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Tanking Challenges: The Burden of XP Debt, Repair Costs, and Glint Loss

OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
edited November 21 in Tank Archetype
[TL;DR]
As a level 21 tank, I find tanking particularly punishing due to the unique XP debt, armor repair costs, and the 25% loss of materials upon death. These factors hit tanks harder than other roles since we’re on the frontlines and die more frequently. Additionally, AoC’s group composition, allowing eight players but typically only requiring one tank, may reduce the demand for tanks.

I’m concerned that these combined factors might decrease the appeal of the tank role. Has anyone else felt this? Should XP debt and material loss be shared among group members to distribute penalties more fairly? Or should we reduce or remove these penalties if a Cleric resurrects the tank? I’d love to hear the community’s thoughts on this.

PS: Amusingly, I came across this post from a cleric who mentions similar concerns about the challenges for tanks: A Cleric’s Suggestion on Tanks. Additionally, HiruxArai also raised some great points on the lack of incentives for tanks, including ideas on reducing penalties if resurrected by a Cleric: HiruxArai’s Post on Tank Incentives. I also found a reddit's post talking about it : Current huge disincentive to playing tank.

It’s interesting to see this issue recognized across different roles. Looking forward to hearing everyone’s thoughts!

Edit1: Added mention of the 25% material loss on death, which further increases the financial burden on tanks.
Edit2: Added HiruxArai's suggestion to reduce or remove penalties if resurrected by a Cleric.
Edit 3: Added a reddit post talking about it (i'm not the OP)

--

As a level 21 tank currently exploring Ashes of Creation in its Alpha 2 phase, I wanted to share specific challenges I’ve encountered with this archetype. While tanks are often considered a cornerstone of group dynamics in most MMOs, certain mechanics in AoC make tanking feel uniquely punishing.

Individual XP Debt and High Armor Repair Costs

In AoC, as in many MMOs, the tank role depends heavily on teamwork. However, what sets AoC apart is the individual XP debt and armor repair costs that impact tanks more severely due to their frontline role and high damage intake.

While I have no problem accepting punishment for my own mistakes, if a tank’s death results from another player’s error—such as unexpected DPS aggro or a lapse in healing—the tank alone bears a steep personal penalty, making each group failure especially costly.

Sometimes, the entire group might wipe, but in my experience, the tank often dies first, leaving DPS to kite enemies while the healer resurrects the tank, who then picks up aggro and allows the group's XP grind to continue, leaving only the tank with the XP debt to recover from.

Reduced Demand for Tanks Due to Group Composition

Another factor that might affect the appeal of the tank role in AoC is the unique 8-player group structure. While most traditional MMOs with smaller groups of 4 players include one tank, one healer, and multiple DPS roles, AoC’s larger group composition often includes just one tank while relying more heavily on DPS and healers.

This composition reduces the frequency of tank demand, which may further discourage players from taking on the role, especially with the additional XP debt and repair burdens.

Potential Solution: Shared XP Debt Among Group Members

While I understand that tanks are usually in high demand in MMOs and that AoC’s group composition could help balance this, I worry that the increased XP debt burden on tanks might have the opposite effect, discouraging players from stepping into this role.

One possible solution could be to share XP debt among group members. Since XP gains are already shared within the group, sharing the XP debt would distribute the cost of group mistakes more fairly, making tanking less punishing and encouraging more players to consider this essential role.

What Do You Think?

I’m curious to hear if other players feel similarly. Should AoC consider adjusting the XP debt mechanic to make it fairer for tanks, or perhaps even share it among group members? Are there other ideas the community might have to make the tank role more balanced and appealing? Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Comments

  • MagiesMagies Member, Alpha Two
    I do not think punishment should be lessen to tanks for dying in group even if its due to their teammates mistake. Tanking in this game has evolved from other MMOS as I find myself kiting mobs more frequently than in other MMOS, specially so when my healers are struggling due to skill or gear.

    Demand for tanks is always at an all time high whenever I've been on (Which is all the time)

    Yes tank repairs are expensive and XP debt sucks too. Caster also get one shotted by random stuff more often than not, specially in random parties.
  • OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Magies wrote: »
    I find myself kiting mobs more frequently than in other MMOS, especially when my healers are struggling due to skill or gear.

