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Longbow vs Shortbow

SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
Hi,

I decided to remove my previous post about the ranger and write separate posts for bows and for archetype. Over the last weekend, many of my opinions changed after reaching and playing as a level 25 ranger.

The current idea of the longbow having higher physical damage than the short bow seems nice, although I think the damage difference might be a bit too small. The difference between these two bows should be more pronounced. Another issue is that the current critical chance doesn't seem to work correctly; it appears to be lower than what the UI suggests.

The range difference between the short bow and the longbow doesn't seem to be significant enough. Even if the difference was big enough, having a range difference only on basic attacks is irrelevant; skill ranges also need to change with the bow's range. The current range in Ashes is already big, so I don't think increasing the range of a longbow is the solution. Instead, reducing the short bow range to 20-25 meters and reducing mage range to the same distance would fix several issues at the same time.

The short bow is a skirmish weapon that has high DPS; it doesn't fit well to stand on a ledge and snipe people from afar. The same goes for the ranger itself—it's meant for long-range single-target damage. Its range with a longbow should be significantly higher than that of a mage.

In the current iteration, the short bow applies bleed, which removes the decision between concussive and barbed ammo, turning it into a choice between silence and hemorrhage. Also, the short bow has Arrowstorm, which allows for much higher DPS with barrage. Like I said before, the short bow having higher DPS is expected, but I think it needs to be better built around this concept.

Finally, some other ideas are that the longbow might have higher cooldowns in exchange for much higher damage on spells, and the short bow could have lower damage but shorter cooldowns. Or perhaps the longbow could have more damage on attacks and spells the further you are from the enemy. But these ideas need to be evaluated to see if it's a good idea to add them.

Comments

  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
  • LucyusILucyusI Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Hmm, I really like the idea of differentiating between longbows and shortbows like that.
    And would create 2 different "paths" for playing rangers: Long-range slow big damage and fast mobile fast attacking short range.
    Both of them are very rewarding and satisfying.
  • BlankRegBlankReg Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    I did Ranger to 13 and agree with these things but I only used longbow. If short bow had a mobility or camo cooldown advantage that could justify being up close and taking that risk. Also, found the passive skills to be dull and hard to understand. I lost upgraded rolls to people who use bows as offhand and that was disappointing. I also lost rolls to dexterity leather to a Mage. Would like it if they could not use our gear or if there was a failsafe built in. The barrage did seem to be overused and I never noticed the haste increase after my improved Snipe. I watched a duel with a good Ranger lose to a Mage and a Tank and the Ranger had no chance. Losing to the Tank who had 85% health remaining was disappointing. Maybe if the snipe or longbow/arrow glowed when you got into proper extended distance for the increase dmg you could use it more predictably. Also the Regeneration buff seemed to not provide much meaningful regeneration and the base regen was horrible. Actually the mana regen was painful. I could barely notice the Strider skill when I had it but it could just be me. It wasn't all bad, I'm pointing out the bad only atm.
  • ThrakedonsThrakedons Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    I agree with most of this if not all. Especially agree that the range difference should be more noticeable between auto attacks with longbow and shortbow.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Another thought could be to give longbow passive armor pentration of like 10% of something so it be stronger agaist armored enemy but weaker lightly armor enemies compared to shortbow
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Also another issue with long bow is the weapon procs Stagger/Wound dont have any synergy with ranger kit either
    compared to shortbow snare and bleed both work with ranger kit
  • redherringredherring Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Snipe: What I don't understand about Snipe is why it isn't more like the mechanic in scatter shot with the change that the longer your charge snipe, the more power you got (and maybe risk/reward with a wiff or maybe a gauge you attempt to release at the "perfect" time to get max damage).

    Snipe + Walking: With something like that and being able to walk (think barrage), I think that would make that skill A LOT more viable to just "get off" sometimes and other times to open or skill shot.

    Barrage, but full speed: Also, if barrage was a full-speed movement (even if that had to be talented -- and I mean FULL speed sprint movement), then I think a lot of my complaints about Ranger go away.

    Camo: Let me go camo anytime and come out of camo to initiate or proximity based

    Marking Hunts: This has already been solved in WoW. Just let us mark a target until it dies. Please stop making this a weird part of a rotation.

