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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest news on Alpha Two.
Check out general Announcements here to see the latest news on Ashes of Creation & Intrepid Studios.
To get the quickest updates regarding Alpha Two, connect your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
At CLvl 50/endgame, what is the point of almost any Craft skill at Master level or lower? [long]
MissionCreep
Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
1) At endgame (or even at freshly-minted CLvl 50), other than selling equipment to alts, what is the utility of a Master-level Crafting skill?
1a) Let's say it takes 200 hours to level a Master level 30-40 to the cap. The market for that gear is for alts and new players. Is all that time and effort worth it for you personally? I'm sure that on paper it looks beneficial to the macro economy, but how does it benefit your own micro-economy, your personal risk/reward calculations when you could have applied those 200 hours to something else?
1b) Because even if you think you are going to do it for profit, the problem is that while you are capped at Master 30-40, you will be competing in the market with the people on the Grandmaster 40-50 track, who are selling their 30-40 gear that they don't want, that they only made because they need the crafting XP and enough gold to break even.
Of course, they would gladly TAKE more gold, but to achieve Grandmastery they don't actually NEED more than that.
They can sell at a loss at 30-40 because 30-40 is their journey, not their destination.
At what point can the opportunity cost for leveling non-Grandmaster Crafting skills not be justified? Because that point exists.
The point where that time and effort is better spent farming or running caravans, etc. Or if you're a "pure" crafter, simply selling your best crafted Grandmaster gear because it sells for 50x more than your Master-level gear but only takes 20x the work.
(Or even just exploring or socializing or doing non-profitable things you enjoy.)
Speculative Answer to # 1) You may end up with residual inputs that you can't efficiently put to use from your Grandmaster Craft track. So maybe you branch out to a Master Craft that can take those leftover inputs and turn a quick profit. You've already got the inputs lying around, so the opportunity cost lies only in the leveling of that Craft to Master 30-40.
2) Similarly--but not as pressing of an issue--what is the utility of a Master-level Gathering or Processing skill at end-game?
They aren't useful for the TWO Grandmaster-level Crafting skills that you can have, at most. Even with an alts you still can't effectively craft Grandmaster "solo."
(Which is fine! I'm just asking why my Grandmaster Craft G would bother with Master of anything (except see Note A, below)
A typical Craft production takes Grandmaster Crafting Skill G requires 6 additional Grandmaster skill inputs:
Grandmaster Gatherable A --> Grandmaster Processing B
+
Grandmaster Gatherable C --> Grandmaster Processing D
+
Grandmaster Gatherable E --> Grandmaster Processing F
+
(some other low-level inputs which would justify having those skills at EXACTLY that level but not 1 level higher--even then, at that low level you'd likely be better off just buying them where feasible, because your time is not infinite)
The overall point being that having a Master-level Gathering/Processing does not feed into your Grandmaster Crafting.
Probable Answer for # 2) You will almost certainly need to be leveling Gathering and/or Processing A, B, C, D, E, or F along the way [unless you have a LOT of gold] so that you can actually TRAIN Grandmaster Craft Skill G. So those input skills will be useful for leveling your Grandmaster G if for no other reason.
So you will incidentally/unintentionally/involuntarily end up with some of these skills capped at Master 30-40 rather than by pure "choice" to level them to the cap.
Which is fine for Gathering and Processing (#2), but it wouldn't explain why you would want to voluntarily level a CRAFT skill knowing that it's going to cap at 40 (question #1).
And I'm not talking about leveling it to Journeyman or something as you are using it at low levels here and there to supplement your own gear yourself as you play the game. Because the lower the Craft skill the less effort it takes.
But at some point the payoff will not be there. At some point the crafted gear will be WORSE than looted gear in almost all cases, because your Craft skill is capped.
At some point wouldn't it just be logical to quit doing Crafts that we 100% KNOW we can't take to Grandmastery and do something else with our time?
Very Important Disclaimer A: I say "almost any" in the title because I don't include consumables or destructibles.
I can understand why someone at endgame would be satisfied with good-but-not-great, or great-but-not-elite potions, scrolls, caravans, etc. Or if not satisfied, unwilling or unable to pay max price for something that they need to buy repeatedly.
E.g. a 500 HP potion for 500 gp vs a 400 HP potion for 50 gp. And then imagine needing hundreds of them at that price point!
Much More Technical Disclaimer B: I'm assuming that Grandmaster will work exactly like Novice, Apprentice, and Journeyman; but we don't actually know.
1a) Let's say it takes 200 hours to level a Master level 30-40 to the cap. The market for that gear is for alts and new players. Is all that time and effort worth it for you personally? I'm sure that on paper it looks beneficial to the macro economy, but how does it benefit your own micro-economy, your personal risk/reward calculations when you could have applied those 200 hours to something else?
1b) Because even if you think you are going to do it for profit, the problem is that while you are capped at Master 30-40, you will be competing in the market with the people on the Grandmaster 40-50 track, who are selling their 30-40 gear that they don't want, that they only made because they need the crafting XP and enough gold to break even.