    That's interesting you mention kiting, as that was another point I initially wanted to discuss. In Ashes of Creation, kiting might be a good tactic to avoid dying, but it feels discouraged in party settings. The reason is that AoC relies heavily on ground-targeted area buffs and debuffs, which often have significant effects. When you’re forced to kite, it’s easy to miss out on these, reducing their overall impact on combat.
    Magies wrote: »
    Demand for tanks is always at an all-time high whenever I've been on (which is all the time).

    That hasn’t been my experience, though I think demand likely varies by server and time of day. It’s good to hear that demand is higher for you, but I haven’t consistently seen this myself.
    Magies wrote: »
    Caster also get one-shotted by random stuff more often than not, especially in random parties.

    I understand what you're saying—DPS players do sometimes die unexpectedly. However, my point is that tanks generally die more often than DPS and healers, especially in group settings. This means that tanks carry a heavier XP debt over time compared to other roles, which can feel like an additional burden without any added benefits to offset it.

    This convo reminded me that, on top of repair costs, I also end up taking home less Glint since 25% is lost on each death. This essentially leaves tanks with higher costs and lower income compared to DPS classes.

    Would be interested to hear if others are experiencing similar challenges or have different perspectives on tanking in AoC, especially around kiting, group demand, and XP debt.
  • HiruxAraiHiruxArai Member, Alpha Two
    As a Cleric, I 100% agree with OP, and made a post here describing both of the options listed here, both in OP's statement, and in the linked Cleric's statement. I think either of these would be amazing options to incentivize playing on a tank, as they are in High demand on Lyneth, but it appears there aren't many available to group with. It is very hard to get a group going, when there are no tanks. I have sat many times, looking for a tank with a full party of 7 only missing out on the tank. Everything OP has said is very well put and I agree 100%.
  • OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I just read your post, and you made a lot of great points. Let me quote you on a few:
    HiruxArai wrote: »
    one of the biggest issues I have noticed is the lack of tanks. It is near impossible to find them for groups and I believe that is because there are almost no incentives to play the Archetype; actually, it is almost incentivized to not play Tank.

    I completely agree. I’ve experienced this firsthand, and you worded it better than I could.
    HiruxArai wrote: »
    1: The first fix I would suggest would be to reduce EXP debt and Durability loss if resurrected by a Cleric by 80%. Every tank I have talked to thought this fix alone would make the class a ton more bearable.

    Reducing or removing the XP debt and durability loss when a Cleric resurrects the tank is an excellent idea. This change alone could make the tank role far more attractive.
    HiruxArai wrote: »
    2: An alternate fix for that would be to spread the EXP debt to the party if the tank dies. Split their 4% exp debt between the party, as it is a party’s priority to keep the tank alive, and if the tank dies, everyone should share in the losses. This could make many unhappy, but if you want to incentivize tanking, you also are incentivized to get a good Cleric as well. I think this plays into the Risk vs Reward aspect really well.

    I agree that spreading XP debt across the party is a bold suggestion. This shift would emphasize teamwork and mutual responsibility, fitting well with AoC’s risk vs. reward philosophy. Additionally, it might be worth adjusting the 25% Glint loss on death specifically for tanks, either by reducing it or sharing it among the group. This would help balance the financial strain that tanks face compared to DPS roles.

    All in all, it’s great to hear everyone’s thoughts on this. So far, we have two solid suggestions to address the problem, and I wonder if there are other ideas out there ?
  • CrotchlessCrotchless Member, Alpha Two
    Orijin wrote: »
    [TL;DR]
    As a level 18 tank, I find tanking particularly punishing due to the unique XP debt, armor repair costs, and the 25% loss of materials upon death. These factors hit tanks harder than other roles since we’re on the frontlines and die more frequently. Additionally, AoC’s group composition, allowing eight players but typically only requiring one tank, may reduce the demand for tanks.

    you shouldn't be grinding with a lot of material or your asking to get upset with this system. losing glint however i understand, i lost 3k glint last weekend in 10 minutes from mistakes and bugs.. it hurt. as far as everything else..... if youre tanking stuff in your level range and gear capabilities you dont die too often. if youre like me and my group, you're pushing harder content for more rewards. hence risk/reward system. so i dont think it needs to be changed. however i love the idea of being rez'd reducing the loss!

