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For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Economic Nodes and Buy Orders
Knotti
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Economic Node Auction Houses should run on a 24 Hour cycle - opening at 12:00pm and closing at 11:45am. Once it opens anyone that has access to interact with the AH can create a Buy Order for any item/size/price. When the AH closes at 11:45am all Buy Orders go into a dormant state with the option of renewal by paying a discounted fee or cancelling for a higher fee. After 3 days of dormancy you are charged the cancellation fee automatically and to interact with the AH again you will need to pay the fee... or go to war. This will create a "peak time" daily for anyone looking to trade and possibly create more social trade than automated trade by reducing the amount of Buy Orders by way of expense of use and proximity to other players. Buy Orders will mostly be used to collect large amounts of goods or very rare items.
Auctions can be created for a maximum of 3 days before renewal or cancellation is required. Once an auction is dormant for 3 days the item goes on the auction house for 1 hr at opening (12pm) starting at a bid of 1 copper without buyout with the proceeds or left over item going to the guild bank - potential bit of market action for those who are diligent.
Brokers
Members of the Economic Node can bid to obtain the limited position of Broker. In the Auction House interface Brokers are listed with the ability to connect with them by sending a request or they might contact you through messaging if they are inclined. Once accepted and connected to a Broker it allows access to an interface with space for them to list potential orders to be accepted or declined at the player's leisure. What Brokers can do in your name - for a flat fee or percentage of course.
- Renew Buy Order
- Cancel Order
- Relist Item collected by Order as Auction
- Renew Auction
- Cancel Auction
- Use Cash collected to create Buy Order
Players must accept the use of Brokerage and all actions/terms must be accepted by the Player for the Broker to proceed. The Brokerage Interface could be very similar to a trade window. The Broker can list auctions and orders for the player to accept or decline. Once the player is able to interact with the market again they can collect the amount of goods or cash - minus all the brokerage fees as this is when the Broker is paid the sum of fees. If you end up adding up a bunch of Brokerage fees by say renewing a buy order repeatedly; that debt will have to be paid the next time you interact with the market... or go to war. Or you may have a hard time getting in contact with your Broker as they might have other preferred clients. You also could manage your own orders and save your pennies for next election because the position would be extremely lucrative but also potentially taxing as it could be very demanding.
Other Nodes could hold a position with other abilities
Divine - Players amongst the highest favor have the ability to bless groups of citizens with a 24 hr health buff from a distance.
Military - Players who have fought for the highest ranks have the ability to rally groups of citizens with a 24 hr strength buff from a distance.
Scientific - Players who have been voted to the highest positions have the ability to grant citizens 24 hr extra bag space from a distance.
Auctions can be created for a maximum of 3 days before renewal or cancellation is required. Once an auction is dormant for 3 days the item goes on the auction house for 1 hr at opening (12pm) starting at a bid of 1 copper without buyout with the proceeds or left over item going to the guild bank - potential bit of market action for those who are diligent.
Brokers
Members of the Economic Node can bid to obtain the limited position of Broker. In the Auction House interface Brokers are listed with the ability to connect with them by sending a request or they might contact you through messaging if they are inclined. Once accepted and connected to a Broker it allows access to an interface with space for them to list potential orders to be accepted or declined at the player's leisure. What Brokers can do in your name - for a flat fee or percentage of course.
- Renew Buy Order
- Cancel Order
- Relist Item collected by Order as Auction
- Renew Auction
- Cancel Auction
- Use Cash collected to create Buy Order
Players must accept the use of Brokerage and all actions/terms must be accepted by the Player for the Broker to proceed. The Brokerage Interface could be very similar to a trade window. The Broker can list auctions and orders for the player to accept or decline. Once the player is able to interact with the market again they can collect the amount of goods or cash - minus all the brokerage fees as this is when the Broker is paid the sum of fees. If you end up adding up a bunch of Brokerage fees by say renewing a buy order repeatedly; that debt will have to be paid the next time you interact with the market... or go to war. Or you may have a hard time getting in contact with your Broker as they might have other preferred clients. You also could manage your own orders and save your pennies for next election because the position would be extremely lucrative but also potentially taxing as it could be very demanding.
