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Discussion on Universal Skills and Stamina Through the Lens of Tanks

SonicXplosionSonicXplosion Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited November 7 in Tank Archetype
I do not like Universal Skills or Stamina.

I think that Blocking and Dodging are core parts of Archetype identities, and adding these Universal Skills only serves to dilute those Archetypes.

Should Healing be a universal skill? No, there will be augments to provide that utility.

In my opinion, Blocking and Dodging are the same. If you want Blocking, pick Tank augments.

I think currently, the addition of Blocking and Dodging as Universal Skills has specifically damaged the Tank Archetype.

Side Note: I do not like that Dodging is a roll. I think it looks silly, and the horizontal movement is very bad for Tanks, causing mobs to be dragged around, or accidentally dodging into the aggro of more mobs.

I would like to hear other peoples thoughts on Stamina and the Universal Skills as a whole, especially through the lens of Tanks.
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Comments

  • ImnotkioImnotkio Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 7
    Initially, I wasn't a fan of the idea, but seeing the implementation I do believe it has potential.

    I don't mind everyone being able to block, since shields are class-agnostic. But as you can see very few archetypes are using shields and their effectiveness at blocking with weapons is ridiculous.

    Dodging and blocking are not the same. Dodging is a mobility skill. Dodging is tied to evasion while blocking is tied to block rating or smth. It's like saying rogues can't have evasion because they are stealing the tank's mechanics of mitigating damage.

    Dodging is a roll because it's a mobility tool, it's supposed to make you travel and should not be used by tanks to avoid regular damage (aside from moving away from mechanics).

    Now, I believe tanks could have more things in their class kits to be more effective with shields. I also believe dodging being tied to evasion should be a high-cost spec, not a given.

    I also think either holding the block button should deplete stamina slowly even if not taking damage, OR you should be rewarded for timing your blocks. I think it's bad when tank gameplay revolves around holding a button and waiting for damage to hit it


  • TryolTryol Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 7
    Dodging
    SonicXplosion wrote: »
    I think that Blocking and Dodging are core parts of Archetype identities, and adding these Universal Skills only serves to dilute those Archetypes.
    I think dodging should be available for everyone in a very basic form because it gives Intrepid one more mechanic they can design encounters around. There should definitely be archetype-specific talent points, e.g mage could have teleport dodging, rogue could have dash dodging with charges, etc. This way it doesn't take as much away from the archetypes as they will have their own flavors of it.

    Blocking
    As for blocking, I don't think it should necessarily be archetype agnostic, but I don't have a strong opinion on this. At the very least though, it's obvious that different archetypes should block with different efficiency with Tank being at the best and Mage the worst at it.

    Sprinting
    I don't think this is good enough of a mechanic to be an archetype-agnostic. Instead it should be used to deepen archetype fantasies where it fits. I can see the Rogue, Ranger and Fighter for example each having their own versions of sprints, for example, but I wouldn't give it to other archetypes. It's not like they don't have other movement skills.

    Stamina
    By far my biggest issue with this entire system is STAMINA. I think it's bad and should be just straight up removed.
    Why? Because we already have cooldowns and charges to implement Blocking, Dodging and Sprinting. Paying attention to a new, quickly moving resource bar across all archetypes takes too much attention away from the actual important parts of combat. It's a not ergonomic, it's an inconvenience.

    Not only that, but by interconnecting Blocking, Dodging and Sprinting with 1 resource it heavily limits their individual design and makes the universal system as a whole too rigid. I don't these 3 mechanics will ever reach their true potential as long as they have the stamina resource tying them together and holding them back.

    TLDR / Summary of what I'd change
    - Dodging: Give everyone a base dodge, but also add archetype-specific skill points and flavors.
    - Sprinting: Should be only available for a few archetypes, and unique for each. (Rogue/Ranger/Fighter.)
    - Blocking: Archetypes should have different efficiency with it. (E.g. Tank > Mage.)
    - Stamina: Remove the Stamina resource, use cooldowns and charges to govern the 3 mechanics.
  • SonicXplosionSonicXplosion Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Imnotkio wrote: »
    Dodging is a roll because it's a mobility tool, it's supposed to make you travel and it's not meant to be used by tanks.

    Doesnt that point towards Universal Skills not really being Universal?

    I haven't even seen other Archetypes using Blocking (hell, even Tanks don't). But as you're saying, if these Universal Skills are only going to appeal to certain Archetypes, and be ignored by others, then they might as well just belong to those Archetypes so they can be crafted with more finesse, rather than have to be diluted in power and functionality so that everyone can have access to them.

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  • NyceGamingNyceGaming Member, Alpha Two
    The issue isn’t about active dodge or active block. The correct take is to enhance the tank’s use of active block. No one should have access to active block AS EFFECTIVELY as the tank. Ex: add this via a passive or as benefit to the grit skill or make it so the higher courage you have, the more block mitigation you have. We should aim to give archetypes unique utility in universal skills, not simply take it away cause YOU don’t like it in games you play/played. How about rogue has drastically increased base sprint movement speed. Ranger dodge rolls cost 30. Tank block cost less stam or has more mitigation . Fighter gets a damage bonus post block? Idk. Also currently the universal skill tree is vertical and bland with little sacrifice. Hope to see changes later.
    In short, as a fellow tank main, we should get more auto block chance, block mitigation, or something.
  • ImnotkioImnotkio Member, Alpha Two
    SonicXplosion wrote: »

    Doesn't that point towards Universal Skills not really being Universal?

    I haven't even seen other Archetypes using Blocking (hell, even Tanks don't). But as you're saying, if these Universal Skills are only going to appeal to certain Archetypes, and be ignored by others, then they might as well just belong to those Archetypes so they can be crafted with more finesse, rather than have to be diluted in power and functionality so that everyone can have access to them.

    Well not really, no. A tank will use dodge to get out of mechanics, or close gaps, but not with the same purpose as the block skill is what I meant to say.

    You can still be a cleric, using block rating gear, and effectively block. It's just probably not gonna be meta. It's like all weapons, you can be a tank using a wand, but it's probably not gonna be as effective as a mage using a wand.

    They definitely could have made all universal skills and weapons class-locked instead, that is certainly a design direction that works. But they are going more for the freedom of choice design. The proper way to implement the design is to make everything available and usable by everyone while still maintaining certain advantages for certain scenarios.
  • SonicXplosionSonicXplosion Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    NyceGaming wrote: »
    The issue isn’t about active dodge or active block. The correct take is to enhance the tank’s use of active block. No one should have access to active block AS EFFECTIVELY as the tank. Ex: add this via a passive or as benefit to the grit skill or make it so the higher courage you have, the more block mitigation you have. We should aim to give archetypes unique utility in universal skills, not simply take it away cause YOU don’t like it in games you play/played. How about rogue has drastically increased base sprint movement speed. Ranger dodge rolls cost 30. Tank block cost less stam or has more mitigation . Fighter gets a damage bonus post block? Idk. Also currently the universal skill tree is vertical and bland with little sacrifice. Hope to see changes later.
    In short, as a fellow tank main, we should get more auto block chance, block mitigation, or something.

    Do you not think that the devs are limited in the functionality they can have for blocking by it being a universal skill?

    "We should aim to give archetypes unique utility in universal skills"
    That doesnt sound very universal.

    "How about rogue has drastically increased base sprint movement speed. Ranger dodge rolls cost 30. Tank block cost less stam or has more mitigation . Fighter gets a damage bonus post block?"

    Those are very bland ways to incorporate things that should already belong to those archetypes, back into them. Basically neutering each classes identity for a sense of homogenization.
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