Fighter First impressions

Imnotkio

I'll post my first impressions here. I'm giving a heads-up that I'm level 17 right now and only had a weekend to play with it, so there might be some stuff that I'm missing or mechanics that I haven't understood yet.

Overall feeling
Fighter feels f* great. The hits and impact on the abilities, the mobility, the ability to jump dodge, and grab a bow and hit some shots and then close the gap and it instantaneously switches to the sword, it all feels f* amazing. The combat is stellar, good job. I also feel like there are quite a few different combos you can do with the fighter's skills.

Momentum

First of all, the momentum spending and acquisition. I think there is an issue with it. Sometimes when you activate berserk your momentum drains really fast, not enough to spend like 2 abilities. Sometimes it drains really slowly and you have time to weave momentum-generating skills to keep berserk for really long. I can't really fully give feedback on the archetype mechanic until this has been fixed and I know the intended design. Personally, both extremes are either too good or too bad, and a middle ground where you can extend your berserk by weaving momentum-generation abilities while not being able to keep it forever is the best option

The stances: So far I haven't needed the 2 other stances in pve. Since playing with groups, and mobs having almost no cc abilities, Form of fluidity bonuses are useless. The same for the form of celerity as I don't need to run anywhere and don't take damage/clerics heal way outweigh HP regen bonuses. The procs are also kinda meaningless. Since most of my and my group's weapons apply stagger, I don't really need it to use crippling blow and shaken has no use for me at the moment (I don't really know about archetype synergies at this moment so maybe shaken is useful for other players).

In pvp, I can see more use for the stances, but since the fighter is so fragile right now and TTK is so low, I don't really see a time for fighters to build momentum before the new stances become effective. Honestly, My tactic has been staying away with a bow until momentum is high then going in with berserk (which leaves me cc-immune anyway) and quickly dispatching the target, and then retreating and going back to bow (weird gameplay for a fighter since he can't really resist enough damage to stay melee with a large group). So cc resist and move speed are more useful in PVP, but are not that significant atm to be honest (maybe this changes when I improve my gameplay).

Skill-specific feedback

blitz - no Z-axis movement. please fix.

wallop - no animations, no description of whether it's a single target or cone ability

Battle cry - Weirdly, it weakens enemies but generates momentum based on shaken enemies. Must be something to create synergy with the form of fluidity. I should test it more

knock out - Don't like it. I prefer a hard cc for fighters than a break upon damage cc.

leap strike - leap strike is a good mobility skill, to close gaps and travel great distances. But it does better when I hit enemies that were shaken. The only way for me to apply shaken is to be in melee distance with the enemy. So again it's a weird mechanic, especially for pve. Maybe there are again archetype synergies that make this make more sense.

Berserk - Again, I can't really give feedback on this skill as the momentum consumption rate seems to be tied to something that varies along gameplay, so I don't know the intent behind the true form of the ability.

That's it. I'll add more feedback next weekend.

Imnotkio

Follow up on the fighter feedback:

Right now, the fighter in PVP has a very big disadvantage which is building momentum. The game TTK is so low, you don't have enough time to build momentum and then use it effectively before being killed. A ranger can explode you before you have the time to get half the momentum in your bar. On top of that, launging assault, which is a great mobility skill, spends momentum so it's unfeasible to use both berserk and launging assault.

A good way to generate momentum quickly is Battle Cry, but it's a long animation and you can't use it while doing other things, so it's complicated to stop and scream in the middle of the battlefield while people take like 2~3 seconds to kill you. Maybe allow Battle Cry to be cast while casting other abilities.

Currently, Fighter is very replaceable in large-scale pvp. Ideally, Fighter's role would be:
1. reach the backline and do damage where mages/rangers can't reach.
2. Apply CCs and debuffs like armor reduction and anti-healing
3. Survive long enough so tanks and clerics can help you stay alive.

None of these are either working or the fighter's specialty.
1. Mages and rangers have a huge ability range and they can easily hit anyone on the battlefield.
2. Projectiles and abilities are not blocked or intercepted by terrain, environment, and other players.
3. Anti-healing (wounds) is widely available in weapon skill trees, and the fighter has no special anti-healing ability or armor reduction ability.
4. TTK is so low that the Fighter doesn't survive long enough to build momentum, stack wounds, or do significant damage to the backline.


