Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Comments
Because lineage II is 0 skill all wealth. Was a fun grinder and the potential of getting ganked added to it, but let's be real, there are no big plays being made in L2, sorry. Doesn't mean you couldn't, just means it wasn't my focus playing it.
I'd argue wildstars PvP was a lot more accessible though, more forgiving. The skillgap in tera at upper levels basically means the first person to make a mistake gets starched in a 1v1. You could have a player who's like 95% as good as you and you would beat them with barely getting touched. That said, no reason to focus hard on those games, AoC will never have combat like them(and no games coming out do?)
PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
I mentioned the structure of TERAs combat, you missed it or deliberately ignored it. The "how" TERA was designed... TTK can always be tweaked, that's just numbers, but the structure and design of the combat system is what I actually stated. Along with Predecessors..
That along with the kits of Ashes would make for a better combat experience. I was incredibly concise and didn't leave room for much misinterpretation, I don't know how you managed to confused "structure" with "TTK in TERA".
What I said was concise and didn't leave much room for misinterpretation.
Start there, first. Before you talk about TERAs TTK when I never mentioned TERAs TTK. Or prattle on about "offering nothing of substance".
Okay so let's review your first post.
So basically you make a bunch of broad statements and then name drop TERA in the context that its a supportive statement, which you are now trying to say that TERA wasn't brought up for its TTK now that you got called out on it.
You should focus on writing clear coherent thoughts on literally the topic, rather than typing cringe like "strategical acumen" in a shallow attempt to seem like you know what you're talking about. Then maybe you wouldn't be trying to reframe why you brought up TERA in a thread about TTK while also saying short TTK is for "ungabunga players".
I'm waiting for you to actually support a single thing you say, one ungabunga player to another.
I don't know how you confused this thread for "combat structure". Before you talk about "combat structure" why dont you pay a little attention to the actual thread.
PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
I see why you have replied, you're stuck on the first sentence. It makes sense seeing your disposition and dismissiveness towards others in this thread.
Once you manage to work past that we can actually address the other statements.
Blown past falling sands…
there absolutely is time for counter play, outside of some of the silly mage burst which no one here is arguing for someone to die in 3 globals. If you can't deal with ~10 second TTK then here is the list of problems
1.) You paid no attention to your surroundings, then you've never played a game where grinding isn't safe. Either learn or move on, these players WILL get the jump on you, but that should only cost you 1-2 GCDs in the grand scheme of things.
2.) If it takes 3+ attacks for you to realize someone is hitting you, then you don't deserve the extra time counter playing anyways - you were going to lose, pop everything you can and try to run to maybe reset.
I think the ideal TTK is between 8 and 10 seconds, but I even listed the dangers of 10 second TTKs. 8-10 seconds means in real life you're probably going to have a 20-40 second fight - 8-10 seconds TTK is only if you're standing still and just dpsing each other as fast as you can, but any actual kiting/CC/CD management is going to see longer than this.
People were asking for 20+ second TTKs around these forums like they have any idea how terrible that experience would be for anyone with 6 braincells. I explained exactly why high TTKs cause a ripple of problems that turn into PvE tug-o-wars - which suprisingly, makes gear matter even more than picking your 8-10 seconds worth of skill choices
That said, I'm done bothering unless someone wants to actually show the napkin math of what their vision of TTK should look like - I've done the lords' work here on this topic. My delivery is that of smugness - as if my opinion is fact, but I'll stand by my 'opinion' that it is fact here. I've seen the full gambit of TTKs and I've seen how devs try to fix them, I've seen when players were actually engaged and PvP was interesting - and I've seen times that you might as well be fighting a boss instead of a player, and I've seen times that you had no chance to even see what was hitting you before you were dead. 7-10 seconds is actually fast paced and fun, in fact I looked at videos from games that are/were fun and that's how I came to the approximation of 8-10 seconds. If noboby else is actually going to take the time to make an informed opinion and support it, then I have no reason to value it, and I hope I make the case for the sake of the rest of this players in this game that the devs' will hopefully find my side of the argument more appealing and thought out than random players being reactionary because they died in a game that they don't even know how to play yet.(None of us truly do)
PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
That means that it was 'pitched' as being closer to what Predecessor is now, from the beginning. I've definitely heard from people who think that game is too slow, and those people should express their opinion, but it's not like fans of Predecessor/TL 1v1/That Period Where TERA TTK was good, don't have a reason for their expectation.
Intrepid originally told us we were going to get that style/direction of game, so when they go away from that, we tell them they're going away from it.
EDIT: Also, that Healer Tug of War thing happens almost entirely because of bad Healing design, which nearly no modern game has. Ashes could definitely manage to do better TTK without it becoming a total healing-slog. We shouldn't expect that outcome just because overall TTK is high. Healing can have long cooldowns/be limited too, and any game with 'way too much healing on one character over a long time' is exactly the game where healing limits/Cauterize/whatever they wanna call it shines.
The math is pretty simple. You seem to misunderstand what people mean by TTK.
A DPS going all in to kill an AFK DPS of the same level and same gear lasting around 10~20 seconds sounds fine, but that's not short TTK at all. When people talk about TTK lasting from 30 seconds to a minute people are not talking about killing AFK players. When Steven says TTK is 10 seconds, it means 2 DPS actively dueling, and not damage/hp ratio. A 10-second TTK means a DPS will kill an AFK player in 3 or 4 abilities. Right now it takes probably 3~5 seconds to kill an AFK player.
