An argument for "i-frames"

Overall I am a big fan of the direction the combat is going, I enjoy the fast paced decisions that need to be made and the amount of skill expression that a robust kit of abilities allows for the player. The one thing that left me wanting more was dodging (and to a certain extent blocking), it just always felt lackluster and I feel like there can be so much potential if dodging had a bigger roll to fill. This is where the idea of including "i-frames" warrants inclusion or at least serious discussion. Now don't get me wrong, simply implementing "i-frames" could have massive implications for an MMO of this scale, but I think there is definitely a balance that can be struck where dodging has that same level of skill expression that various other games are able to achieve without it breaking Ashes of Creation's combat system.

My off the cuff ideas for how this balance could be struck would be to have dodges have either a smaller amount of i-frames or a buffer zone where on either side of the few i-frames you get a % damage mitigation. This style of having a very small window of actual immunity with the rest of the animation being % mitigation would help prevent mass abuse of the mechanic while allowing for a higher skill ceiling. Having a greater % mitigation the closer you are to a "perfect" dodge would also help encourage using this mechanic well. I think if you could get a raid of people to all perfectly dodge to be immune from a certain attack then that should be encouraged as a high level strategy, but the risk would be even higher since the immunity window would be so small - or as some might say, risk vs reward. To further prevent abuse you could also make certain AOE attacks, or even certain skills/abilities un-dodgeable (maybe you still get the % mitigation but not the immunity).

Now the main way to prevent combat from solely revolving around who can dodge better would be the cost of dodging, and what you give up in doing so. As it currently stands (unless I am missing something), dodging costs 50 stamina which out of a max amount of 100 stamina is a very steep cost, this cost is accentuated by slow stamina recovery rate. Having this sort of steep cost is totally fine, especially with a low stamina recovery rate as this would prevent the combat system from being just a dodge fest. I think it is totally reasonably to get 1-3 dodges per combat depending on the length of the encounter as this again puts the agency back in the hands of the player as to how they decide to use said stamina. Do they try to dodge the CC, or the big finisher? If your stamina doesn't regen absurdly quick then you might only be able to dodge one attack, which could turn the fight in your favor but does not totally over run all the other combat considerations. In PVE scenarios, having i-frames in this manner would again raise the possible skill ceiling without totally overpowering all the other mechanics.

There is definitely more to consider for stamina if these sort of dodging mechanics are introduced, ie what effect does it have for tanking, does it make more sense to block or dodge, how does it impact sprinting or parrying etc. but I believe that i-frames done in this manner elevate all of it and add another layer to player agency in combat both in PVP and PVE scenarios.

What do you think? Can i-frames ever be done in a way that wouldn't fundamentally change Ashes of Creation's combat?

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Comments

Azherae

I'm reasonably sure this is coming, it was talked about years ago as an option, we've seen some animations that definitely indicated some potential for it over the years (less of it lately) and simple options for it would allow for abilities/concepts that don't require movement.

The question is if it suits what most of the core audience expect from this game. I like it, but the game that I am the 'core audience' for already has this. Is it worth adding to Ashes, a game about precise range positioning and a heavy emphasis on free movement, but where projectiles home in (and might not be displaying their 'real' position to the player preparing to use the iframe option, as a result)?

I'd say no, but for clarity, I don't mind if dodging grants huge amounts of mitigation, all the way up to basically 100%. The thing I'm concerned about is that iframes are usually 'this attack missed and everything associated with it also missed', which skews the gameplay options in the design they've described to us, a lot more than 'you took minimal/no damage'.

So if you're not referring to the type that functionally 'evade' everything, then yeah, I think we'll already get that.

Uncommon Sense

In a massive PVP game i-frames are a risk to balance and meta. with TTK and turtleing issues.

I understand why people are trying to impose more single player game mechanics as that feels familiar.

But 100% damage mitigation on tap is not healthy for an MMO.

Fearrior

To both of your comments, I think that is why there needs to be a significant cost to using it. If you can get 100% damage mitigation for only a few frames but it costs a large chunk of your stamina that you dont get back very quickly then there is a great risk in using it and failing but a great reward in succeeding. Especially if stamina usage has a major role to play in various other skills and abilities, then losing out on that stamina would close some other options off (like blocking, or parrying, or sprinting).

I think there could be an argument for why risk implementing something like this when it has the potential to be very broken and might only add a small benefit, but idk I feel like having it in as an ability that takes a lot of skill to use properly would help make the action combat side of the hybrid system feel much more impactful.

Spif

There's ESO, with stamina used for sprinting, blocking and dodging (with i-frames). Having enjoyed that game for years after launch, I can say that I did not like their implementation of dodge immunity and projectiles. It was too permissive, and dodging was essentially a way to avoid a very high percentage of hard hits. Basically if you were dodging at any time when the ability launched, or when you got hit, you got immunity. When you got hit was determined on the target's side, so it was easy to pull off a clutch dodge.

In AoC it feels bad that mob projectiles do a u-turn and hit me anyway after I dodge. But as others have said, it may be coming. There's even a stamina skill that refunds stamina if you dodge an attack

Darsh13

Spif wrote: »

There's ESO, with stamina used for sprinting, blocking and dodging (with i-frames). Having enjoyed that game for years after launch, I can say that I did not like their implementation of dodge immunity and projectiles. It was too permissive, and dodging was essentially a way to avoid a very high percentage of hard hits. Basically if you were dodging at any time when the ability launched, or when you got hit, you got immunity. When you got hit was determined on the target's side, so it was easy to pull off a clutch dodge.

In AoC it feels bad that mob projectiles do a u-turn and hit me anyway after I dodge. But as others have said, it may be coming. There's even a stamina skill that refunds stamina if you dodge an attack

Comparing to ESO, keep in mind that there's a ton of mods in ESO. Some of which will actually let you know when to dodge to prevent getting hit in PvP. This makes dodging even stronger. Thankfully, AoC will not be supporting mods.

bloodprophet

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Active_dodging

Was talked about a while back. They want to use more telegraph with move vs marks on the ground.
I like this approach as it leads to people paying attention to what is happening vs mark says move.

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