My suggestions:
Not fighter related, but hopefully, it can be passed along:
1. Implement or increase the body-blocking function of projectiles and abilities.
2. alternatively, shorten the range of ranged skills
3. Increase pvp TTK, please!
4. The tank's protect skill should have a passive that allows the tank to share the healing with the target of protection ( something like 50% of healing received goes to the protect's target). Also maybe increase the protect distance so that fighters can still have protect active while in the enemies' backline.

Fighter related:
1. Consider adding a skill like the tank's which generates 100 grit, or add momentum generation by more abilities.
2. More hard CCs (get rid of knock-out sleep if necessary), stronger anti-heals (for instance, single target full wound stacks ability and aoe half wound stacks), interrupts, and armor reduction abilities
3. Buff the green and blue stance's bonuses (hp regen and cc evasion)

That's it. More next weekend

Saint1

The only thing I didnt like from Leap Strike is that it has a delay to start the jump, if it was instant cast to start the jump animation it would feel more fluid.
Its really hard to hit people with that skill since its kinda slow and people move a lot

Rym

I do also think fighter can use more survivability. It would be pretty feasible to see it receive a flat 50% damage received reduction in PvP as it's melee, so it can actually survive for more than 2 seconds and clerics can heal you.

Back in the game I played, there were sieges with hundreds of players, and there were plays that synergize so well with each other but players never quite figured out how to do it, as this requires 3 people working together.

The Gladiator was akin to the fighter in Ashes, the Templar was the tank and the Cleric was the hero. The templar had a unique skill called Bodyguard, for 30 seconds or so, ALL damage taken by the target would be redirected to the Templar, all except DoT damage. The templar could further synergize this with Iron Skin, which was a flat 50% damage received reduction for 30 seconds. Bodyguard has a range of about 20-30 meters.

So the Templar could pop bodyguard+iron skin, and the cleric could stay further behind focus healing the templar, while the gladiator could pop berserk and go full harambe like a wrecking ball against tens of players at once doing AoE attacks. This was an extremely effective tactic that barely anyone even knew was possible, and was very rarely used, but the gladiator being backed by the templar which in turn was being constantly healed by the cleric and had his own self heals as well made this combo impressive. And extremely difficult to deal with, with the meta being to completely ignore the gladiator and let him go back after he does his AoE attacks.

The cooldown for bodyguard was about 2 minutes, and I think bodyguard also used to provide damage resistance to the templar as well. Iron Skin had a longer cooldown though, around 5 or 10 minutes at some point, then 3 minutes afair as the game progressed.

And yes, there were templar duos which used Bodyguard on each other for the benefits.

Imnotkio

Third-week feedback:

I seem to have figured out which momentum-draining speed was the intended one. When servers are at a low load, and things are smoother, the momentum drains at lighting speed when berserk is activated, it lasts about 2~5 seconds depending on how much you properly use your abilities to extend it. This is not good because It's like the ultimate fighter ability and you save all your momentum, not spending on anything else, to get a rotation at a little more damage.

In pvp, you'll most likely need to use berserk as a CC break basically, because with all the mobility players can just avoid you for the 3 seconds berserk last if you're not doing damage. Even on a larger scale (40v40) if you use berserk to engage the enemy's group, your berserk will be over before you finish your leap strike to get in. If you save Berserker for after going in, you're probably gonna get blown up anyway in 2 seconds because of how TTK is designed. Blood infusion is not even close to being enough to keep you somewhat alive and clerics don't have enough action economy to keep you alive unless the fighter becomes the center of all the healers' focus (which they don't because clerics are usually in the backline and can't reach you without putting themselves in danger). In short, it takes all the effort of tanks, clerics, bards, and the fighters themselves to become somewhat useful in bigger fights, while other classes mainly either rely on themselves (mages and rangers keeping distance and kiting) or require very little support to do then do even more than the fighters do.

Another issue I've encountered is how some abilities that seem like they should be used at will require animations to finish before you can cast them. TTK is already so short, that if you stop to do a Battle Cry mid-battle, you die. If you have to stop to change stances, you miss essential seconds of the fight. If you can't activate Berserk instantly, you have no chance of surviving if you stop to do a maim or a Battle Cry and you have to wait for it to finish to cast Berserk.