    this is a very risk/reward game. When tanking the harder content and the tank goes down, you can be sure half if not all the party is as well. so its a good system in my mind. but again, reducing the penalties when rez'd would be a fantastic patch to help the burden tanks seem to feel when at low levels


  • ApokApok Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I'm almost 25 tank, you know how I dealt with this issue. Told the people to stop pulling agro or you're out, I recorded videos and if I died I watched what I recorded and called that person out. Somtimes they do it unknowingly like one time I saw a bunch of purple musicale notes hitting everything and pulling in way more than the party could handle. I told the bard about this and he had no clue this was happening. He stopped using that skill and I stopped dying. take charge and/or talk these things out with your group.
  • RumloxRumlox Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two


    A big improvement would be reducing the spike in incoming damage. Also, mobs like Blood Blades have ground effects that you’re supposed to dodge, but the only visual cue for the ability, aside from a cast bar that’s only visible on one mob at a time, is the effect on the ground. In a group, the spell effects from your team often make it impossible to see anything on the ground. This means that if you pull more than one Blood Blade, it becomes a bit of a dice roll whether you survive or not. Fixing stuff like this would make it less likely to die due to bad luck as a tank

  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    Question. Can they offset the XP debt by having the tank earn more experience by taking damage? Build it in to the activity so that the effects of the role are covered. As far as repair costs, a good group would pony up to keep their tank at top condition. So perhaps for PUGs tanks could charge a fee associated with the risks of playing with a less dependable group. Perhaps even a tank currency from the local node to use on exclusive tank gear.
  • zheta42zheta42 Member, Alpha Two
    I posted this in the big feedback thread a few days ago of my thoughts at the time. I have been soloing more than grouping because of "Reduced Demand for Tanks Due to Group Composition."
    People only want 1 Tank (and maybe Cleric) in groups. This got worse around level 8 or so. While I don't think 2 Tanks are bad in a group, nor do I think Tank DPS is actually that low, the playerbase has decades of holy-trinity-style gameplay behind the 1 "Tank" mentality. This might get a little better with sub classes.

    I don't expect Tanks to be #1 DPS, but I do think it would be good for groups to work, and be encouraged to work, with setups that aren't 1 Tank/1 Cleric/1 Bard/5 DPS, especially for leveling.

    >Things that might help now:
    - Rename Tank. In the context of tank/dps/healer/support, having the base class literally named "Tank" reinforces bias. Bruiser/Soldier/Champion, maybe.
    - Have a mirror/counterpart to Grit. Have it increase incoming damage, lower threat, and increase outgoing damage.
    - Give Tanks a short ability path that's higher damage, lower threat/cc/utility.
    - This might be controversial, but drastically lower the penalties to Raid group XP. This could set the game apart from many other MMOs, and allow groups of any size to have fun and grind efficiently.
    [/list]
  • FippyFippy Member, Alpha Two
    Rumlox wrote: »
    In a group, the spell effects from your team often make it impossible to see anything

    I left a suggestion for friendly spell effect sliders for opacity or something because the mages lava field spell effect was completely blocking me from seeing the poison clouds from goblin shamans. Also, I lose my cursor a lot when there's 50,000 spell effects. Sorry casters, but I would turn most of your spell effects off if I could.
  • zxbiohazardzxzxbiohazardzx Member, Alpha Two
    Id argue the tank should not get preferential treatment on the XP Debt, but that when in a group, the XP is shared gains, then any party-member-deaths also entails shared XP Debt (all get the same or distributed similarly) so that the kiters also get it
  • FippyFippy Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 17
    Id argue the tank should not get preferential treatment on the XP Debt, but that when in a group, the XP is shared gains, then any party-member-deaths also entails shared XP Debt (all get the same or distributed similarly) so that the kiters also get it

    It's gotta be something. I grouped for about 6 hours tonight, got two levels, we ran around seph and steelbloom, having never been to either location. Found some great farming spots, had plenty of gear drop for people. But, as I was tanking and I had to figure out all the mechanics up close and personal, and try to pick up random mobs people asspulled, and all the other tankly things we do... I died close to 20 times. I mean, the nearly half a level of EXP debt aside, and me falling behind my peers was one thing, but I literally had to beg them for silver to pay my repair bills. I ended the night with negative income :/

    I mean, humanoid mobs NEVER having money on them doesn't really make sense... Maybe there should be 50/50 coin drops and glint from humanoids. I mean give me SOMETHING to go home with. Sure, wolves 100% glint, but random raiders should have a few coins so at least when I die doing my job I'll be able to repair...
  • Uncommon SenseUncommon Sense Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    This is a copy paste response I made from another thread more or less covering the same issue...with some additions....

