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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Initial thoughts on the corruption system from an experienced PVPer
vol
Member, Alpha Two
Hello devs and anyone else reading.
I lead a hardcore pvp guild in Aion for the better part of a decade, plan to do so again in Ashes, and focus on pvp in every game I play. Here's my thoughts on flagging;
There are often many reason to flag on a non-combatant player.
Despite the reason, flagging is a form of pvp and this is a pvp centric game. I believe any activity you're partaking in while playing should feel rewarding in some way or another.
If I flag on someone, lets say the group that trained mine, and I win, that should feel like a victory. My reward for being victorious is the glint/drops from the trainers, and the risk/reward factor is I need to survive a timer or more enemies coming to my now broadcasted position.
That's not the case though. There's no escaping, laying low, waiting out my timer. There's no fighting off seemingly wave after wave of players trying to kill me, with larger numbers every time. This is how Aion's version of corruption went when rifting to the enemy faction's zone. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in an MMO, regardless of what side I was on.
Instead, I'm met with nerfs to my character which debuff me so much that anyone can kill me, sure they get the kill but it's not engaging or fun for either party. Plus I lose my gear.
Now before anyone replies with "bUt KiLLiNg wHiTe NaMeS iSn'T pVp". Yes It is. I'll use Aion as an example again because that's where I came from; often time's the spark that ignites huge pvp battles is when you kill enough farmers that their guild/friends come out to help them. And as I listed before, there are plenty of justifiable reasons to PK someone.
My solution: Give corruption a timer and severely reduce the nerfs you get for higher corruption levels. Maybe level 1 is a minute, level 2 is 3 minutes, level 3 is 5 or even 10 minutes. Allow us the earn our victory by surviving our corruption timer.
If you've ever played The Division, it's like going manhunt. Your position is broadcasted, you can loose your loot, but let the players take you down, because they grouped up or maybe they're just better than you. Not because the game nerfed you so much that anyone could do it.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
I lead a hardcore pvp guild in Aion for the better part of a decade, plan to do so again in Ashes, and focus on pvp in every game I play. Here's my thoughts on flagging;
There are often many reason to flag on a non-combatant player.
- they move into your farm spot
- they intentional train mobs onto your group
- they're a rival who you know wants to flag on you, so you do it first to get the jump
- maybe they've just got items you want
Despite the reason, flagging is a form of pvp and this is a pvp centric game. I believe any activity you're partaking in while playing should feel rewarding in some way or another.
If I flag on someone, lets say the group that trained mine, and I win, that should feel like a victory. My reward for being victorious is the glint/drops from the trainers, and the risk/reward factor is I need to survive a timer or more enemies coming to my now broadcasted position.
That's not the case though. There's no escaping, laying low, waiting out my timer. There's no fighting off seemingly wave after wave of players trying to kill me, with larger numbers every time. This is how Aion's version of corruption went when rifting to the enemy faction's zone. It was some of the most fun I've ever had in an MMO, regardless of what side I was on.
Instead, I'm met with nerfs to my character which debuff me so much that anyone can kill me, sure they get the kill but it's not engaging or fun for either party. Plus I lose my gear.
Now before anyone replies with "bUt KiLLiNg wHiTe NaMeS iSn'T pVp". Yes It is. I'll use Aion as an example again because that's where I came from; often time's the spark that ignites huge pvp battles is when you kill enough farmers that their guild/friends come out to help them. And as I listed before, there are plenty of justifiable reasons to PK someone.
My solution: Give corruption a timer and severely reduce the nerfs you get for higher corruption levels. Maybe level 1 is a minute, level 2 is 3 minutes, level 3 is 5 or even 10 minutes. Allow us the earn our victory by surviving our corruption timer.
If you've ever played The Division, it's like going manhunt. Your position is broadcasted, you can loose your loot, but let the players take you down, because they grouped up or maybe they're just better than you. Not because the game nerfed you so much that anyone could do it.
Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk.
5
Comments
Over the weekend I looted the hell out of large guilds bodies when some of them died. Right in front of them. My group moved in on a larger group's grinding spot and stole just about every mob that spawned. I had some back and forth trash talk with random people at events.
