Basic attack combo interruption

Each weapon has a finisher and extended finisher with some basic attacks before them. This has a static sequence like:

Atk 1 - Atk 2 - Finisher - Extended Finisher

If you use an ability it disrupts this chain completely, like:

Atk 1 - Atk 2 - Ability - Atk 1 - Atk 2 - Finisher - Extended Finisher

Subjectively, I think it would be much better to have abilities not interrupt this sequence, like:

Atk 1 - Atk 2 - Ability - Finisher - Extended Finisher

I believe this would just straigh up improve the combat, both in terms of fluidity and in a skillful manner.

P.S.: Currently even if you just swap target in the middle of your basic attack combo, if you don't hit the next target in like 0.5s, the whole sequence resets. I think this should also increase to like 2-3 seconds.

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Comments

Caeryl

Oh, so weaving in instant-cast fireballs is actively punished. Well that doesn't feel great

Agreed that the timing window to continue a combo should be extended (and not interrupted by casts) to allow for more skill expression when swapping targets and utilizing abilities.

Ghostgg

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

Veeshan

I feel this actually would dumb down combat right now you choose wether or not a skill at this particular time is worth breaking your weapon combo or waiting for combo to finish before deploying the skill just my thought atleast. The current system rewards those able to weave auto attacks inbetween skill where ur system is just foolproof for anyone which takes some skill out of combat to a degree atleast imo

Caeryl

Veeshan wrote: »

The current system rewards those able to weave auto attacks inbetween skill where ur system is just foolproof for anyone which takes some skill out of combat to a degree atleast imo

The current system punishes weaving in spell casts and autos by resetting the weapon combos. It doesn't reward it

oneuproad

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

Weaving by the very definition in gaming means throwing basic attacks in between abilities, not the other way around.

Very easy example would be you using an ability just before your finisher to boost your stats, and then do the finishers, that may overlap into an another finisher combo or it just adds more damage to your sequence of weaving and ability rotation.

The current system is whats braindead and promotes ability spam into basic attacks in the down time. That is unless you believe basic attacks do more than abilities, which they objectively do not.

oneuproad

Veeshan wrote: »

I feel this actually would dumb down combat right now you choose wether or not a skill at this particular time is worth breaking your weapon combo or waiting for combo to finish before deploying the skill just my thought atleast. The current system rewards those able to weave auto attacks inbetween skill where ur system is just foolproof for anyone which takes some skill out of combat to a degree atleast imo

This is a non-factor example in terms of skill expression. You would break the combo regardless if the ability benefits you more at moment given (same for dodge roll, same for block), regardless if it breaks the weapon combo or not.

As I wrote above, the current system promotes ability spam into basic attacks.

And I have not even mentioned yet the debuffs, buffs the finishers/deadly procs can give. These just further increase the combo potential.

You are simply out of your mind saying this would dumb down combat.

Ghostgg

oneuproad wrote: »

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

Weaving by the very definition in gaming means throwing basic attacks in between abilities, not the other way around.

Very easy example would be you using an ability just before your finisher to boost your stats, and then do the finishers, that may overlap into an another finisher combo or it just adds more damage to your sequence of weaving and ability rotation.

The current system is whats braindead and promotes ability spam into basic attacks in the down time. That is unless you believe basic attacks do more than abilities, which they objectively do not.

First, weaving does not suggest the rate of interweaving skills nor the priority. You want a system where you press your skill and you are not punished for poor timing. The current system means you get the finisher off, then do a quick burst of skills (for fighter which I play, overpower into trip into maim) then basic attack to reset my overpower before using another skill. It also means someone interrupting your attack combo gets comparatively more value.

This is more punishing IMO because if I make a mistake and I use a skill that interrupts my combo then I have to redo the entire thing, adding a skill curve. In your example I would be punished less as it just means I'd have to do one extra attack.

I hear what you're saying for being able to do attack > ability > finisher > ability > extended finisher proc > ability to setup another type of combo. That is certainly skill expression, but saying the current system is braindead is just wrong. I think the skill expression in the current system is larger because it is more punishing and allows more counter play.

oneuproad

Ghostgg wrote: »

oneuproad wrote: »

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

Weaving by the very definition in gaming means throwing basic attacks in between abilities, not the other way around.

Very easy example would be you using an ability just before your finisher to boost your stats, and then do the finishers, that may overlap into an another finisher combo or it just adds more damage to your sequence of weaving and ability rotation.

The current system is whats braindead and promotes ability spam into basic attacks in the down time. That is unless you believe basic attacks do more than abilities, which they objectively do not.

