???

Dygz

Syblitrh wrote: »

You can still experience the same dopamine rush without a visible level indicator, especially since there's a level cap. The way it's structured now implies that the sense of achievement disappears once you reach the visual level 50 indicator. But is that really the case? Having a visible level number creates a division between new and experienced players, which could discourage potential newcomers from joining the game.

There needs to be a progression bar for the player.
That helps guage the spent on progression in each play session.

Jealousy over people being a higher Level than you seems to me like a personal problem.
Mostly, since 8 Levels difference is going to cause an issue with gaining xp - we need some way to know the Levels of the people we're grouping with.
Also helps us figure out what Level of encounters/challenges our Group will be trying to complete.

Division based on Level disparity will happen in any case.
Probably better to be sooner rather than later?
Why wipe a bunch of times while trying to complete Level 20 challenges before realizing it's because 3 people in the 8-person Group are Level 10 instead of Level 20.

Syblitrh wrote: »

A visible level indicator also leads to significant drama with updates. When new gear comes out with higher level requirements, it clearly signals that older gear is now obsolete. By removing the visible level indicator, you reduce these expectations and mental barriers. Players will be more focused on enjoying the progression and adapting to updates naturally, rather than feeling discouraged by numbers and the time required to reach them.

Yeah. It's a good thing for people to be able to see that Gear Score is low in order to help people acquire Gear that increases their Gear Score - instead of just assuming the player sucks at combat.

Level indicators already help players enjoy progressing and adapt to updates "naturally".
Feeling discouraged by numbers, again, is a personal problem... really has nothing to do with game design.

Counter Strike is an FPS; not an RPG.
Asking for Class Levels to be removed from an RPG is like asking to be able to use your hands more often in Soccer because it's fun to do that in American Football.

Ashes has many other progression paths besides just the Adventurer path:
Artisan, Social Org, Race, Religion, Node, Guild, Naval, Highwaymen, Bounty Hunter... in addition to Sieges and Wars and Caravans and the Story EVents system.
Also, new content is planned to drop every 3-4 months.

Dygz

Githal wrote: »

As something which i could suggest is to cap the levels at the start of the game. For example at game launch the level cap is lvl 20. So no matter if someone plays 24 hours per day, or someone plays 4 they will reach same level and one wont be with 40 levels ahead.
And the level cap can increase with the development of nodes. So the moment THE FIRST NODE IN THE SERVER advances to lvl 3, the Global lvl cap of all players on the server becomes 30, on node lvl 4 you get lvl 40, and at metropolis you unlock lvl 50.

By design, this is basically kinda already the case.

Flanker

Dygz wrote: »

Flanker wrote: »

1. This is obviously not going to happen.
2. It's much easier to change one's perception instead of hoping that Intrepid will remove a system that they will never remove.

LMFAO
Then... why do you have two threads and more than 2 hours worth of videos suggesting slower, longer Leveling speeds???

Apparently because I have a firm belief that the suggestion will be a net positive for a game because of a long list of reasons (we only discussed half of them yesterday on the podcast); and all those reasons combined mould a strong enough point to at least take it into consideration.

Unlike something like this this which clearly is not happening as it would require reworking a lot of systems for no serious reason.

Syblitrh wrote: »

My suggestion is to remove the "1-50" leveling system entirely.

nanfoodle

I would be happy if IS made this game more like ESO when it comes to level. Mobs scale and so do team mates. Play with anyone and do any content. IMO leveling is a waste of money. Ashes at least makes it so you revisit old areas with content gated for your level.

RocketFarmer

Level number would need to be replaced by something else. But overall it’s pretty standard for MMORPGs, especially those Steven is inspired by, to go with levels.

The number itself is just a way to measure/compare the relative strengths of characters (theoretically). More or less a p*ssing contest for some. Could go old school and have levels capped at 10, although progression at each level would need to be pretty steep. Unless you structured character level based off of leveling in individual skills/abilities until you met the prerequisites for the next level. That’s more in line with the career path structure of Warhammer Fantasy RPG, for example.

Players, I am pretty certain although can’t speak for all of them, want something tangible to show and reward progress. And the more frequently the “pay off” the better. Kind of like a slot machine. They want the bells and flashing lights within so many spins to keep them putting those coins in (subscription) and pulling the lever (playing). I think it also has to happen after max level or they lose interest. That’s the challenge most games are facing these days. Used to be that we grognards would grind for weeks to gain minor increments of progression that today’s player wouldn’t bother with. Shorter attention spans. It’s part of the whole instant information/social media deal where you don’t need to wait for the morning paper the next day to see how your team did or what some bozo on the other side of the world did. Everything today is now and boring after a few minutes. It’s a billion emails at work about mostly nothing whereas in the past communication was better thought out and expressed (well at least they tried to be). But they also want those rewards to be meaningful and not just a digit increase.

Some things I think players want with respect to progression:

1. Increased health/HP to last longer in combat.
2. New skills, improved skills or bonuses, or more options for their character. Do more things, break more things.
3. Ability to face tougher opponents, which can include aspects of #1 or #2.
4. Better gear or access to better gear.
5. Progression towards a class story arc.
6. Progression towards an overall story or event arc.
7. Progression of a guild association.
8. Progression of node association.
9. Access to resources.
10. Gathering, processing or crafting progression that leads to #4 or #9 (wrt tools).
11. Achievements, more aligned to the character story arc the better (or what could be referred to a story arc since this is a game not a novel). However Balders Gate 3 demonstrates how this can be done, I don’t expect Ashes to do that.
12. Availability of player choices. As a game progresses I believe players would prefer a broader range of options for play rather than reducing the number of options (example of reduction is end game raids and dungeons as the only real content).
13. Increased player ranking in the chosen areas of interest.
14. Increased reputation (player/family/social org/guild/node).
15. Building an empire, physically, socially or economically.
16. Building an intelligence network.
17. Content for streaming.
18. For some, a glorious death…or many glorious deaths.
19. Obtaining every in game mount or every in game gear set. In other words, the collector.
20. Exploring new regions/nodes.

Pretty sure there’s more than that.

Depraved

Syblitrh wrote: »

The problem with the leveling system is that it divides players based on the time it takes to increase a number attached to their name. Some players have jobs, some are casual, and others are hardcore, each with different expectations based on what they have achieved and the time they’ve invested to reach a specific level.

In a dynamic game like Ashes of Creation, having a traditional level number next to your name undermines the game’s replay-ability and enjoyment

it doesn't ;3

also, if there is progression, hardcore players will always be ahead. showing a progression bar or whatever to unlock something is the level bar that its already shown 8D. hardcore players will always be ahead in progression, no matter how you disguise that progression.

Dygz

Flanker wrote: »

Unlike something like this this which clearly is not happening as it would require reworking a lot of systems for no serious reason.

It's only your confirmation bias that makes you think your suggestion is significantly different.
Syblitrh also believes their suggestion would be a net positive for the game.

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