What did any of them do? The most that happened was one member of the opposing group would flag and auto attack me in order to provoke me into flagging back.
Instead, I called their bluff. I stayed non-combatant. Turns out they stopped attacking me. Every. Single. Time.
In what world can you steal from a big guild right from their face without them killing you for it? It's not like I didn't deserve it. This is the game with the current corruption system. Full groups afraid to kill a pesky solo player because of the repercussions of going corrupt.
I'd really love dev feedback on my suggestion in the above post. I'll go into more detail here.
Again, I don't know if devs even read this section, but I'd love to hear any thoughts on my suggestions and I'd be happy to help any way I can
I was opposed to any penalty system for pvp before playing and now after 3 weeks, I see how Steven's corruption/blight system benefits the majority of players in the game, especially the smaller groups and newcomers to the game.
There is plenty of pvp to be had in this game, flag up and look for it.
Flagging is very scuffed right now because of the fear of turning corrupt. One of many examples below
I get that flagging, corruption, blight are in place to deter griefing. But pretending that the current system is fair is just crazy. It's currently a paradise for the pve/gatherer who is terrified of player interaction. There needs to be a middle ground with proper risk/reward for ALL parties. Risk that doesn't destroy your character and give your gear away. Reward that makes it fun for everyone. I don't think my suggestions are very radical here.
I agree that the bounty hunting system should be a bigger part, but I still think corruption can be okay. It's the corruption penalties that are the problem. What fun is bounty hunting when the guy you're chasing is nerfed into oblivion?
While I will agree with you that a lot is scuffed right now, including the bug of killing noncombatants and not gaining corruption, it is difficult to follow your next points when #1 is that you flag to attack someone in a group and #3 is that you stop attacking or you go corrupt?
Why start attacking when you knew corruption would be the end result of killing them and you didn’t want corruption, is this an RP scenario where you just want to take a few whacks or bully them a bit?
Addressing #4 where you stop attacking and they can freely heal up and flag on you, I am still trying to figure out why you decided to flag on them in the first place and blow your cooldowns without an intent to kill? 🤔
#5 Yes, if you flag up and they are not flagged as well and you move past the RP attacking and actually follow through and kill them, you will turn red, this is the penalty you incur for killing a non-combatant. However, if you killed the dude in #4 that heals and flags up, no you would not be penalized.
My suggestion was that instead of complaining about no PVP, just stay flagged (pvp will find you) and engage with those that are flagged or that are willing to flag as there is plenty of this on my server. If you are not a true pvp’r looking for all PVP and just want to hand select only engagements where you have the upper hand, just flag up when you see someone else flagged that you think you can handle. If you want to bait someone else into flagging, just go back to your scenario #1 and flag up and toss out some basic attacks until they do flag. Tossing your entire rotation at them when they are not flagged resulting in cooldowns when you have no intention of killing them is just silly.
People might attack a non-combatant for many reasons. One could be simply to engage in pvp, another to gain some materials they are carrying upon a kill, another could be the guy was shittalking in global, could be an enemy of the guild, could be someone that previously looted them, could be they are encroaching on a resource spot they are at, the list goes on and on...The current system favors non-combatants right now, not the people that engage a non-combatant.
Comparing open world pvp which currently has pretty stringent penalties in place for engaging non-combatants, to child abuse and a mental deficiency just feels like you might be better off in a pve only game as you are failing to even understand the basics of what pvp might be about.
That's a good question and the reason I used this example. In an Ashes that doesn't have such a crazy penalty, this wouldnt happen. I'd attack them because I want to kill them, and I'd do my best to succeed.
In current Ashes, the penalty of going corrupt is far too extreme to warrant ganking someone for the sake of having fun. Those guilds didnt go corrupt to kill me even when they had way more of a reason.
So to answer your question, why start attacking is to hopefully provoke them to flag as well. But as I explained, there's not much of a reason for them to do that when they could wait it out.
As in every open world game, the element of surprise, or even having the first hit in a fight can be very important, especially if you're outnumbered.
Running around perma-purple lets any possible opponent always have the jump on you which is counter-intuitive to the open world game model.
If you actually think any of this, maybe Stardew Valley or The Sims are more your speed. No one with this mindset should be playing online games that have PvP.