    Long-/Short-bow: Genius suggestions above and agree. That puts it more in-line with something like GW2 bows.

    Synergies: All I see is a bleed and Stun tree for bows. Personally, I am using the stun as I am solo and slowing on auto-attacks keeps my mana and uptime up. I would love to see some of the perks really be more obvious / class combo better. Nothing really seems to stand out and I can't choose the bleed perks unless I am going to farm lower level mobs.

    I think the ranger is close, but really making the Ranger the "master of ranged bows" and make it AT LEAST mobile in everything is does (as it is bow master) would really bring the class to life.
  • LucyusILucyusI Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Marking Hunts: This has already been solved in WoW. Just let us mark a target until it dies. Please stop making this a weird part of a rotation.

    Yes. I want this as well. Make us be able to have just 1 marked target active, but permanently. If I mark another target or use another mark, expire the already applied one.
    Ranger the "master of ranged bows"
    Yeah... Currently, you can't play the ranger with any other weapon. It feels off.
    Other classes have an array of melee weapons at their disposal. But us, we have just bows. So allow us to be the masters of the bows. I am fine with removing the 2nd weapon for the bow and give us something else.
    In idk how many hours I've been "testing" this, I've never even once switched to the secondary weapon as a ranger.
  • redherringredherring Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    As a note, I do have a 2H Great Sword as my "stat stick". I do switch to it when fast moving mobs get close and / or there are multiple of them in small groups. I can "kinda" be a dodge tank and do some AoE for short bursts to give someone overwhelmed a break and then escape with Disengage/Vines/The Flippy Spinny Shot thingy.

    Honestly, I would love if this class would be the only class that had the ability to Long-Bow Primary, Short-Bow secondary. It would give the class something unique and fall inline with "I am the Master of Bows / Movement"
  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 14
    Veeshan wrote: »
    Another thought could be to give longbow passive armor pentration of like 10% of something so it be stronger agaist armored enemy but weaker lightly armor enemies compared to shortbow

    it would make sense, but i would say that shortbow due to being high dps would make sense to be vs tankier opponents, and bursty longbow makes perfect weapon to catch squishy enemies off guard.
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I would like to see things like snipe and headshot be insta cast on the long bow, I don't agree that the short bow should be reduced to 20m when a fighter can charge 30, a short bow ranger is suppose to feel athletic and mobile but having to go almost into melee range to engage does not fit that playstyle
  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    I would like to see things like snipe and headshot be insta cast on the long bow, I don't agree that the short bow should be reduced to 20m when a fighter can charge 30, a short bow ranger is suppose to feel athletic and mobile but having to go almost into melee range to engage does not fit that playstyle

    well, i dont think snipe can be an insta cast, and if so then i think it fits shortbow better to have it insta cast with tradeoffs of it being insta cast. The 20m range was loose value, it should be the same as mage range, maybe 25m and longbow 40? and reduce fighter dash range to accomodate reduction of range. The point is to both create better destinction between longbow and shortbow and move standing on a ledge playstyle more into the longbow, like you said, shortbow is more of a mobile skirmish playstyle, its longbow that stands far away on the ledge, but when you get into his face, will have problems to deal with pressure
  • ChicagoChicago Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Snekkers wrote: »
    Chicago wrote: »
    I would like to see things like snipe and headshot be insta cast on the long bow, I don't agree that the short bow should be reduced to 20m when a fighter can charge 30, a short bow ranger is suppose to feel athletic and mobile but having to go almost into melee range to engage does not fit that playstyle

    well, i dont think snipe can be an insta cast, and if so then i think it fits shortbow better to have it insta cast with tradeoffs of it being insta cast. The 20m range was loose value, it should be the same as mage range, maybe 25m and longbow 40? and reduce fighter dash range to accomodate reduction of range. The point is to both create better destinction between longbow and shortbow and move standing on a ledge playstyle more into the longbow, like you said, shortbow is more of a mobile skirmish playstyle, its longbow that stands far away on the ledge, but when you get into his face, will have problems to deal with pressure

