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Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Feedback on PVE encounter design
Imnotkio
Member, Alpha Two
A.
Issue
The current group pve design is very static.
Reasoning
There are several encounters in which the tank can just hold aggro and face the monsters away from the rest of the party and no one has to move at all anymore, creating a very static combat scenario. It does not create compelling gameplay and other party members other than tank have no risk of dying. There are a few things that can be done to avoid these scenarios.
Suggestions
1. Add more ranged mobs: That would make it hard for the tank to pull them all into a small area away from all players
2. Give some of these mobs more AoE abilities that can hit a big area around them.
3. Mid-of-combat adds: Ads (like summons) in the middle of combat are spawned with random aggro, making it so they are not instantly glued to the tank and the tank has to work to grab that additional aggro.
4. More balanced threat management: So the tank doesn't hold permanent aggro and the mob can aggro into someone else after a period where the tank has exhausted his big aggro abilities.
5. Smart AI: Mobs with the ability to throw AoE abilities that focus on doing damage on the most number of players, and not on the aggroed player. Also mobs with the ability to do off-aggro skills like debuffs, and CCs (mob focus the CC on healer so he can kill the tank more easily).
B.
Issue
The current hunting spots design encourages staying still in one spot and infinitely pulling mobs
Reasoning
Right now, in most hunting spots, there are issues with mob density/mob respawn timer. In some spots, there are more mobs that you can kill in time for them to respawn. So you kill one, you kill 2, and by the time you're killing the third the first one is respawning. That way, your party doesn't move and does not need to create a rotation around the hunting spot, creating a very static and boring gameplay. You could argue that you could pull more mobs, but that is also discouraged seeing that an extra mob is an actual risk and high probability of wiping the party.
On the flipside, there are some spots in which you pull a big group of mobs, and then kill them all but don't have anything else to kill and you sit around waiting for that group to respawn.
C.
Issue
Some hunting spots feel like they were designed to be a group vs group encounter but you can easily pull them separately.
Reasoning
There are spots where you have enemies like clerics, DPS, and tank-like roles, and they seem like they are designed to be fought together, but being able to pull them one by one completely overrides the intended encounter. That way, you can only pick out the easiest mobs and trivialize the encounter. This issue is also in part because the entire encounter together would be almost a guaranteed wipe with the current encounter design, so it's not worth it trying to pull them all.
D.
Issue
Mob damage output feels like it's either super low or super high, with no in-between.
Reasoning
Right now, fighting mobs, especially in groups fighting 2 and 3 stars, the feeling is that there is almost no damage being done until there is a mechanic that can one-shot you. It's a bad feeling because it has a lot of moments of autopilot gameplay followed by a high-risk moment then back into autopilot.
Suggestions
My suggestion would be to create encounters that stay in the middle most of the time. Not a lot of autopilot, but also not a lot of one-shot mechanics. Mostly constant low/mid pressure on the players, so that they need to keep engaged in the fight but not die from one mistake by a mechanic that comes out of nowhere. Keep the damage constant through mechanics that make you move and react to them by interrupting or soaking or tanks mitigation/cleric high output heals and creating a scenario where a series of mistakes can kill you.
Example: I think the Kumot fight is an almost perfect example of an engaging pve fight that keeps constant pressure on all the group, without resorting to one-shot mechanics. It is the best pve encounter I found on the game yet, and I believe it can be easily replicated into grind spots. Other examples of good mechanics that keep pressure but don't instantly kill you are the Minotaur berserker spin and zombies vomit puddle.
E.
Issue
Hunting spots feel like they are all the same.
Reasoning
I am incredibly in favor of long leveling, and if the core gameplay (combat and pve design) is fun then grinding for hours on end is fun. But, inevitably, it can start feeling stale after a few days. This is the time when you eventually move to another grind spot. And here is the catch: if the other hunting spot feels like you're just doing the exact same thing as the other hunting spot, the feeling of staleness won't go away. Eventually, players will be burned out because every place plays the same.
Suggestions
This game needs diverse hunting spots that feel like you're having a completely different encounter than what you were hunting before. Some spots should be focused on a smaller number of mobs, while others should overwhelm you with numbers. Some spots should feel like you need to be moving all the time to stay alive, while other spots should feel like the challenge is in reacting fast enough to the mob's mechanics and dealing with stuff like cleaning stacks and debuffs, interrupting mob's mechanics and grouping to soak damage. You should also use resistances and immunities to shake things up a bit. If a creature is immune to sleep or immune to being tripped, it can completely change a player's effective rotation and add that feeling of new gameplay. Include the named mobs on the encounter design and not as an isolated encounter in the middle of a hunting spot. I believe every hunting spot should be treated as a mini-boss encounter, with different mechanics and challenges. Keep the gameplay fresh and the players who like the grind gameplay will never feel burned out on the grind no matter how long it is.
