Looting bodies is a form of greifing, change my mind

ChaffyJay

We should talk about the repercussions of looting bodies. If you swoop in and loot a body while a party is in a fight, it should turn you automatically purple. Right now, there is no risk of someone getting free loot. My guild doesn't want to put everyone on a KOS list just because they looted a body.

How does everyone else feel about this?

laughingrav3n

There was an instance that made me quit playing most of Saturday and I feel like here would be a good place to write about it.

Me (LV 8 Mage) and my buddy (Lv 8 Bard) were farming outside of Jovea killing mobs when another group attacked us (LV 11 Ranger) following him was a LV 6 Mage. The Ranger PK'd us, so we instinctively fought back and died a few times, sure it happens but here is where it got interesting. The LV 6 Mage was the bagman for the LV 11 Archer. He was looting our bodies, so the only way for us to get our stuff was to Flag up and kill the LV 6 at which point there was a little chance of us getting some of our stuff. But now we have Corruption and you guessed it, the LV 11 Ranger was still around to PK us, now we lost 25% of our stuff including equipped items and you guessed it the Mage was still scooping it up. ended up with almost 7k in XP debt, lost precious materials and some gear I crafted and I felt like I was robbed at gunpoint, it wasn't fun, it just made me frustrated and thinking about the hours of work down the drain with no way to fight back or attempt to get my stuff. I entirely think he should be flagged when he looted us or even better gain corruption since looting a dead player is in itself a corrupt act.

mainedutch

My guild just had this issue.

We killed a dude who looted us, and obviously we got corrupted so everyone and their mother attacked us. When we asked them not to interfere with this one thief, they refused, so we fought them all. It was a *fair* fight of about 8 (us) on 20 (them)... It set off a bunch of drama.

None of that would have happened if there was a risk implemented for looting other players' bodies.

TLDR: automatically make players flag for PvP if they loot your body. Some of the items they take are considered "stolen" anyway.

If that were the case, we would've gotten justice, but instead that little thief got us into a ton of shit simply because we got corrupted for trying to take back what was ours.

Also, I believe in Steven's interview today with Pirate King or Thor or whatever, he said they were going to adjust looting other players. I desperately hope flagging is one of the first adjustments.

Andi

I believe that looting player corpses doesn't flag you is just an oversight and not intended. Pretty sure they'll fix that eventually.

Kilion

I agree, marking them for PvP makes sense.
But I disagree - this is not griefing. If it were you would ask for more than just marking the looter for PvP.

ChaffyJay

Kilion wrote: »

I agree, marking them for PvP makes sense.
But I disagree - this is not griefing. If it were you would ask for more than just marking the looter for PvP.

The first comment on this post sure sounded like a griefing moment to me.

Kilion

ChaffyJay wrote: »

Kilion wrote: »

I agree, marking them for PvP makes sense.
But I disagree - this is not griefing. If it were you would ask for more than just marking the looter for PvP.

The first comment on this post sure sounded like a griefing moment to me.

Thats an exploit, one where Intrepid has to ask themselves if they want to allow it, but IMO this is not griefing, because ultimately, they decided to fight. If they wouldn't have fought, the ranger would have been corrupted. Yes, this was frustrating - yes, it is not constructive game play. But it is not griefing.

Again, I agree that looting the body of a PvP flagged player should result in a PvP flagging for the one looting.

Pyrolol

You lose a bit of your materials, stop being sooks

daveywavey

Pick your battles more carefully. For laughingrav3n above, if they couldn't kill the Ranger, then they'd have been better off just leaving it alone. Flagging on the Mage meant that they lost more than if they'd just sucked it up and let it go.

ChaffyJay

Pyrolol wrote: »

You lose a bit of your materials, stop being sooks

What a great argument. Mind not changed.

Vhaeyne

I hope the current functionality is intentional.
I don't consider loot others to be grifing.

You could just as well outright lose 50-100% of materials on death to the void. I think some of the newer MMO players would cry about this, but I would consider it to be a fair penalty.

The current penalty is very fair IMO.

What is interesting about looting other players for a small portion of their goods is that it creates social pressure.

People have to decide to loot others.
The looted have to decide to do something about it or not.