Other Nodes could hold a position with other abilities
Divine - Players amongst the highest favor have the ability to bless groups of citizens with a 24 hr health buff from a distance.
Military - Players who have fought for the highest ranks have the ability to rally groups of citizens with a 24 hr strength buff from a distance.
Scientific - Players who have been voted to the highest positions have the ability to grant citizens 24 hr extra bag space from a distance.
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Comments
A buy order should have a small broker fee, and it should remain active for at least 90 days, possibly up to 180 days. If you want to modify the order and renew it with a different price, you should pay an even smaller relist fee and renew the expiry date for another 90 days. That's it, simple, straightforward, and not a hassle.
What trouble?
And regardless of genre, for a healthy Economy, Buy Orders are mandatory.
By the way, feudal taxes from say, 1100AD in England, were essentially Buy Orders. The King needs X amount of Barley from Bob and Y amount of Iron from Ivan.
Those would also be close to Mayoral Commisions... which we could also call Buy Orders.
Players shouldn't need a college degree in finance or mathematics to navigate the Auction House.
As someone who holds a degree in a STEM field and understands the concept of Buy Orders, I'm not interested in a multi-layered set of rules ... when I simply want to relax with a video game by buying/selling commodities directly.
Buy Orders will work on a smaller scale because of the limited gathering available AND the time-gated processing.
If you are your guilds weaponssmith, and you need 40 new swords, then putting out Buy Orders in game is more immersive and safe (than say Discord).
What kind of degree is needed to facilitate that?
Now, prediction and market manipulation- that's where the math would come in.
The point of a market of any type in an MMORPG is to facilitate trade between players.
Any barrier to players trading should not exist within that in game market, with the exception of a basic market charge.
This entire suggestion is just a list of barriers.
All the fees would be set by the Brokers themselves and the Mayor of the Auction House. Different between citizens of the node and each other node; they would be competitive and most likely small amounts... or go to war.
These people would have the power to decide whether or not Bob or Doug get the Sword of a Thousand Raspberry's but a good Broker would hopefully know what's good for the Node. They would most likely spend a lot of time standing at the market which for some is epic gameplay on it's own, but for others it's a lucrative position within an economic node. Helping keep the economy moving within the area.
Player-Trading-Player would be free of any constraint other than inventory space so any barrier can be bypassed by that. Perhaps the Mayor could set the time of the 24 hr cycle to be most effective for his guild/region. These people chose to live in an Economic Node there should be economic advantages and positions.
Really no.
If someone puts a sword up for sale that both Doug and Bob want, the only people that should decide who gets it are the seller, Doug and Bob. If the seller puts it up for a flat price, then it is the first to purchase it that gets it. If it is up for an auction, then it is who bids highest.
There should be no other factors.
The more obfuscation you put in front of a system, the fewer players that are comfortable interacting with that system.
Since there is literally no reason at all to not just have the same basic marketplace and/or auction that every other MMORPG ever has proven works perfectly for the task at hand, there is no baseline reason to add all of this bloat to the game.
The point of an economic node isn't to stifle trade in nearby nodes - which is the end result of what you have proposed.
If someone puts up the Sword of a Thousand Raspberry's for auction the only person that really decides who buys it is the person at the location with the cash. Even if this system isn't in place there are going to be people playing the Trader role and scooping up Highlander's Chain Skirt of the Goat as soon as it hits the market and selling it to someone that really wants it. If he already knows who's interested it can be moved more efficiently. Perhaps orders made to the Broker for the same item have to be filled chronologically. This would aid the market movement rather than stifle. You know what makes games fun? Systems.
You can also manage your own orders and not pay higher fees the same as any other AH in any other game; just with time constraints that will also keep things moving quickly. But time is money, friend.
It can't be both.
Is the Sword of a Thousand Raspberry's up for auction? Is it a Buyout or a Bid? Who wants it the guy currently checking the market or the Broker for the person that wants it. Two people bidding on an item would be competition which is the very nature of an auction house.