Additional note: Just keep in mind that MMO players are 100% about efficiency. If you design a bunch of diverse and engaging encounters, but miss on the balance and make a bad and boring encounter super worth it, players will do that bad encounter until oblivion and then will complain the game's pve is bad.
F.
Issue
The majority of mob mechanics are really hard to notice and react to.
Reasoning
Most of the time is just damage that you take and the healer deals with it. Ideally, the pve encounter becomes more readable and you can increase the lethality of these mechanics so players have to react and defend against them, and not just tank it.
G.
Issue
The star system doesn't properly represent encounter difficulty.
Reasoning
From my understanding, the star system is used to represent the encounter's difficulty. At the moment, from my experience, general feeling:
0* is an easy encounter for solo players
1* is a harder encounter for solo players or can be used for small groups to do big aoe pulls at a somewhat easy difficulty
2* can be either a challenge for solos or can be used for big groups to do big aoe pulls at a somewhat easy difficulty
3* For full groups, pull 1~2 at a time at a somewhat easy difficulty with the eventual one shot mechanic.
My issue with this is that it seems that the star system indicates group size more than difficulty. There are 3* mobs that present less threat than some 2* mobs, and then there are 3* mobs that are way harder than other 3* mobs. Some 3* mobs just feel like they are damage sponges and present no threat. Also, higher star mobs don't feel like they are designed differently than low star mobs. Most mob encounters feel like they were designed to fight a solo player, and once you introduce a tank holding the aggro, it gets trivialized. Others feel like it's impossible to kill. But most of the time I would say with a full party, most 3* pve encounters get trivialized aside from the eventual big burst damage.
Suggestions
I would like to see a star system where you would more easily be able to distinguish between challenges and group size.
For instance:
0*: easier encounter for solos
1*: harder encounter for solos
2*: easier encounter for groups
3*: harder encounter for groups
And then design encounters (mechanics, mob density, ability to pull isolated mobs or pack tactics, etc) and rewards based on that. You could have 3* mobs that are designed to be a 3* challenge by themselves, or 3* mobs that are designed to be fought together, composing a 3* challenge as a group, and creating the inability to pull them one at a time. Also, each star above should be more mechanics-heavy than the star before. 2* and 3* encounters should be designed to threaten the entire group, and not just the tank, while 0* and 1* encounters are fine being heavily focused on a single player being the center of the mob's attention.
Issue
The current group pve design is very static.
Reasoning
There are several encounters in which the tank can just hold aggro and face the monsters away from the rest of the party and no one has to move at all anymore, creating a very static combat scenario. It does not create compelling gameplay and other party members other than tank have no risk of dying. There are a few things that can be done to avoid these scenarios.
Suggestions
1. Add more ranged mobs: That would make it hard for the tank to pull them all into a small area away from all players
2. Give some of these mobs more AoE abilities that can hit a big area around them.
3. Mid-of-combat adds: Ads (like summons) in the middle of combat are spawned with random aggro, making it so they are not instantly glued to the tank and the tank has to work to grab that additional aggro.
4. More balanced threat management: So the tank doesn't hold permanent aggro and the mob can aggro into someone else after a period where the tank has exhausted his big aggro abilities.
5. Smart AI: Mobs with the ability to throw AoE abilities that focus on doing damage on the most number of players, and not on the aggroed player. Also mobs with the ability to do off-aggro skills like debuffs, and CCs (mob focus the CC on healer so he can kill the tank more easily).
B.
Issue
The current hunting spots design encourages staying still in one spot and infinitely pulling mobs
Reasoning
Right now, in most hunting spots, there are issues with mob density/mob respawn timer. In some spots, there are more mobs that you can kill in time for them to respawn. So you kill one, you kill 2, and by the time you're killing the third the first one is respawning. That way, your party doesn't move and does not need to create a rotation around the hunting spot, creating a very static and boring gameplay. You could argue that you could pull more mobs, but that is also discouraged seeing that an extra mob is an actual risk and high probability of wiping the party.