But you running around purple looking for PVP would not be much different than a game where everyone always remains flagged as only someone flagged or that flags can attack you?
It sounds as if you want to see the non-combatant corruption system changed for everyone because you do not agree with it and yet, you are using it yourself throughout alpha 2 unless you have the upper hand? This comes across a bit double standard.
Like I mentioned, if you want to remain non-combatant and only pick battles you think you can win, just flag up when you see someone purple or provoke the person by flagging and engaging with a couple basic attacks to say 'let's go'. There is so much of this on my server that it is difficult to understand why people are complaining they are not seeing enough pvp...
I have 11,000+ hours in Aion alone. I won official and unofficial pvp events and tournaments throughout my DECADE of playing. I only quit because like most Korean MMOs, it got too P2W. I can safely say that ganking does not kill the player base of a pvp focused MMO.
Do you know what does kill games? PvErs being so terrified of PvP that devs feel forced to cater to them and take away some of the fun aspects of the game. Take Once Human for example; dead on arrival.
You can use something and want it changed at the same time. This isn't a double standard. If I'm going to engage someone, I don't want them to know it's coming or to be able to hit me first. If someone is going to attack me, they wouldn't want me knowing or hitting them first either.
And I don't only want fights that favor me. The most fun thing to do is wipe out groups when they severely outnumber you. I'm sure you'd agree it's much harder to do when they see your purple name sticking out like a sore thumb.
I am used to playing games where everyone is always flagged so my situational awareness is always top priority and plenty of people on my server that want pvp in this game just stay flagged but I get it, you are not looking for pvp anytime, just when it is likely someone does not see you to hit you first so I understand why you are using the current corruption system to your benefit.
The suggestion to flag up only when you see someone flagged that you think you can handle still applies and might be your safest option.
I don't know how you can come to that conclusion lol.
I want pvp all the time. If tons of people are flagged like they supposedly are on your server, that makes this whole issue a lot less important. On Castus, its extremely rare to find someone flagged, and if they are, it's because they're surrounded by 30 guild mates.
Which again, is why running around purple, at least on Castus, is just a way to make sure you're attacked first since no one else is going to be purple.
This is an absolute lie you don't go from wanting no penalties in pvp to extremely ridiculous penalties with now rewards.
Wow lol it's so crazy the pvp'rs are playing a game that has always been advertised as an open world pvp game. There has been game after game where the devs listen to all the pve'rs on discord and reddit, destroy the pvp system and then they wonder why their game is dead within the first 6 months.
If you don't want to pvp in the game that has been advertised as a large scale open world pvp game then this game is probably not the right game for your. You never see pvp'rs going into pve games and complaining and crying that there's no pvp. From all my experience in mmo's pvp'rs are normally all for finding a middle ground but the truth is pve'rs don't want to find a middle ground they dont want pvp in the game at all. They'll come into a discord discussion or thread and pretend that they're pvp'rs to try and seem credible and they're usually pretty easy to spot but the truth is they dont want any pvp.
I find it interesting that you are a mind reader but rest assured Uri Geller, I did go from wanting a zero penalty system to seeing the benefit to others in having the corruption system. You really should be careful with using words like absolute.
I am used to pvp games (do not play pve games) where there are no restrictions, griefing is the norm rather than exception, and full inventory and gear drops so a game like this with just a little loss of materials and xp seemed pretty carebear-like to me. I am also used to playing with a large hardcore pvp gaming community so in many of the games, servers were dominated, we had no issue gating progression of others or holding the best resource nodes.
Why have I changed my mind and I am no longer against a non-combatant pvp penalty ? Glad you asked rather than made ridiculous assumptions and accusations Uri, so let me tell you.
Having had a full pvp mindset for decades and seeing the same extremist arguments play out game after game after game about how PVE players ruin games or how PVPrs ruin games (I was always on the pro-PVP side) and seeing one game fail after another, I have come to realize over the last several weeks that Steven's corruption system is an attempt to balance. Steven has already stated that the corruption is overtuned for alpha so we know this will change, I am referring to the actual base mechanics he has in place to help balance his playerbase of both PVE and PVP players.