Of course, they would gladly TAKE more gold, but to achieve Grandmastery they don't actually NEED more than that.
They can sell at a loss at 30-40 because 30-40 is their journey, not their destination.
At what point can the opportunity cost for leveling non-Grandmaster Crafting skills not be justified? Because that point exists.
The point where that time and effort is better spent farming or running caravans, etc. Or if you're a "pure" crafter, simply selling your best crafted Grandmaster gear because it sells for 50x more than your Master-level gear but only takes 20x the work.
(Or even just exploring or socializing or doing non-profitable things you enjoy.)
Speculative Answer to # 1) You may end up with residual inputs that you can't efficiently put to use from your Grandmaster Craft track. So maybe you branch out to a Master Craft that can take those leftover inputs and turn a quick profit. You've already got the inputs lying around, so the opportunity cost lies only in the leveling of that Craft to Master 30-40.
2) Similarly--but not as pressing of an issue--what is the utility of a Master-level Gathering or Processing skill at end-game?
They aren't useful for the TWO Grandmaster-level Crafting skills that you can have, at most. Even with an alts you still can't effectively craft Grandmaster "solo."
(Which is fine! I'm just asking why my Grandmaster Craft G would bother with Master of anything (except see Note A, below)
A typical Craft production takes Grandmaster Crafting Skill G requires 6 additional Grandmaster skill inputs:
Grandmaster Gatherable A --> Grandmaster Processing B
+
Grandmaster Gatherable C --> Grandmaster Processing D
+
Grandmaster Gatherable E --> Grandmaster Processing F
+
(some other low-level inputs which would justify having those skills at EXACTLY that level but not 1 level higher--even then, at that low level you'd likely be better off just buying them where feasible, because your time is not infinite)
The overall point being that having a Master-level Gathering/Processing does not feed into your Grandmaster Crafting.
Probable Answer for # 2) You will almost certainly need to be leveling Gathering and/or Processing A, B, C, D, E, or F along the way [unless you have a LOT of gold] so that you can actually TRAIN Grandmaster Craft Skill G. So those input skills will be useful for leveling your Grandmaster G if for no other reason.
So you will incidentally/unintentionally/involuntarily end up with some of these skills capped at Master 30-40 rather than by pure "choice" to level them to the cap.
Which is fine for Gathering and Processing (#2), but it wouldn't explain why you would want to voluntarily level a CRAFT skill knowing that it's going to cap at 40 (question #1).
And I'm not talking about leveling it to Journeyman or something as you are using it at low levels here and there to supplement your own gear yourself as you play the game. Because the lower the Craft skill the less effort it takes.
But at some point the payoff will not be there. At some point the crafted gear will be WORSE than looted gear in almost all cases, because your Craft skill is capped.
At some point wouldn't it just be logical to quit doing Crafts that we 100% KNOW we can't take to Grandmastery and do something else with our time?
Very Important Disclaimer A: I say "almost any" in the title because I don't include consumables or destructibles.
I can understand why someone at endgame would be satisfied with good-but-not-great, or great-but-not-elite potions, scrolls, caravans, etc. Or if not satisfied, unwilling or unable to pay max price for something that they need to buy repeatedly.
E.g. a 500 HP potion for 500 gp vs a 400 HP potion for 50 gp. And then imagine needing hundreds of them at that price point!
Much More Technical Disclaimer B: I'm assuming that Grandmaster will work exactly like Novice, Apprentice, and Journeyman; but we don't actually know.
1
Comments
Needed gear stats should be in fairly continuous flux - even at Level 50 Adventurer.
Especially with gear not being soulbound, in the very long run there will be a lot of supply vs low demand for non-consumable non-GM crafted items. I don't know if there's really a fix for it though - in other MMOs it's the same thing where people are only interested in the top-tier items.
For that to be true, they would need to somehow be 'better' at the same Master level work, than you. And considerably so. We even know from games over the years 'what the gap needs to be'.
There are also different proposed systems in Ashes related to gear repairing and degradation that might tie into this. Simple example, what if you don't need Grandmaster Crafting to repair an item that only a Grandmaster can initially make?
This would actually lead to many 'useful' situations for both sides, where a Grandmaster can 'leave the repairs to their students/apprentices', and help smaller Guilds (or even large ones technically) by allowing them to not need a 'second' Grandmaster in some craft for 'insurance'.
The rest of the concerns seem to mainly apply to solo-ish players.
There are many ways to do this in serious MMOs though, in itemization terms. Ashes can join the ranks of MMOs with that level of itemization quite easily.
But why would a level 50 adventurer ever want level 30 or 40 gear?
The dynamism does not include us losing levels!
(Hopefully.)
And the answer is: Dont worry about this. The gear that the "Grand Master" will be making to level their profession, will be used as material for the Better equipment.
So if you are making some iron long sword at novice level, When you reach expert level, you will be using the iron long swords as material to make better gear.
You will always have demand for low profession items in the market. Because they will be needed as materials in the chain above
This way even new players that come into the game for example after 1 year of the AOC launch will still be part of the economy from day 1. Which wont force them to feel like they need to reach max level to experience the game