On the flipside, there are some spots in which you pull a big group of mobs, and then kill them all but don't have anything else to kill and you sit around waiting for that group to respawn.
C.
Issue
Some hunting spots feel like they were designed to be a group vs group encounter but you can easily pull them separately.
Reasoning
There are spots where you have enemies like clerics, DPS, and tank-like roles, and they seem like they are designed to be fought together, but being able to pull them one by one completely overrides the intended encounter. That way, you can only pick out the easiest mobs and trivialize the encounter. This issue is also in part because the entire encounter together would be almost a guaranteed wipe with the current encounter design, so it's not worth it trying to pull them all.
D.
Issue
Mob damage output feels like it's either super low or super high, with no in-between.
Reasoning
Right now, fighting mobs, especially in groups fighting 2 and 3 stars, the feeling is that there is almost no damage being done until there is a mechanic that can one-shot you. It's a bad feeling because it has a lot of moments of autopilot gameplay followed by a high-risk moment then back into autopilot.
Suggestions
My suggestion would be to create encounters that stay in the middle most of the time. Not a lot of autopilot, but also not a lot of one-shot mechanics. Mostly constant low/mid pressure on the players, so that they need to keep engaged in the fight but not die from one mistake by a mechanic that comes out of nowhere. Keep the damage constant through mechanics that make you move and react to them by interrupting or soaking or tanks mitigation/cleric high output heals and creating a scenario where a series of mistakes can kill you.
Example: I think the Kumot fight is an almost perfect example of an engaging pve fight that keeps constant pressure on all the group, without resorting to one-shot mechanics. It is the best pve encounter I found on the game yet, and I believe it can be easily replicated into grind spots. Other examples of good mechanics that keep pressure but don't instantly kill you are the Minotaur berserker spin and zombies vomit puddle.
E.
Issue
Hunting spots feel like they are all the same.
Reasoning
I am incredibly in favor of long leveling, and if the core gameplay (combat and pve design) is fun then grinding for hours on end is fun. But, inevitably, it can start feeling stale after a few days. This is the time when you eventually move to another grind spot. And here is the catch: if the other hunting spot feels like you're just doing the exact same thing as the other hunting spot, the feeling of staleness won't go away. Eventually, players will be burned out because every place plays the same.
Suggestions
This game needs diverse hunting spots that feel like you're having a completely different encounter than what you were hunting before. Some spots should be focused on a smaller number of mobs, while others should overwhelm you with numbers. Some spots should feel like you need to be moving all the time to stay alive, while other spots should feel like the challenge is in reacting fast enough to the mob's mechanics and dealing with stuff like cleaning stacks and debuffs, interrupting mob's mechanics and grouping to soak damage. You should also use resistances and immunities to shake things up a bit. If a creature is immune to sleep or immune to being tripped, it can completely change a player's effective rotation and add that feeling of new gameplay. Include the named mobs on the encounter design and not as an isolated encounter in the middle of a hunting spot. I believe every hunting spot should be treated as a mini-boss encounter, with different mechanics and challenges. Keep the gameplay fresh and the players who like the grind gameplay will never feel burned out on the grind no matter how long it is.
Additional note: Just keep in mind that MMO players are 100% about efficiency. If you design a bunch of diverse and engaging encounters, but miss on the balance and make a bad and boring encounter super worth it, players will do that bad encounter until oblivion and then will complain the game's pve is bad.
F.
Issue
The majority of mob mechanics are really hard to notice and react to.
Reasoning
Most of the time is just damage that you take and the healer deals with it. Ideally, the pve encounter becomes more readable and you can increase the lethality of these mechanics so players have to react and defend against them, and not just tank it.
G.
Issue
The star system doesn't properly represent encounter difficulty.
Reasoning
From my understanding, the star system is used to represent the encounter's difficulty. At the moment, from my experience, general feeling:
0* is an easy encounter for solo players
1* is a harder encounter for solo players or can be used for small groups to do big aoe pulls at a somewhat easy difficulty
2* can be either a challenge for solos or can be used for big groups to do big aoe pulls at a somewhat easy difficulty
3* For full groups, pull 1~2 at a time at a somewhat easy difficulty with the eventual one shot mechanic.