Now let me address your comment Uri about how I am wanting a system with extreme penalties with no rewards. First, we have no idea what the penalty will be, we just know that it is currently overtuned' so this tends to point to a lighter penalty system down the road. Steven has stated that players do not care as much about the gear or loss of gear in alpha like they eventually will in the actual game so he overtuned the corruption to prevent griefing during alpha testing. With this in mind, all the Henny Penny activity running around screaming the sky is falling is ridiculous.
Your suggestion that there is no reward is a bit skewed as this comes down to more of a risk greatly outweighing the reward. While the term reward is subjective, some players might consider just the killing or griefing of someone plenty reward for going red in alpha so to each his/her own.
So to sum up, you need another profession Uri as you are absolutely (and I can use this term with 100% accuracy) incorrect on stating that it is a lie that I went from not wanting any penalties to seeing benefit for some players in what Steven is trying to balance with his corruption system and I am willing to be flexible enough in my decades long strict PVP only mindset in the hope that Steven's approach will finally result in a game that is successful for more than a few months or a year.
The PvP meta right now is essentially pulling mobs into a group’s AoE to wipe them, and then looting the corpses. If you kill the person doing the training, you risk losing three pieces of gear. I don't want to encourage griefing, but if you can't kill someone who is being a tool, what's the point of open-world PvP? Intrepid talks about conflict and risk vs. reward, but who’s going to take the risk of losing three pieces of gear for a fight?
Right now, all you have to do is leave your mount out. If you get attacked, you can stand next to it, and the cleave kills the mount, causing them to go corrupt. Then your group can kill them without even flagging for PvP. Killing someone should carry risk, but the current penalties are too harsh. If you can’t kill the group that just sits on top of your group to farm kills, or the guy who trains mobs on you, or the one looting your tank’s corpse right in front of you, then what’s the point of having open-world PvP at all?
You should be able to kill a few people without the fear of losing gear or getting severe debuffs. The downsides of corruption at level 1 should be what we see at corruption level 3. I also think Blight should only apply to kills made while already corrupt. You should be able to kill players who earn it, but going full "murder hobo" should come with significant consequences.
These are all excellent points. I didn't think of the mount thing.
lol I gave you one sentence and you made up an entire or heavily exaggerated fictional history of your pvp background. Once again, you sir are no pvp'r you are a pve'r in disguise. How can I tell? By literally everything you've typed in this entire thread. Stop pretending and be proud of who you are. There's nothing wrong with pve'rs but there is something wrong with pretending to be what you're not in an effort to try an influence a pvp game and ruin it.
I never said corruption system was a problem but in it's current state it is absolutely terrible. There is no reward that warrants the penalties of the current corruption system.
As I have told my friends and members of our guild the pvp systems will go through many changes between now and release as well as many other systems. My goal is to find a balance and to not let pve'rs ruin yet another pvp game. Pvp'rs tend to vocalize their opinions a lot less on threads and discords which is a problem because it allows pve'rs to flood important discussions with the intent of destroying pvp. Developers see these discussions and think that it's the majority. They make changes that destroy the pvp, the pvp'rs leave and and the game dies. The developers always try to revert the changes but very few pvp'rs will ever return to a game after this stuff happens.
If you're a pve'r that absolutely fine lets try to find a system that works for everyone and remember that this is a game that has always been advertised as a large scale open world pvp game and thats why many many of us pvp'rs are here.
I am not certain why you are suggesting that the only people that will engage in open world pvp are griefers on alts when my server has people running around flagged all the time and people that readily flag up at resources. Open world PVP is happening all over my server on main characters. What I do see less of are players attacking noncombatants and engaging more with people that actually want pvp which I am pretty sure is the intent.
Regarding the pvp meta of pulling mobs on players to get them killed, this can be avoided. I know this as my small group did this for over an hour against a group 3x our size that showed up to take over the resource areas we were farming. They would flag to get us low and would then train mobs on us (including using a dragon) and then CC. Smart situational awareness, pulling less mobs, watching position, popping defenses, smart healing and rinse and repeat while taking all their tagged mobs and stealing their xp had them pretty triggered which was thoroughly enjoyable. We won, they left. The next group group that showed up and tried this were mostly lvl 25 (we had none) but were of even number to us so we simply flagged back and killed them, they left and did not return.