If you flagged for looting I think it would make the social dynamic at play here less interesting. Right now it feels like a grey area and that leads to much more interesting social interactions.

It's also way way more tempting if there is a chance you could get away with it. It currently allows people to try and be sneaky.

Garrtok

You just lose some materials, it's really not such a big deal

Caeryl

It definitely should be adjusted. Only the killer can loot for ~5min (or kept locked for the same amount of a fully PvE death), and only after would the corpse pile unlock so anyone can loot. Gives you time to do a corpse run and it stays consistent with the looting rules everywhere else in the game.

The full loot free-for-all is fitting for Minecraft, not so much an mmo like this

laughingrav3n

To clarify we didn't know much about the corruption system and that he wouldn't gain corruption for attacking a non-flagged player if that player then flagged up and attacked back. We didn't really have much trouble fighting the LV 11 except he realized he couldn't kill us and dragged mobs in to swarm us and out pace any healing and kill us since he knowingly knew that mages and bards tend to have AoE attacks we would grab the aggro to the mobs and they would kill us, not him most of the time. Regardless I still feel like the low level mage should of been flagged up if he looted a PK'd players items. Not to say it needs to be done for all ashes.

BlankReg

Sometimes I couldn't see which dust pile was mine and had to guess which turned into arguments. Somewhat related, if you crash or if the game crashes you can log in to your dust pile getting looted. Would be good to be invulnerable or invisible logging in for 5 seconds.

mainedutch

Vhaeyne wrote: »

I hope the current functionality is intentional.
I don't consider loot others to be grifing.

You could just as well outright lose 50-100% of materials on death to the void. I think some of the newer MMO players would cry about this, but I would consider it to be a fair penalty.

The current penalty is very fair IMO.

What is interesting about looting other players for a small portion of their goods is that it creates social pressure.

People have to decide to loot others.
The looted have to decide to do something about it or not.

If you flagged for looting I think it would make the social dynamic at play here less interesting. Right now it feels like a grey area and that leads to much more interesting social interactions.

It's also way way more tempting if there is a chance you could get away with it. It currently allows people to try and be sneaky.

How would flagging players who loot other people corpses make this less interesting? The glint they take is literally flagged as stolen.

That is a risk, and they should be flagged for theft. Risk vs. Reward. "I want their shit, but taking their loot comes at the risk of potentially being attacked."

This seems like a no-shit idea.

I don't think people should be able to just grab corpses willy nilly.

CROW3

Kinda makes sense that looting another player’s corpse would flag a green to purple, or reset the timer on a purple’s flag.

There are plenty of rpgs that turn a player hostile when you steal NPC stuff, so fairly common mechanic.

Also, no - looting is not griefing.

Vhaeyne

mainedutch wrote: »

How would flagging players who loot other people corpses make this less interesting? The glint they take is literally flagged as stolen.

Someone being tempted by the possibility that they would not be seen and have no consequences is interesting to me.

Watching someone get away with something and actively deciding if I am going to let it slide or not puts the ball in my court. I like that. I have to decide if its worth it to go after them.

If they auto-flagged the game would be taking that choice from me. That is less interesting to me.

mainedutch wrote: »

That is a risk, and they should be flagged for theft. Risk vs. Reward. "I want their shit, but taking their loot comes at the risk of potentially being attacked."

All of that is still there. The game forcing a flag over such a minor crime seems like a over reaction to me.

It would feel like theft is just as bad as attempted murder.

mainedutch wrote: »

This seems like a no-shit idea.

I don't think people should be able to just grab corpses willy nilly.

I just don't agree that it's a "no-shit idea". For the reasons I just explained. I think we would be loosing some of the fun.

I like the idea that people can run around and be rats feeding off the corpse of others.

I also understand that my opinion may not be the popular one on this topic.

pyreal

Andi wrote: »

I believe that looting player corpses doesn't flag you is just an oversight and not intended. Pretty sure they'll fix that eventually.

Hope so.

Noaani

As of at least a few years ago, it was absolutely intended that any player could loot a corpse - so not an oversight.

@ChaffyJay

Looting a corpse of a player that someone else has killed is not griefing, it is a challenge.