    I agree to some extent.

    Tanks get punished most. They typically die the most, so end up falling behind in EXP gain compared to the rest of their group. Which will discourage players from playing tanks and lead to a population imbalance.

    (% numbers are just hypothetical suggestions)

    Something in the Tanks kit needs to mitigate XP Debt for them and preferably the rest of the group. Something like courage/defense stance %50* reduction in personal XPdebt and %25* group reduction XPdebt under tanks 'protection' and only takes effect when in a group.

    I also agree that a cleric rez should restore XPdebt by an additional %25*

    in PVE a player own body recovery should also restore some XP debt and I feel that there should be a death grace period (2min) for example for the player to take the time to return to their dropped loot without concern of loss or time waste making the return trip from an Ember spring.

    If another player chooses to look at the ash pile during that 2 min it will flag PVP if another player then decides to steal the items it will cause corruption.

    I also believe guilds should take a % of all members XPdebt, This will curb mega guilds from forming while also incentivize Guild leaders to pick and choose the members with more scrutiny.

    Those of some of the ideas I have in regards to making XP debt actually promote healthy interactions rather than punish players to the point of losing interest.

    equipment damaged on death remains unchanged.

    So to summertime the XPDebt situation needs to be tailored/adjusted to promote healthy gameplay. Because its current implementation is overwhelmingly unsatisfying and losing player retention/motivation.
  • golovirgolovir Member, Alpha Two
    The biggest improvement i would love to see is just the xp debt being eliminated if you are revived by a cleric. The first time i died and got revived i was shocked to see I still got the xp debt. Every other MMO i've played some or all of the death penalty was negated if you were revived rather than respawning. All reviving does here is either possibly save a fight if the cleric can res the tank before the group wipes, or save you the run back if you don't have a local Emberspring to revive at.
  • RumloxRumlox Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Fippy wrote: »
    I left a suggestion for friendly spell effect sliders for opacity or something because the mages lava field spell effect was completely blocking me from seeing the poison clouds from goblin shamans. Also, I lose my cursor a lot when there's 50,000 spell effects. Sorry casters, but I would turn most of your spell effects off if I could.

    This is not a good solution. The game should not be designed that you have to play with no effects in order to see mechanics. The system needs tweaked so that you can play with the game looking like it is meant to, and still be able to actually see what is going on.
  • FippyFippy Member, Alpha Two
    Rumlox wrote: »
    This is not a good solution. The game should not be designed that you have to play with no effects in order to see mechanics. The system needs tweaked so that you can play with the game looking like it is meant to, and still be able to actually see what is going on.

    To be fair you're not wrong, but I also just want to turn off most spell effects because after 6 hours grinding and having all the spell effects going off, my eyes are tired and I'm overwhelmed by all the sound effects going off too...
  • GerryGerry Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 20
    golovir wrote: »
    The biggest improvement i would love to see is just the xp debt being eliminated if you are revived by a cleric.

    I am in favour of a reduction in the XP penalty for resurrection by a cleric, but without the XP penalty, death loses too much of its meaning.
    Id argue the tank should not get preferential treatment on the XP Debt, but that when in a group, the XP is shared gains, then any party-member-deaths also entails shared XP Debt.

    I fully agree that XP debts should be shared in a group, but there needs to be a mechanism in place to prevent abuse of the system, e.g. the other players in the group can at most reduce the debt by the amount they would lose at their level.
  • OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    It seems that a lot of people are talking about this, i just found https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/1gu6dws/current_huge_disincentive_to_playing_tank/

    The Reddit thread discusses the challenges of playing as a tank. The OP highlights that tanks are often the first to die in group play, especially if party members make mistakes, leading to material and glint loss. This creates a financial and progression disincentive for tank players and could result in a shortage of tanks in the long run.