No dev should ever create hurdle with the intention of preventing people from dominating the market, the possibility of dominating the market for an item or two should always be there. This also let people play as merchants as they wish, you should never create extra problems for the player who want to try this career. There should be a fee tor creating the market order and then fee for price updates, if the player keeps updating the prices non-stop he will just burn all his gold for no reason and have a loss.
Dominating the market is almost impossible in a game, let the players try, in EVE there was time when I had 50% of all items of a certain in the entire game, my dominance lasted for a month only and I didn't have the energy to keep pushing it.
More thought out design of other Node abilities.
Divine - Priests - have the ability to Create a Light Well that when interacted with by citizens it gives a buff that improves resource restoration.
Military - Knights - Have the ability to drop and move War Banners that buff offensive stats of citizens within a large area.
Scientific - Project Manager - Have the ability to create consumable extra bag space slots from cheap resources and supply them to citizens.
Economic - Broker - Ability to handle Auction Order Assets that have been placed on Local Auction House by citizens.
These players would be in constant demand between groups with renewing and moving these portable buffs; possibly supplying the groups with consumables and combat resources; being Leaders and helping with the logistics of the goals of the Node. Also giving some power to the people that choose to compete to be in the top positions of political hierarchy in the Node.
Right, so then this statement; is factually incorrect.
The people you are talking about here do not in fact have the powert to decide whether or not Bob or Doug get the sword.
The other thing that really makes your entire notion not workable for Ashes is that not all "Sword of a Thousand Raspberry's" will be the same.
You may make one and favor dexterity, while I may make one and favor constitution. Since items do not have set stats in the game, the notion of putting in a purchase order for a given item just doesn't work.
On the other hand, the notion of a consignment system to hire a crafter to make that item with the stats that you want - that is a valid system, and is one that is planned for Ashes.
Again, just no to the whole thing. There is nothing good it will do, there are negatives it will have, it is intended to stop an action that should be possible, and even then it is ineffective at that task that it is intended to do - do you need any more reason?
Just no.
They would absolutely have the power to decide which Buy Order they would fill if two people were looking for the same weapon with secondary stats. If you want to dry out what I've said and hit me with technicalities that's fun.
A Broker would be working for citizens to help them obtain the best gear that comes into the market; essentially funneling gear to the people that will pay the premium. That doesn't mean Marty the Bard can't bid to buy his own Sword of a Thousand Dried Raspberry's (kinda sounds like wine); he'll just have competition and he'll have to outbid the Buy Order floats left to the Brokers.
- A Brokers float is broken into each individual client and cannot be combined.
So it's back to not being a case of the buyers deciding.
You think I keep bringing up technicalities, but these are actually just reasons why this system isn't a good fit for Ashes.
Keep in mind as well, the games marketplace isn't where that top end rare gear that you are talking about will be found. That gear will require specific drops from top end mobs (read; raid encounters). Crafters aren't likely to get a hold of these items to just craft and sell to some random bidder. Most guilds that get these items won't allow them to leave the guild.
If a crafter is needed from out of guild to craft one of these top end items, the game has an escrow system to take up that role. The notion that crafters will just have the components to make these top end items and sell to whom ever they want is simply not aligned with this game.
Perhaps you could also keep in mind that your notion of a caravan passing through a node wanting to offload quickly is also not a viable situation. Caravans need to unload all of their goods in to the nodes warehouse, and this process is said to take several actual days (real days, not in game days).
So the entire point you made about a caravan wanting a quick turnover is just not a valid point.
All of the points you have made about "going to war with the node" are also not valid points. Players can't declare war, and in fact the bulk of players wanting to use the market in any given node literally can't go to war against that node.
The notion of all purchase orders only lasting until 11:45 in a game where the bulk of people are playing only a few hours before that is also just a bad idea. It would need to be moved to 6am at the very least - just another way this whole thing is ill-considered.
