How to save PvP before its officially released

I posted this as a reply to the feedback thread but wanted to give it a section on its own for others to add to.

Every hear of a game called "Darkfall"? Yeah, I saw what it was like when gangs of naked players were running around killing random players and getting their loot while having no notable repurcussions because if they died, so what? They were naked anyways and overcame this by banding together. Naked tribes were common and it was cancerous. Imagine entire servers taken over by a single guild that ran around farming the average player while being completely naked so they didnt lose anything. Meanwhile the normal players were treated like cattle to be farmed for whatever gear or resources they had acquired.

Before anyone mentions the karma penalties like gear drops, the stat penalties, etc etc, ask yourself why is that even a thing? In it's current state, this is neither a PvP game or a Pve game. It's more of a PvE game pretending to be a PvP game. Pick one or redo the whole idea because this aint it. Which leads me to the idea of how to save this game before it even launches...

You see, PvP games NEED PvE players. PvE players keep the game economy going and as messed up as it sounds, you need sheep (PvE) to keep the wolves (PvP) happy. If there's too much pressure on PvE players, they leave. This is how games die. No more economy and eventually PvP players have to start getting their own resources which leads them to become the new sheep which others feed on. Rinse and repeat until no one is left.

What I propose is a compromise. Set some nodes up to be full flag PvP zones with no penalty. The hook is these nodes offer HUGE buffs for those controlling them. However, make these nodes easy to take and hard to defend. Why? It creates dynamic gameplay where if you want to keep it, you have to devote players to defending it. This would then create an area with a lot of PvP activity naturally occurring as they'll always be someone wanting to take it and another group with people dedicated to defending it, all day, every day. Toss in a ramping buff so the longer its held the stronger the buff gets. Maybe even PvP currency for guild cosmetics and other fluff via vendors only available at these nodes. Now you've got an area people want to hold.

As for the rest of the world, continue with the current Karma and Blight penalty, maybe even more severe than it currently is. Then make it so that the node we mentioned before as being a contestable PvP area, requires resources gathered out in the more PvE oriented world. Maybe it consumes trees to keep walls up. Maybe you need a constant supply of various stones and/or ore. See what I'm saying? Give PvE a role to play and make them valuable to PvP players.

The reason for these two things is to give PvP players something to do other than troll PvE players while also assigning value to PvE players keeping their guild's node going. Now they're just as valuable to the guild as PvP players while also creating an environment that those who do PvP would have reason to also protect PvE players from players that are toxic and try to grief them.

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Comments

caldrin

I thought the plan was to have full on pvp areas with better resources.. tho I have not been keeping up with all the updates..

But Darkfall was awesome from the start to the end..

I never raided naked..

Steel_Revenant

caldrin wrote: »

I thought the plan was to have full on pvp areas with better resources.. tho I have not been keeping up with all the updates..

But Darkfall was awesome from the start to the end.. I never raided naked..

Meh. The plan has changed a few times. The more players they've gotten to actually test, the less like the original idea it has become.

As to Darkfall, I dunno how you never experienced that. It was a pretty common thing. I reemember when it first launched, there was even a GM event that devolved into naked raiding and stayed a thing all the way up until the servers shut down. Which brings me to the next point. If it was so amazing, why did it only last 3 years?

Let's avoid that same fate and fix this before the game is DOA.

caldrin

oh not saying naked raids never happened.. just never seen the point in it when basic gear was so cheap..
Might have only been 3 years but was 3 years of non stop fun.. still devs sucks pretty bad and did not help they they announced the new Darkfall way to early.. and then they messed that up as well..

Steel_Revenant

Fair enough. Just trying to do my part and offer suggestions that hopefully the devs will see if enough people get behind it.

This idea of the current PvP style not changing because certain dev(s) had nostalgia for a 20 year old idea that never worked well to begin with is somewhat concerning. Makes me think of an old writing professor I had back in the day who constantly told us not get too attached to an idea because a good one will always need revision and a bad one will just stay that way.

Kalnazzar

Steel_Revenant wrote: »

Fair enough. Just trying to do my part and offer suggestions that hopefully the devs will see if enough people get behind it.