    Problems Discussed:
    • High Cost of Death: Tanks often suffer the most penalties in party wipes (repair costs, material loss, etc.). Tanks face significant economic drawbacks compared to other classes.
    • Group Dependency: Tanks rely heavily on competent party members. Poor coordination leads to frequent deaths and financial penalties.
    • Lack of Incentives for Helping Others: Tanks are less inclined to help lower-level players due to high repair and material costs.
    • Gear Competition: Tanks often compete with other roles (e.g., healers) for gear, making progression less rewarding. Specially Armor as people can wear whatever they want.
    • Disincentive for New Tank Players: The current system might deter new or casual players from adopting the tank role.
  • OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 20
    Gerry wrote: »
    I am in favour of a reduction in the XP penalty for resurrection by a cleric, but without the XP penalty, death loses too much of its meaning.

    I fully agree that XP debts should be shared in a group, but there needs to be a mechanism in place to prevent abuse of the system, e.g. the other players in the group can at most reduce the debt by the amount they would lose at their level.

    I think you raise a solid point about maintaining the weight of death in gameplay. A reduced penalty for Cleric-assisted resurrections strikes a good balance between rewarding teamwork and preserving the consequences of death. Perhaps scaling the reduction based on group dynamics or the Cleric's level could add another layer of depth ?
  • HighbornHighborn Member, Alpha Two
    I agree with the problems mentioned, but I have no opinion on how to solve it, without making it unfair.
  • OrijinOrijin Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Highborn wrote: »
    I agree with the problems mentioned, but I have no opinion on how to solve it, without making it unfair.

    Replying and raising awareness is enough, no worries. I’m curious—what specifically do you think might make a solution unfair? For instance, would reducing or removing penalties if a Cleric resurrects the tank fall into that category?
  • ShankNemesisShankNemesis Member, Alpha Two
    I agree with a lot of the OP. I have had many concerns about this as I was leveling and taking the brunt of most of the deaths in the group. I also agree with @Apok said, that it is generally the role of the tank to assess the situation and figure out what is happening. Although I can tell you a lot of time it comes from people just getting comfortable during a grind session. Other times, it is exactly what he said, that someone is attacking something unknowingly. I will say that compared to other MMO's there is a VAST amount of gameplay that is being assumed from a lot of people. The most common one I have encountered is the use of wands. They have some type of area targeting mechanic built into their combo that can probably be solved with tweaking some of the targeting settings.

    Either way, I really don't think giving tanks a special discount on dying is the solution, but I very much like the idea of shared exp debt with the group for the tank. Even if its a percentage.

    A bit off topic, but I would say another issue with the tank is that every ability causing agro is self-harming when it comes to PvP. Any of your cleaving abilities or AoE abilities when you have someone trains mobs on you, you pick up and are now having to fight off along with the PvP. Not sure how to solve this aside from stop using half of your abilities in those situations. Either way, I found it frustrating and worth adding to the "Burden of Tanks"
    Shank Nemesis
    Leader of the Knights of Shadowhawk
    e6yd3l14rux9.png
  • BrasidesBrasides Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    As a tank I agree with all the problems around xp debt/repair costs and feeling like you are sweating while many dps could take 5 min break without wiping the party. I'm not sure how much of this is intended to push people to collaborate further and how much is just the death mechanics working as intended.

    I ended up shying away from groups for a while in part because I just didn't have the money to afford repair costs while pugging, and in part because so many people were rolling on gear that could help keep me alive and help the party be more effective. It was just unrewarding to work hard to keep 2-3 mobs of 3-stars pulled at all times while watching their bars for interrupts and trying to be a good tank, then be devalued by the group through gear rolls.

    Things got a lot better after I joined a guild that chose to emphasize gearing tanks first, and in general the group was better organized and less likely to overpull or do stupid stuff that would get me killed while they ran away.

    So many of the mechanics in this game seem too new for many of us who are coming from previous MMOs. This could be one of those problems that just needs some time to brew while the community adjusts by adopting social norms informed by the mechanics.

    Despite my negative experience I'd leave it as is for a while and see how the community adjusts before asking for a change.
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