Additional note: Leap Strike if very hard to use on an incline. If a hill is a little bit steep, it becomes impossible to use leap trike towards the top of it (at least in action cam)

(Not fighter specific, hopefully you pass along) Fighter adjacent is the lifesteal stat in the game. Currently, you have a 25% chance of proccing lifesteal, refilling your HP according to the amount of dmg you do in that specific hit. You have no control over how big is the proccing chance. This is almost useless as it is completely unreliable on which hit the lifesteal will proc. During a test, with 34% of lifesteal, I got almost nothing back during an entire rotation. It doesn't feel good for sure.

Suggestions (on top of all the other suggestions on this post):
As always: increase pvp TTK, please!

1. Decrease momentum depletion rate while Berserk is active.
2. Berserk, Battle Cry, and the stances should be off global abilities (like blood infusion)
3. (Not fighter specific, hopefully you pass along) Make lifesteal a guarantee and constant lifesteal, and reduce the dmg to hp ratio of lifesteal.

Ghostgg

I endorse this message. Fighter feels great in small scale but it's pretty trash in large scale. you can do a pretty good execute and burst every 30-45s or so but other classes can do it far more often with far more safety.

I agree the tanks protect skill should be the answer but it's just not right now it needs to be way stronger. Or give us big pvp dmg reduction. Something like x% per nearby player with a large area would go a long way to making it feel better.

Imnotkio

Final Feedback:

After rereading all my feedback on this thread, I can say it is valid, and I stand by it. The issues remain.

One thing I can say I was wrong was the ranged archetype skill ranges. While they do have a huge range in some abilities, most AoE abilities seem to have a very reasonable range. This makes these archetypes need to get up and close if they want to do some big AoE damage.

The issue is, that the entire stat base of the game is gear-dependent. A mage can be as naturally tanky as a tank or a fighter.

There are 6 base stats, each half works the same as the other half but for physical stats rather than magical.
Str -> Int
Dex -> Wis
Cons -> Ment

So a mage that builds for Int-Wis is going to be as tanky as a fighter that builds for Str-Dex. They are both going to be doing similar damage (coping) and they are going to be as squishy as the other. You could say a Str-Con build for a fighter would be tankier than Int-Ment for a mage, but the truth is there is more magical aoe damage in larger scales so you'd probably have more hp but take more damage. A fighter could also go to a Str-Ment build but all it would do is make a fighter just as tanky as the mage. Or the mage could build for Int-Con and be just as tanky as the fighter with that build.

And then you add the fact that a mage has a shield, and the ranger has a slightly bigger range so he can stay off melee range to hit the backline, but the fighter has basically nothing to mitigate damage. We have lifesteal but that is predicated on us doing damage. The cc immunity in Berserker is nice but since TTK is so low and Berserker drains like its life depends on it, it doesn't really matter much because you can easily be exploded without being pinned down, but even if you don't Berserker ends in like 3 seconds and you die anyway.

So overall, mages and rangers have more damage capabilities, more effective and instant CCs (quick freeze combo, Roots), and bigger range, and even when they need to get up close, they are usually the same tankyness as a fighter. Wounds are applicable as weapon procs and are meaningless at the moment since TTK is so low, so Fighter is left with not really being better than other DPS classes in anything.

I think this is a problem not only for the fighter but for the tank too. Tanks have a hard time initially in the leveling phase because they have no natural tankyness, it's all gear dependent. Tanks spend part of the early game kiting and dodging the monsters to "tank" for the party. But at least the tank has a lot of defensive abilities that give them their survivability. Fighter has some, but they are situational and don't give you a base increase in survivability, making it mostly ineffective.

Suggestion

All the other suggestions still apply (except for decreased range in ranged archetypes AoE abilities maybe). Aside from those, a few more:

1. To me, the first thing is to shift some of the power from gear to character base stats (or preferably nerf gear power creep), with pre-defined level stat boots. Tanks, clerics, and fighters should be naturally tankier than rangers, bards, and mages.

2. PvP TTK increase, please.

3. I think you could increase Berserker cooldown to 1 minute, and then decrease momentum draining speed, and add damage resistance to the Berserker ability. Separate the cc break from Berserker (maybe add it to the battle cry temporarily until you can get a new cc break ability)


4. Brutal cleave and Cataclysm need a bigger area and Cataclysm should have at least a way to cast it in half the time, it's too slow currently. Consider adding silence, dazed, and other disable abilities.