This idea of the current PvP style not changing because certain dev(s) had nostalgia for a 20 year old idea that never worked well to begin with is somewhat concerning. Makes me think of an old writing professor I had back in the day who constantly told us not get too attached to an idea because a good one will always need revision and a bad one will just stay that way.

You’re missing a key point here—many players actually enjoy games that come with real player risk. Yes, there’s the possibility of getting killed, but that’s part of the thrill. Deciding whether to fight, flee, or even face defeat adds layers of strategy that make encounters exciting. Ashes of Creation has built a much harsher PvP system than other games, where not only can you lose gear, but repeated negative actions result in severe stat penalties and the new Blight mechanic. This isn’t a ‘no-consequence’ system; it’s a carefully balanced risk-and-reward setup.

I completely agree with you that griefing is not PvP. Toxic players who harass others for kicks aren’t contributing to meaningful gameplay. However, AoC is built around the need for resources to progress in every part of the game. This scarcity is what drives competition. If you’re gathering materials in my area, it’s fair to expect that I may challenge you for it. In my book, that’s the spirit of PvP in a resource-heavy world—you either negotiate, trade, buy, or be prepared to defend what you’re trying to claim.

At the end of the day, PvP with consequences creates a dynamic world that keeps players engaged and encourages guild alliances, resource strategies, and a bit of healthy rivalry. It’s what adds depth and meaning to the interactions between PvP and PvE players, rather than just dividing the two into separate realms.

Steel_Revenant

Not talking about dividing the two. I'm talking giving them both space to do what they do best while also supporting each other. I say this from experience. I've seen at least 4 games off the top of my head that did almost exactly this same thing AoC is trying and they only lasted a few years. This isn't a new formula. It's just new to many players because games that have tried this have failed and therefore aren't on the radar anymore.

IustinusShiva

Have you actually been PK'd, or are you just reacting out of fear?
I've been PK'd exactly twice, and the first I think someone misclicked in the very very beginner area with the sickly goblinsnand got smacked down hard)

It just doesn't happen very often right now, at least not on my server, because the punishment for corruption is punishing enough that people really need to decide if they want to risk their gear.

RedLeader1

caldrin wrote: »

I thought the plan was to have full on pvp areas with better resources.. tho I have not been keeping up with all the updates..

Hasn't changed. They just haven't implemented those areas in the A2 yet.

My theory is that you just need to make PvP players play defense as well as offense. Raiding a node is going to potentially yield far greater resources than slaughtering PvEers, for what little they are carrying.

on our server there is little to no PvP, it seems like the minute anyone turns corrupt they get smacked down.

Steel_Revenant

IustinusShiva wrote: »

Have you actually been PK'd, or are you just reacting out of fear?
I've been PK'd exactly twice, and the first I think someone misclicked in the very very beginner area with the sickly goblinsnand got smacked down hard)

It just doesn't happen very often right now, at least not on my server, because the punishment for corruption is punishing enough that people really need to decide if they want to risk their gear.

Not reacting to anything. I'm trying to get them to move the candle away from the curtains before the house catches on fire. I REALLY want this game to succeed but I'm telling you, I've seen this almost same exact thing attempted several times with some sort of new twist each time and it just doesn't work. Either PvP is set too weak and it becomes a PvE game disguised as PvP or it's too lax and it becomes a gankfest.

If you read my post, you'd see that I don't want PvP to go away. I just want it to be sustainable so this game doesn't go belly up in 3 or so years.

Zapatos80

What OP described sounds like what lawless zones are. Right now we only have 2 naked lawless zones, but many will come, including the whole ocean. I think a lot will be put there to make it very lucrative to be there, and so these will be the "ffa pvp nodes" OP described.

mainedutch

Zapatos80 wrote: »

What OP described sounds like what lawless zones are. Right now we only have 2 naked lawless zones, but many will come, including the whole ocean. I think a lot will be put there to make it very lucrative to be there, and so these will be the "ffa pvp nodes" OP described.

Reiterating this.

Open PvP zones are planned, and the lack of them is making gank nerds angry.

Plus corruption is intentionally over tuned for early alpha.

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