    Yeah you definitely have some good ideas, in my mind I would like to snipe someone from 40 meters on a long bow from a rooftop that only rangers can access or in mass PvP be able to sit at the very back line, maybe make it if snipe crits it resets the CD. For a short bow to be that close and personal with the enemy we needed some sort of a defensive that allows us to get back to our healers, and the ones we have right now don't cut it
  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    Chicago wrote: »
    Snekkers wrote: »
    Chicago wrote: »
    I would like to see things like snipe and headshot be insta cast on the long bow, I don't agree that the short bow should be reduced to 20m when a fighter can charge 30, a short bow ranger is suppose to feel athletic and mobile but having to go almost into melee range to engage does not fit that playstyle

    well, i dont think snipe can be an insta cast, and if so then i think it fits shortbow better to have it insta cast with tradeoffs of it being insta cast. The 20m range was loose value, it should be the same as mage range, maybe 25m and longbow 40? and reduce fighter dash range to accomodate reduction of range. The point is to both create better destinction between longbow and shortbow and move standing on a ledge playstyle more into the longbow, like you said, shortbow is more of a mobile skirmish playstyle, its longbow that stands far away on the ledge, but when you get into his face, will have problems to deal with pressure

    Yeah you definitely have some good ideas, in my mind I would like to snipe someone from 40 meters on a long bow from a rooftop that only rangers can access or in mass PvP be able to sit at the very back line, maybe make it if snipe crits it resets the CD. For a short bow to be that close and personal with the enemy we needed some sort of a defensive that allows us to get back to our healers, and the ones we have right now don't cut it

    ye, there is definitly a lot we can do to capture those 2 fantasies
  • redherringredherring Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 18
    After playing almost all classes until 10, the fact that just auto-attack bow on other classes is pretty damned good makes the ranger feel a lot less... useful?

    Also,
    I lost upgraded rolls to people who use bows as offhand and that was disappointing.

    There are so many instances I have lost rolls (almost all of them) as all other classes can choose gear that rangers need (in the current iteration) that it just drives me insane (and I seem to lose all the rolls).

    Const? Tanks
    Dex bow? Doesn't matter as everyone has a bow and wants a pretty bow
    Bow + Int + Physical + Mana? Yep, not for you!

    I just kinda wish the bow had requirements that Dex/Rangers fulfilled and made them "Ranger" weapons. There are "spell bows". Why not high Dex (heavy pull weight) Warbows or whatnot. Not all of them, just at least something that made them impactful and "for Rangers".

    As to short-/long-, completely agree on a separation. However, looking more than 40 yds right now is a chore as I think pop-in for characters/enemies is REALLY short (at the max range of the long-bow).

    Nice post!
  • Shadow PhoenixShadow Phoenix Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    redherring wrote: »
    Honestly, I would love if this class would be the only class that had the ability to Long-Bow Primary, Short-Bow secondary. It would give the class something unique and fall inline with "I am the Master of Bows / Movement"

    This. Going in to alpha, with the switch weapon mechanic, my first thought was Longbow/Short bow combo. Our primary (first learned) skills don't work with anything buy ranged weapons, so my thought process was Longbow for long range/slower hitting, and switching to Short bow for short range/melee. I was so disappointed when I found out I had to have a melee weapon equipped as a PRIMARY (yeah, every time I log in that's the weapon that shows up).

    My thought process now is to request the ability to have the option to have bow as both primary/secondary, or wait, and hope, to see if the Archetype choice at lvl 25 gives us this option based on the class choice we pick.
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  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    Longbow should simply do bit more ability damage. This alone has a ton of value in pvp - as well as different farming strategies. In general, the auto attack damage per second should be lower - but at the moment it doesn't feel like the added burst is enough to compensate for it.

    As far as complaining about losing loot rolls - everyone loses loot rolls to everyone. You think the fighter feels any better when you need on a greatsword to slap it on your back? Just get used the idea that flexible gearing comes with the drawback(pun intended) that gear priority is not as black and white as other games. I'm having a ton of fun running around with a spell greatsword and a short spellbow on my cleric - and it didn't dawn on me until I rerolled that I could have been trying to play ranger with an energy spellbook or wand
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 19
    redherring wrote: »
    After playing almost all classes until 10, the fact that just auto-attack bow on other classes is pretty damned good makes the ranger feel a lot less... useful?