You've just killed another player, in what ever circumstance that happened under. Rather than getting involved in that fight, this player looting a corpse or two is saying they are up for the next fight, when you are ready for it.

Hutchy1989

Steven said in PirateSoftwares stream that their will be bags that increase non-group players loot time and idk if its tied to bags or is just a general feature but looting will flag you if you arent in group

DeeSav

laughingrav3n wrote: »

There was an instance that made me quit playing most of Saturday and I feel like here would be a good place to write about it.

Me (LV 8 Mage) and my buddy (Lv 8 Bard) were farming outside of Jovea killing mobs when another group attacked us (LV 11 Ranger) following him was a LV 6 Mage. The Ranger PK'd us, so we instinctively fought back and died a few times, sure it happens but here is where it got interesting. The LV 6 Mage was the bagman for the LV 11 Archer. He was looting our bodies, so the only way for us to get our stuff was to Flag up and kill the LV 6 at which point there was a little chance of us getting some of our stuff. But now we have Corruption and you guessed it, the LV 11 Ranger was still around to PK us, now we lost 25% of our stuff including equipped items and you guessed it the Mage was still scooping it up. ended up with almost 7k in XP debt, lost precious materials and some gear I crafted and I felt like I was robbed at gunpoint, it wasn't fun, it just made me frustrated and thinking about the hours of work down the drain with no way to fight back or attempt to get my stuff. I entirely think he should be flagged when he looted us or even better gain corruption since looting a dead player is in itself a corrupt act.

The bag man doesn't even really matter... if you lost gear from corruption you wont get it back unless they equip it, are already corrupted, and it just happens to be one of the random pieces that were dropped off them. If you are strictly speaking about materials, they only drop a % of that as well so you will never actually fully get back what was taken if they started with an empty inventory. Unfortunately It seems like you were heavily provoked and overcommitted out of frustration. Jovea has a storage and you could have just banked all your remaining materials and gave them nothing except excess corruption for the ranger after the first death.

Peeger

Honestly, I am surprised how many people DON'T loot your corpse, especially when you were there for a while and getting along and helping others. I like I have to make sure if my bag is full of glint, to go sell before hitting a harder area. The only guy I looted anything good off of was a level 20 corrupted idiot killing low levels, and they grouped up and got him. Been leaving people I am farming around, and they have been doing the same. Its nice to see the best in people and not the worst, for sure!

BackgroundDust

Caeryl wrote: »

It definitely should be adjusted. Only the killer can loot for ~5min (or kept locked for the same amount of a fully PvE death), and only after would the corpse pile unlock so anyone can loot. Gives you time to do a corpse run and it stays consistent with the looting rules everywhere else in the game.

The full loot free-for-all is fitting for Minecraft, not so much an mmo like this

This. Player's dead body should be treated same as dead mob, with the same looting mechanics. (5 mins is way too long though)

laughingrav3n wrote: »

There was an instance that made me quit playing most of Saturday and I feel like here would be a good place to write about it.

Me (LV 8 Mage) and my buddy (Lv 8 Bard) were farming outside of Jovea killing mobs when another group attacked us (LV 11 Ranger) following him was a LV 6 Mage. The Ranger PK'd us, so we instinctively fought back and died a few times, sure it happens but here is where it got interesting. The LV 6 Mage was the bagman for the LV 11 Archer. He was looting our bodies, so the only way for us to get our stuff was to Flag up and kill the LV 6 at which point there was a little chance of us getting some of our stuff. But now we have Corruption and you guessed it, the LV 11 Ranger was still around to PK us, now we lost 25% of our stuff including equipped items and you guessed it the Mage was still scooping it up. ended up with almost 7k in XP debt, lost precious materials and some gear I crafted and I felt like I was robbed at gunpoint, it wasn't fun, it just made me frustrated and thinking about the hours of work down the drain with no way to fight back or attempt to get my stuff. I entirely think he should be flagged when he looted us or even better gain corruption since looting a dead player is in itself a corrupt act.

So, the ranger killed you, they got a bit of materials but instead of trying to kill the ranger you went and killed the mage?
Honestly, you should be mad at yourselves for making this decision.