WHat you have not done at all is provide any reason as to why this is a benefit to the game as opposed to a detriment. There are many ways people - including myself - have pointed out that this system has no benefits, as well as us pointing out that the goals of this system are largely already accomplished via other systems.
So again, unless you can give a reason as to why the game would be better with this than literalyl just not having it at all, still a hard no.
I never said The Sword of a Thousand Raspberry's was the best item. It could be any item. It could be the Pointless Dagger of a Thousand Grains of Salt; if it's on the Auction House anyone that interacts with the AH can make a Bid or Buyout the item. So the buyers absolutely decide who buys it, just some of them will be Brokers for others. Yes the best gear will be traded amongst players in other ways, I agree. But as materials and gear hit the market the Guild Broker (yes maybe that's it; Guild Broker) will be able to fill orders made by his citizens - as an economic advantage considering the node type they are a part of. They will have to leave a Buy Order (a sum of gold) or item at the AH before leaving for the Guild Broker to handle, and pick it up at a later time. So if a caravan was offloaded and the items hit the market while your raid team was out doing bad dog shit the Broker could take care of the trading for the guild. Which would happen anyway, but this is giving that person a position and creates a system for it. Streamlining it from someone sitting at the AH with guild money to buy items for people and trading from his inventory. Instead use the Brokerage system.
It's great how language can be so specific if you read correctly, isn't it.
They already have an advantage.
All I'm doing is trying to hash out a system I personally think would be good for the game. Can we move on from your petty and baseless arguments? I shouldn't have to say that.
Yes they have an advantage... good. Be kinda cool if they used some Economic systems such as a Brokerage.
Cool.
Before you do that, you need to know what systems the game already has, and identify reasons for this system existing. Suggesting a second system in order to perform a function that is already covered is pointless, as is suggesting a layer over top of existing systems that isn't needed.
Obviously you are welcome to say what you want, but if you wish to avoid comments like have been in this thread, the above is highly recommended.
Nobody can escape your pettiness, got it.
It's a very valuable system if you understand how a Brokerage works; which is lacking in your arguments.
And now we’re back to my point. Good.
How many players are going to want to understand how it works … when all they want to do is buy/sell directly?
There will be people at Markets representing Guilds already. Using Guild gold funneled to them to buy items and equipment to funnel to players within their guild. There's going to a bit of that going on in all systems regarding gear. With this system that person has the ability to interact with other citizens through the Brokerage Interface. The Broker can set up a Buy or Auction of an item with price and the player will be pinged on their own side of the Interface with an outline of the trade and whether it be a renewal with an accept/ decline or modify option. While the Broker can act for the client from a distance the actual transaction of items/cash will happen within the storage of the Brokerage; saving the Broker from using their own inventory space to distribute items. Without the system the distribution would be done without the extra storage space leaving it to only inventories and player trading making it more cumbersome and less streamlined. Which is what Guilds outside of an Economic Node will have to do - Giving benefits to being the Eco Node.
As I've said above in the thread - each individual Broker/Client order is it's own float and cannot combine with others; so it's not like these guys are going to be made of money - they will just be handling it. These Brokers will have a tough job handling several different items and needs at the same time, but they can make a couple bones doing it. This is part of an economic node after all and there should be ways to make money within the node structure.
Bad idea, let all users pick how long their buy or sell orders last (with ganularity of minimum of 6 hours) with a fee that is proportional to the alotted time and is in addition to the percentage that the Auction house takes upon a completed sale. Extensions can be purchased at any time.
All the stuff about Brokers is needless and tedious design bloat of the worst kind created by this artificial time, thus remove both.
You level up this career path by conducting many trades and it gives you the privlage of pre-paying at a large bulk discount a lot of Auction house interactions. It might also involve the 'node currency' being able to substitute auction house fees. In any case your lower fees give a comparative advantage in trading but only if you actually do a LOT of trading so not something every player would benifit from. No other powers or privlages are needed in my opinion.
I deal with brokers of different types on a weekly basis.
None of them have ever done anything of value, all they do is waste my teams time and take their cut. We would be better off if they didn't exist in the real world, just as we would in game.