First, weaving does not suggest the rate of interweaving skills nor the priority. You want a system where you press your skill and you are not punished for poor timing. The current system means you get the finisher off, then do a quick burst of skills (for fighter which I play, overpower into trip into maim) then basic attack to reset my overpower before using another skill. It also means someone interrupting your attack combo gets comparatively more value.

This is more punishing IMO because if I make a mistake and I use a skill that interrupts my combo then I have to redo the entire thing, adding a skill curve. In your example I would be punished less as it just means I'd have to do one extra attack.

I hear what you're saying for being able to do attack > ability > finisher > ability > extended finisher proc > ability to setup another type of combo. That is certainly skill expression, but saying the current system is braindead is just wrong. I think the skill expression in the current system is larger because it is more punishing and allows more counter play.

I have never once said that CC should not interrupt the weapon combo, I said your own abilities should not interrupt it.

I am sorry, but a system where there are more possibilities there are naturally more counterplays, and naturally more ways to bait a dodge roll for example out of players.

All I am saying is that your own abilities should not reset the weapon sequence, everything else like block, dodge roll, CC should. If we go down this path.

If abilities do not interrupt weapon sequence, it also means you knowing when the finisher comes from someone else has a meaning. Now it is just holding down basic attack.

Also, I do not even want to know what is your fighter's level. You are mentioning 3 abilities. My friend is level 17 fighter, and says it is literally useless to use basic attack outside of ability down time.

MilosAoC

I agree with this 100%. I had this suggestion years ago aswell when i first learnt of the weapon combo system

Caeryl

oneuproad wrote: »

Ghostgg wrote: »

oneuproad wrote: »

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

Weaving by the very definition in gaming means throwing basic attacks in between abilities, not the other way around.

Very easy example would be you using an ability just before your finisher to boost your stats, and then do the finishers, that may overlap into an another finisher combo or it just adds more damage to your sequence of weaving and ability rotation.

The current system is whats braindead and promotes ability spam into basic attacks in the down time. That is unless you believe basic attacks do more than abilities, which they objectively do not.

First, weaving does not suggest the rate of interweaving skills nor the priority. You want a system where you press your skill and you are not punished for poor timing. The current system means you get the finisher off, then do a quick burst of skills (for fighter which I play, overpower into trip into maim) then basic attack to reset my overpower before using another skill. It also means someone interrupting your attack combo gets comparatively more value.

This is more punishing IMO because if I make a mistake and I use a skill that interrupts my combo then I have to redo the entire thing, adding a skill curve. In your example I would be punished less as it just means I'd have to do one extra attack.

I hear what you're saying for being able to do attack > ability > finisher > ability > extended finisher proc > ability to setup another type of combo. That is certainly skill expression, but saying the current system is braindead is just wrong. I think the skill expression in the current system is larger because it is more punishing and allows more counter play.

I have never once said that CC should not interrupt the weapon combo, I said your own abilities should not interrupt it.

I am sorry, but a system where there are more possibilities there are naturally more counterplays, and naturally more ways to bait a dodge roll for example out of players.

All I am saying is that your own abilities should not reset the weapon sequence, everything else like block, dodge roll, CC should. If we go down this path.

If abilities do not interrupt weapon sequence, it also means you knowing when the finisher comes from someone else has a meaning. Now it is just holding down basic attack.

Also, I do not even want to know what is your fighter's level. You are mentioning 3 abilities. My friend is level 17 fighter, and says it is literally useless to use basic attack outside of ability down time.

Even under level 10, you only auto when you have nothing up or to recoup some mana. The damage is only significant on the finishers and extended finishers, but two wet noodle autos to reach either when I have spells available is just a waste of time.

oneuproad

Sorry I just read this again after sleeping.

It was you who called brain dead my suggestion, but then also aggreing it has skill expression. Literally just type "brain" into CTRL+F search.

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

The current system means you get the finisher off, then do a quick burst of skills (for fighter which I play, overpower into trip into maim) then basic attack to reset my overpower before using another skill. It also means someone interrupting your attack combo gets comparatively more value.

I am fine with disagreeing respectfully. First of all, you wrote almost the same combo as me, but you probably had a "You vs mob" scenario lol. In what world do you believe, you are going to be able to walk up to a player do a weapon combo rotation then do your abilities then continue to weapon attack, very unlikely especially as a melee. This does not have high punishment, this is unrealistic. THIS IS THE EXACT SCENARIO WHERE YOU JUST ABILITY SPAM WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAIN, what I have in quote above.