Its_Me

Andi wrote: »

I believe that looting player corpses doesn't flag you is just an oversight and not intended. Pretty sure they'll fix that eventually.

It is not an oversight. Look up the Ashes Pathfinders - Episode 121 - Vision with Steven Sharif (Ashes of Creation Podcast) where he specifically states that picking up loot does not flag a non-combatant, it is intended for now.

With that said, Steven also later stated there were a few considerations in the works for death loot including a way to improve your bag stats with interaction time where it would take longer for someone to loot your death loot AND that flagging anyone not in your guild/raid that swoops in to loot very well might be the norm down the road.

Its_Me

laughingrav3n wrote: »

The Ranger PK'd us, so we instinctively fought back and died a few times,

Looking at your complaint, it does not appear that you wanted pvp during your situation so you should have simply used the mechanics of the game by not fighting back, having the ranger go red and going right back and THEN attacking (it would not flag you attacking a red) and picking up his dropped gear when you killed him.

If the mage decided to flag on you and kill you, rinse and repeat.

Turning that player(s) red makes his gameplay difficult and the dropped gear from the higher level would very likely have been worth a lot more than whatever materials you dropped and the xp can be farmed back quickly. For now, simply play the system and when you are ready for pvp, just flag/fight when someone else does.

Caeryl

BackgroundDust wrote: »

Caeryl wrote: »

It definitely should be adjusted. Only the killer can loot for ~5min (or kept locked for the same amount of a fully PvE death), and only after would the corpse pile unlock so anyone can loot. Gives you time to do a corpse run and it stays consistent with the looting rules everywhere else in the game.

The full loot free-for-all is fitting for Minecraft, not so much an mmo like this

This. Player's dead body should be treated same as dead mob, with the same looting mechanics. (5 mins is way too long though)

.

In a game like Ashes with significant travel time, 5 minutes is almost too short a timer for anyone to have any chance of reclaiming their corpse drops after a PvE death (PvP kills should of course let the killer grab their stuff immediately, but only the killer)

It's also consistent with looting rules for mobs. ie the killer can loot it, but everyone else has to wait for the timer to expire before they can take whatever is left on the corpse.

SirChancelot

laughingrav3n wrote: »

There was an instance that made me quit playing most of Saturday and I feel like here would be a good place to write about it.

Me (LV 8 Mage) and my buddy (Lv 8 Bard) were farming outside of Jovea killing mobs when another group attacked us (LV 11 Ranger) following him was a LV 6 Mage. The Ranger PK'd us, so we instinctively fought back and died a few times, sure it happens but here is where it got interesting. The LV 6 Mage was the bagman for the LV 11 Archer. He was looting our bodies, so the only way for us to get our stuff was to Flag up and kill the LV 6 at which point there was a little chance of us getting some of our stuff. But now we have Corruption and you guessed it, the LV 11 Ranger was still around to PK us, now we lost 25% of our stuff including equipped items and you guessed it the Mage was still scooping it up. ended up with almost 7k in XP debt, lost precious materials and some gear I crafted and I felt like I was robbed at gunpoint, it wasn't fun, it just made me frustrated and thinking about the hours of work down the drain with no way to fight back or attempt to get my stuff. I entirely think he should be flagged when he looted us or even better gain corruption since looting a dead player is in itself a corrupt act.

Yeah
That's the kind of BS this testing is supposed to find.

Veeshan

How can it be greifing if you lost the items in the first place by your own mistake? like thats a punishment for you for dieing due to typically yours or your party actions. The player who happens to be there to loot you is not griefing however that being said i think you should still be flagged for like 30 seconds when u loot something off another player grave to allow for people retaliate in the area and now worry bout going corruption for said retaliation.

nanfoodle

I'm of the mindset that looting someone body should not be a thing in PvE. PvP it should stay as it is. I personally do not like how it stands.

Whisky

Guilds putting everyone on KOS is lol, saw that happen in L2 on a few occasions, eventually the guilds that wanted to KoS the rest of the server, ceased to exist.

Looting other bodies is NOT greifing it is however, pvp and should flag accordingly. imo ofc