Yes, killing one person right now will result in a player going red but this is an alpha where steven stated he intentionally overtuned corruption to prevent griefing so we know that corruption will not stay at this level.
I have no idea why you are not seeing any open world pvp when it is so common on my server but perhaps flag up next time when you want PVP and give someone a basic love tap and see if they will accept the challenge and flag in return.
But that is the point, our pvp only mentality is not taking into consideration that this corruption system will be a bit more balanced in preventing zergs and large guilds from progression gating smaller guilds and solos from things like bosses and the best resource areas.
I have seen too many servers die off due the numbers game and I admit, I have been a part of the problem in many of these games. My mindset even a month ago would have been screaming that this is unfair but that is only because I have always looked at it from one side of the fence. I remember being pissed with BDO's karma system where I was penalized for attacking someone that had their pvp off that would dare encroach upon my node and found myself pretty close to red quite a few times as I did often engage. I think AoC's corruption system will end up being similar to that where you will have some leniency and not go red with a kill or two.
Like I said, my mindset has changed and I can see the point from the perspective of others, people that wish to play this game but do not want to be PK'd every time they try to progress or gather something. I like the idea of being directed toward engagements with likeminded players that want pvp and a game where the developer will try to balance things like forced pvp, zergs ect.
As far as you going into a resource area of a larger group and stealing their mobs and xp, you were the better group if you out-DPS'd them and deserved the xp.
As far as running in and stealing loot from under dead bodies, that will not last long as Steven has already hinted that looting a body that is not from your guild or raid group will likely result in it flagging you at some point soon.
No, you made one completely false statement and now counter with the second stating that I fictionalized my pvp background. Why am I not surprised? 🤣
Does simply replacing productive points with 'you are a liar' work for you often on forums?
Instead of addressing actual points I made, your comeback is an attempt to provoke by stating I fictionalized my pvp background without one reference to anything I have said and then proceeded to proclaim that I am a PVE player? I better be careful, who knows, next you might be tossing out a 'you mad bro' or calling me a Karen. 😲
The only semi-point you even came close to making was the washed up old regurgitated "the PVE people ruin games" stance I have watched play out (and have actually taken part in) for decades.
You Madam (I presume from your post that it is fine to guess genders) are the reason many of us PVP players are stereotyped and despised in many of these games. It is time to evolve and try to see out from underneath that protruding forehead.
Stop, you are not a pvp player you are a pve player and that's ok, someone people are just better and fighting programmed npcs and there's nothing wrong with that embrace who you are set yourself free and say it out loud.
"I am Its Me and Its_Me is pve, Its_Me_Pve and I'm proud to be....Pve."
This almost feels like you are digging for a 'I know you are but what am I' grade school retort. 🤣
I understand it is difficult to reply constructively without having a valid point, but I honestly expected more. I will award you a 'participation' trophy for the effort. 🏆
I am curious though with one statement you made.... You previously stated that "this is a game that has always been advertised as a large scale open world pvp game and thats why many many of us pvp'rs are here"
Although this game was advertised simply as "an open-world, non-faction based, no P2W, high-fantasy MMORPG" since 2016 and at kickstarter in 2017, what makes you feel that this game will not be a large scale open world pvp game because I certainly feel it will be. Is it because Steven is referring to it as PVX and has stated his system will significantly reduce a players exposure to non-consensual PVP? 🤔
Also, I am curious. You seem to suggest that you have been following this game for years but just signed up on the official Ashes of Creation website/forum on Nov 9th, a day after this last Alpha 2 started? Have you made it to the discord yet? 😉
My point is that PvP only happens if both parties flag. You can do whatever you want as long as you don't flag, because corruption is too strong. So, as it stands, the game is essentially not a true PvX experience, but more of a PvE game with a flagging system similar to WoW or New World.
I believe that the only players who will engage in open PvP are those on alt characters, because they care less about the consequences for those characters. In my opinion, the current system is the worst of both worlds. It has the PvE issues of not being able to kill players who deserve it, while also enabling mindless PKing on the PvP side.
I am giving feedback on the current system. There is some PvP on the server but its the worst people who are just messing with groups to annoy people who never flag up.