While my thinking was you setup your finisher, so you gap close into CC into double basic attack into CC again into buff into finisher (further buffing) into ability burst. Now this is a rather brainstorm as of now, as I do not know if there is going to be a.) an universal CC break ability, b.) if block is going to avoid CC, c.) how long they last and how many CCs fighter would have later on, d.) how much attack speed rating can we buckle together as the game progresses, e.) can I pre-buff my attack speed after 1st CC?, f.) can I debuff the enemies evasion/pdef before I get to my finisher burst? I do not know fighter's skill kit, maybe they already have some of these examples?

This is the exact OPPOSITE of what I have in quote above. If you think this is a system with no brain to use and a downgrade compared to what we have now in terms of skill expression. Then a.) you need a mental check, b.) you have never played a MMORPG with a weaving system in it, and I mean a proper one where you need to press your basic attack, not just wait for auto-attack due to global cooldown or some shiet. (Aion, ESO for example)

Ghostgg wrote: »

First, weaving does not suggest the rate of interweaving skills nor the priority. You want a system where you press your skill and you are not punished for poor timing.

I hear what you're saying for being able to do attack > ability > finisher > ability > extended finisher proc > ability to setup another type of combo. That is certainly skill expression, but saying the current system is braindead is just wrong. I think the skill expression in the current system is larger because it is more punishing and allows more counter play.

Not even going to.

grm125

if you wish to active block every boss swing (seems like theyre 2.0 swing timer), you can never finish a weapon combo and proc the mana regen, weapon finisher debuffs and the cleric bless weapon boon while playing tank
something to consider

Ghostgg

oneuproad wrote: »

Sorry I just read this again after sleeping.

It was you who called brain dead my suggestion, but then also aggreing it has skill expression. Literally just type "brain" into CTRL+F search.

Ghostgg wrote: »

How does this improve skillful expression? This literally makes it so you just press your skills on cd without using your brain. I much prefer the combo system where you weave your spells/abilities at the right time.

The current system means you get the finisher off, then do a quick burst of skills (for fighter which I play, overpower into trip into maim) then basic attack to reset my overpower before using another skill. It also means someone interrupting your attack combo gets comparatively more value.

I am fine with disagreeing respectfully. First of all, you wrote almost the same combo as me, but you probably had a "You vs mob" scenario lol. In what world do you believe, you are going to be able to walk up to a player do a weapon combo rotation then do your abilities then continue to weapon attack, very unlikely especially as a melee. This does not have high punishment, this is unrealistic. THIS IS THE EXACT SCENARIO WHERE YOU JUST ABILITY SPAM WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAIN, what I have in quote above.

While my thinking was you setup your finisher, so you gap close into CC into double basic attack into CC again into buff into finisher (further buffing) into ability burst. Now this is a rather brainstorm as of now, as I do not know if there is going to be a.) an universal CC break ability, b.) if block is going to avoid CC, c.) how long they last and how many CCs fighter would have later on, d.) how much attack speed rating can we buckle together as the game progresses, e.) can I pre-buff my attack speed after 1st CC?, f.) can I debuff the enemies evasion/pdef before I get to my finisher burst? I do not know fighter's skill kit, maybe they already have some of these examples?

This is the exact OPPOSITE of what I have in quote above. If you think this is a system with no brain to use and a downgrade compared to what we have now in terms of skill expression. Then a.) you need a mental check, b.) you have never played a MMORPG with a weaving system in it, and I mean a proper one where you need to press your basic attack, not just wait for auto-attack due to global cooldown or some shiet. (Aion, ESO for example)

Ghostgg wrote: »

First, weaving does not suggest the rate of interweaving skills nor the priority. You want a system where you press your skill and you are not punished for poor timing.

I hear what you're saying for being able to do attack > ability > finisher > ability > extended finisher proc > ability to setup another type of combo. That is certainly skill expression, but saying the current system is braindead is just wrong. I think the skill expression in the current system is larger because it is more punishing and allows more counter play.

Not even going to.

I think you're wrong and what you propose is a more forgiving, easier implementation. CC exists so of course you can do extended rotations even in pvp, especially in a group v group context, or do you think every player in the enemy group is going to use all of there escapes on only you? I've played plenty of large scale, small scale, and even 1v1 games where extended uptime is possible.

I can point out the merits of your post while disagreeing without contradicting myself. I specifically pointed out that I saw where you were coming from because it was more clear the second post, but overall I still disagree that your proposed change is more deep. It really isn't that complicated.

Lastly before I likely start ignoring you the last point about trying to quote what weaving is is a meme. Saying things like get a "mental check" and typing in full caps makes you sound like a dumbass.

It's not worth getting upset about. We disagree and that's that. I've posted my counterpoint in this thread which is all I care about.

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