My issue with this is that it seems that the star system indicates group size more than difficulty. There are 3* mobs that present less threat than some 2* mobs, and then there are 3* mobs that are way harder than other 3* mobs. Some 3* mobs just feel like they are damage sponges and present no threat. Also, higher star mobs don't feel like they are designed differently than low star mobs. Most mob encounters feel like they were designed to fight a solo player, and once you introduce a tank holding the aggro, it gets trivialized. Others feel like it's impossible to kill. But most of the time I would say with a full party, most 3* pve encounters get trivialized aside from the eventual big burst damage.
Suggestions
I would like to see a star system where you would more easily be able to distinguish between challenges and group size.
For instance:
0*: easier encounter for solos
1*: harder encounter for solos
2*: easier encounter for groups
3*: harder encounter for groups
And then design encounters (mechanics, mob density, ability to pull isolated mobs or pack tactics, etc) and rewards based on that. You could have 3* mobs that are designed to be a 3* challenge by themselves, or 3* mobs that are designed to be fought together, composing a 3* challenge as a group, and creating the inability to pull them one at a time. Also, each star above should be more mechanics-heavy than the star before. 2* and 3* encounters should be designed to threaten the entire group, and not just the tank, while 0* and 1* encounters are fine being heavily focused on a single player being the center of the mob's attention.
4
Comments
Depth
As a Tank I honestly hate fighting the ranged-only mobs because they constantly back away so I do not like Suggestion 1 lol, and I already get into situations of Aggro being stolen from me from time to time so I'm not sure I'm a fan of Suggestion 4 either.
2 and 3 I've already seen with some mobs like the Thaumaturge who will fling out pools of poison at random party members other than the Tank who has Aggro.
B. I'd rather have respawns that are bit too long than respawns that are a bit too short. If they're too short then the squishies in my party will get wiped as I'm still dealing with mobs up front, but if they're too long all I'm forced to do is either come back to this spot with a smaller party or extend my party's grind rotation.
C. Agreed, not sure how to fix other than making most content a lot harder by making it much easier to pull whole groups.
D. Definitely agreed, as a Tank I feel this the most. Either I barely break a sweat because the damage is so easily healed by my Cleric, or my heart is racing because I my HP is just spiking up and down extremely. There really doesn't seem to be much middle ground with mob DPS.
E. Agreed.
F. Agreed, having to explain to people to dodge the red blood mist spell from Fanatics/Seekers/Bloodblades while there's tons of friendly party effects going on is hilariously useless.
G. Agreed, I'd really like to see the stars represent group sizes too.
I'll tend to the flame, you can worship the ashes.
I was expecting EQ/Lineage Design combat - trying to pull more than 3-4 = party wipe and not have it be an AOE grind fest. Give me dark souls level of difficulty with mobs.
Would love to see 4-5 groups outside of Oaken Keep and like 10-15 groups inside because you be batshit crazy trying to pull 8-15 mobs at once.
an old EQ player can only dream tho.
I wouldn't say B solves A. A is an issue with players being static during the encounter and B is more of an issue with players not having to move between encounters.
That being said mobs had a 5+ minute respawn in older games so u had to pull mobs from further away than killing constant respawns however the faster respawns might be due to leashing actualy does exist still where in Everquest it didnt so they had to speed up respawns to accommodate the group camping in spots since u can no longer pull as far away as u could in the older games that used this mechanic
I personanly prefer the camping mechanic of the older game set up in a spot and u had a dps (typically ranger) pull mobs to the group and the tank would pick up agro as it came in and you would just go chain pull as the dps would fetch another mob when the first one got low.
C- i agree atm there some skills like taunt/chain pull that seems to only agro one mob in the group it doesnt initiate agro on the other in the group for some reason. Direct dmg like bow shot would ago them but some skills seem to bipass this
D - I think the reason for this is the way armor works, most tanks stack plate unfortuetly plate has like 0 magic resist so a mage mobs agro will hit like a truck :P which is fine tbh means u need 2 be carful with those mobs they typicaly die faster as a side efect so there glass cannons other are the opposite are basicly tank, low dmg giant hp pools the low dmg mosb tend to CC alot more than the other aswell so there more dangerous in a group
The 2 things that bother me the most are:
1. The overly static feeling of group fights in PvE
2. A lot of the beautiful character and world design gets lost due to most monsters and spots not being worth spending time farming there
Yeah, I don't have a problem with it necessarily, but I do think right now pve feels very static for my taste. Maybe if the encounter in itself were more mobile I wouldn't have much of a problem with this way of pulling mobs.
Maybe a mix of going to an area, pulling mobs for a time, and then finding another area and pulling there and repeating would be a good compromise