    Also,
    I lost upgraded rolls to people who use bows as offhand and that was disappointing.

    There are so many instances I have lost rolls (almost all of them) as all other classes can choose gear that rangers need (in the current iteration) that it just drives me insane (and I seem to lose all the rolls).

    Const? Tanks
    Dex bow? Doesn't matter as everyone has a bow and wants a pretty bow
    Bow + Int + Physical + Mana? Yep, not for you!

    I just kinda wish the bow had requirements that Dex/Rangers fulfilled and made them "Ranger" weapons. There are "spell bows". Why not high Dex (heavy pull weight) Warbows or whatnot. Not all of them, just at least something that made them impactful and "for Rangers".

    As to short-/long-, completely agree on a separation. However, looking more than 40 yds right now is a chore as I think pop-in for characters/enemies is REALLY short (at the max range of the long-bow).

    Nice post!

    ive had 5 physical dmg bows drop while in groups 1 went to a ranger (not me) 2 went to mages 1 went to a cleric and the other went to a bard. apparently it need everything to sell kinda game mentality in pugs :P lol
    Will be better when gear drop iws reduced to it intended value and crafting gear becomes the main way to gear since u wont have to worry bout this happening :P
    Still using a white lvl 10 merchant bow cause of apparently everyone needing on everything lol
  • kadimirkadimir Member, Alpha Two
    Veeshan wrote: »
    ive had 5 physical dmg bows drop while in groups 1 went to a ranger (not me) 2 went to mages 1 went to a cleric and the other went to a bard. apparently it need everything to sell kinda game mentality in pugs :P lol
    Will be better when gear drop iws reduced to it intended value and crafting gear becomes the main way to gear since u wont have to worry bout this happening :P
    Still using a white lvl 10 merchant bow cause of apparently everyone needing on everything lol

    Groups I've been in were all very different. 100% pugged, the second someone needed on something stupid they got called out for it and had to give to the next highest roll, and 2nd offense got them removed(and sometimes I'd even flag and smack them around to get them to leave instead of standing there crying in /say). That said, yes - your bow is going to end up needed on by other physical classes - however mages are probably needing on SPELLBOWS which do magic damage and you do not need. I had a few times I had to tell the rangers in my parties to stop needing on spellbows. Likewise, there is also atleast 1 item I saw that was incorrectly labelled a spellbow but had all physical stats.

    Armor is a bigger offender because of the fact that anyone can use anything - sometimes it's just such a big upgrade that theres no reason not to. There's no weapon trees tied to armor and as people progress their weapon trees they will be less likely to need on upgrades that aren't their preferred loadout. I know I pass on anything that's not a great spellsword or great spellbow. I'd like a good book too but I haven't found one, but likely just going to wait and greed for it. almost every group I've been in when someone gets the item they green or pass next time - and I've ended up with many greens this way for different weapons.
  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    As to short-/long-, completely agree on a separation. However, looking more than 40 yds right now is a chore as I think pop-in for characters/enemies is REALLY short (at the max range of the long-bow).

    with low server load render distance is very nice actually, so with dynamic gridding and more improvements in current phase im sure they will handle that issue
  • SnekkersSnekkers Member, Alpha Two
    redherring wrote: »
    Honestly, I would love if this class would be the only class that had the ability to Long-Bow Primary, Short-Bow secondary. It would give the class something unique and fall inline with "I am the Master of Bows / Movement"

    This. Going in to alpha, with the switch weapon mechanic, my first thought was Longbow/Short bow combo. Our primary (first learned) skills don't work with anything buy ranged weapons, so my thought process was Longbow for long range/slower hitting, and switching to Short bow for short range/melee. I was so disappointed when I found out I had to have a melee weapon equipped as a PRIMARY (yeah, every time I log in that's the weapon that shows up).

    My thought process now is to request the ability to have the option to have bow as both primary/secondary, or wait, and hope, to see if the Archetype choice at lvl 25 gives us this option based on the class choice we pick.

    im not a big fan of having both longbow and shortbow, i feel like going longbow or shortbow should be an important decision every ranger has to make, not just pick both
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