10~20 seconds to kill an AFK player doesn't necessarily mean TTK is much higher than that. All you do is guarantee a floor. A floor of 10~20 seconds with TTK around 30s-1min sounds like a good starting point. Fights last at least around 10~20 seconds. By adding mechanics and counterbalances, you can make so TTK remain only slightly higher than that for skilled players that know how to play. You add healing? you add anti-healing debuffs. You add mobility? you add CCs, and then CC breaks. You add damage mitigation and damage mitigation reduction. In the end, fights don't go much higher than the time to kill an AFK player. As you increase the number of participants, those TTK numbers tend to go down for coordinated groups and up for low-skill players.
Even for fights as small as 8v8 a game with high TTK can easily have people die within 10 seconds if a party properly coordinates debuffs ccs and damage. For fights as big as raids v raids, which are the most common engagements in this type of game, people can disappear in seconds with proper coordination. The difference between high TTK and low TTK is that in high TTK you need coordination and proper application of the combat's mechanics to do it, while in low TTK you only need to be the first to smash your head into the keyboard to do it.
And it doesn't matter if 3v3 arenas or similar types of instanced matchmaking content sucks because of it. What is important is the main systems function, like caravans, group vs group combat, node and castle sieges, and node and guild wars, which all involve more than 8v8 gameplay.
Also any game that it takes 20 seconds to kill an afk player should be deleted
PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
Chill out, just about every post I have seen you commenting in you seem to be super hostile for no reason. Just argue your point.
And as far as what Steven has stated, here you go. The wiki is a very good source for info. Not to mention talking to some of the devs in game, they seem to have a concern about TTK being too quick.
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Time_to_kill
I know you have no intention of discussing this and are only here to yell that you are right and your way is better, but for the rest of the people reading this, I'll leave you the quote and let you reader decide what Steven really meant when he told us what the 1v1 duel TTK is intended:
"Q: What is the intended time-to-kill in both 1v1 or group PvP scenarios?
A: If I were to say average TTK between same level characters and average gear score, I would say that we're probably talking anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds upwards of 30 seconds, depending on the archetype. So, obviously the more restorative archetypes, like a Cleric or whatever, might be able to last longer, or a Tank might be able to last longer if they're facing another Tank or if they're facing another Cleric. Then it's going to be a 'whiffle bat fest' or something. And then, if you're talking about two DPS against each other, that's going to be real fast. So I would say that's generally the intent."
So if you think he is actually talking here about hitting an AFK player, then fine. But from my years of listening and reasoning and common sense, I would disagree lol.
The truth is you're the only one yelling at the clouds here as the overwhelming majority seems to agree with my original post based on logical reasoning and past experiences.
If your experience is based on some badly implemented game, or if you are a PUG instanced arena player, or if you just play at such low-level gameplay that your groups can't kill a person in a high TTK game if they don't run out of mana, I don't know. But you seem to have a vastly different opinion than most actual PVP MMO players present here.
1)Tera and Predecessor combat structure is better suited for Ashes for several reasons, one the combat has more restrictions and requires more eye to hand coordination and accuracy in landing abilities. The more restrictive and higher requirements it is to land abilities successfully via player and not waterfall statistics, the higher the TTK will go. Putting more emphasis on position, movement, placement, instead of relying so heavily on waterfall stats. The more player skill required, the higher the TTK goes up. Right now Tank is the most hybrid archetype followed by the Fighter, the rest are just tab and that needs to change, neither TERA or Predecessor are pure action, they’re fairly balanced and the archetypes would fit better. A1 is not balanced in terms of a hybrid style, it’s primarily tab.
2)Collision Detection in players and projectiles is one of the best things ever stated for the combat and should be the case for every projectile in the game, there’s absolutely no reason for it not to be. It puts more emphasis on movement, placement, positioning, etc. Things that up the TTK and the tactical and strategical acumen in largescale PvP.
3) AoEs need to be addressed, I know there’s supposedly a “diminishing return” to the effectiveness of AoEs, but we will see if that actually handles the problem.
4)The most important piece of the puzzle, there are 8 archetypes and 64 classes, in the current TTK will just have players stack more Clerics. So instead of a team truly being balanced in 1 of each archetype, it’ll be balanced around a tank, two clerics, a bard, a mage, and maybe a ranger, summoner, or rogue. Low TTK has resulted in the stacking of healers. A proper varied TTK will hopefully result in the balanced team composition Steven hopes to achieve.
There are no diverse and effective sets of playstyles so as long as companies cater to Ungabunga Players, I get it, the “YUUUUUGE DAMAGE” crowd gets that rush of dopamine, but they’re a literal dime a dozen to find. Mageball Cleave Ballzerg and Big Crit Ungabunga metas are an actual scourge to successful and meaningful PvP.
At 64 classes theres a litany of ways to make interesting playstyles that all should have their impact on the battlefield, but if DPSing is mechanically easy, we’re gonna just see more of the same shit we’ve seen for the last 20 years in most of the titles. Low acumen games with nothing to offer but big numbers.
.
So for example wow arena tournaments that nobody dies until the healing debuff stacks to like 50% must be unorganized pugs. Imagine having that opinion.
Qouting Steven was a little odd as he was on the same page as me there, it's people asking for even longer ttk than intended I have a problem with.
PvE focused: WoW / FFXIV / Lineage II
Sandbox: Ultima Online / Darkfall / Mortal Online
Big Influence: SNES Fighting games / Starcraft / Diablo II / Smite
one-shotting is a no go