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Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
Phase I of Alpha Two testing will occur on weekends. Each weekend is scheduled to start on Fridays at 10 AM PT and end on Sundays at 10 PM PT. Find out more here.
Check out Alpha Two Announcements here to see the latest Alpha Two news and update notes.
Our quickest Alpha Two updates are in Discord. Testers with Alpha Two access can chat in Alpha Two channels by connecting your Discord and Intrepid accounts here.
The Underlying Problem with Ashes Character Creation
Urgrosh
Member
Hi all, I haven't made a post in a while as my following of the development slowed down to just tuning in for monthly livestreams... and sometimes, not even that. I am the type of player that has an extreme interest in the aesthetic of playable npcs, and in particular, how their aesthetic portrays a type of role or idea. After all, as Concord showed us, much of character design is based around conveying a characters personality or "vibe." The last post I made on here was somewhere around the time of the character creator livestream, back when we mostly had only concept art renditions of the playable races. My post wasn't extremely successful at the time, although those who commented agreed with me that there was a common trend among the characters of extremely prominent cheekbones. I found it strange that every single character should share this one feature. Fast-forward to now, and what I found troubling back then is now creating what I believe to be the main problem players have with the Ashes characters... plus a couple of other things.
To begin my extremely long, rant essay, I will state that I do believe the concepting and ideas for races are pointed in a good direction. While my previous point about the extreme prevalence of gaunt, cheekboned character races could be seen as an issue, it could also be seen as a defining characteristic. A defining characteristic of all the races like their insanely gaunt cheeks could indeed be an important part of ashes that keys players into what game they are actually looking at, per an Asmongold take on art style in videogames. I would also argue that per a Tolkien-like, fantasy setting, gaunt cheekbones with respect to dwarves, elves and orcs are to be expected. World of Warcraft for example, has gaunt orcs, gaunt elves, and gaunt dwarves, all characterized by their high and prominent cheekbones.
Beautiful Orc
Cinematic Blood Elf
While one might be blatantly against World of Warcraft as a game, I believe it is extremely successful in capturing a Tolkien-esque fantasy look. By creating this trend of gauntly-faced heroes, Ashes is actually following a tradition of sorts in high fantasy and mmo gaming. Also, hot people have high cheekbones.
Of the character art that I have seen in Ashes up to this point, I believe everything that has connected with me and my personal hopes for the game have been made by Emmanuel Gonzales. His recent work on the Kaelar male and female I found promising not only because these two people don't look like skin on bones, but also because of their marked resemblance to the Warcraft human. The male concept here is strikingly similar to the Warcraft 3 peasant.
Impressive Kaelar concept art
Blast from the past Warcraft human
Honestly, I'll be biased here and say that I wouldn't mind a blatant rip-off in this regard. If Intrepid went and made Kaelar humans an up-scaled version of the World of Warcraft human, I would not complain one bit.
Gonzales's most successful concept however, and the one that translated best onto an in-game model has been the Py'rai male.
Sexy Py'rai male
The gauntness of the character's face works extremely well here, as he exemplifies the archetypal elf as seen in Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls. Even here however, I think we can see just how prominent his cheekbones are, and just how cavernous his cheeks. I believe there is a level of artistic liberty that is awarded to more cartoonish games like WoW or Wildstar that can't be given to a game with such high character fidelity like Ashes. The level of gauntness prevalent in every single character in this game is beyond realistic proportions.
WTF Kaelar male in character creator
This image, for example, is not only gaunt but also has cheekbones reaching out trying to touch the player.
I do think that Intrepid has tried to alleviate these issues however, seeing as the recent Kaelar male we have seen in-game has a level of fat on his face.
Very acceptable Kaelar male
Up until now though, I hope you will have noticed a trend. I have only talked about the male characters of Ashes of creation. At the same time, I've been mostly positive on how I feel about their direction. This is because the opposite sex is where I believe the true problem lies and also why I am making this post in the first place. Over the entirety of its lifetime as a company, Intrepid has had no fucking idea what a woman looks like. They definitely have ideas, and many of the body meshes prove that, but in terms of the facial structure of a human woman... they simply do not know.
Alpha 1 female
Alpha 2 female
Most recent alpha 2 female, from current character creator
To me, these iterations of the Kaelar female are absolutely terrible. What seems to stand out are the lips, looking like they were hit with a pint of botox, and the jaw, which doesn't exist. Don't get me started on the weird, buggy blue eyes. Intrepid seems to be going for this strange doll-like effect, where the women have extremely large eyes and cheeks, akin to babies, and then their features soften and diminish as you go down the face. That isn't to say that we can't have these things, but they need to justify themselves as seen in reality.
What I found in another forum post talking about the aesthetics of women in Ashes was that some players were afraid that women looked too much like men, mainly because of their "lack of hips" and more prominent bone structures. While I can't talk on the overall lack of hips, I will say that the focus on prominent bone structure as making someone look more like a man is completely unfounded. What I believe they were truly afraid of in this instance was what I have touched on before in this post: cavernous cheeks in congruence with high, prominent cheekbones.
In the real world, there are a great deal of differences that distinguish men from women and vice-versa. While I believe Intrepid has achieved most of these qualities, I think some of them have been misconstrued through either feedback from the player-base or from within the company. I believe Intrepid believes that reduced or receding jawlines are an aspect of the female aesthetic. This is not true. Women might have smaller or less pronounced chins than men, but the Western beauty standard for women is strong, prominent bone structure. Not only this, but women also have a naturally higher body fat percentage than men. Fat in the face covers features and makes them less prominent, and this is not apparent in the designs that Intrepid has made. It seems that their designs actually present the opposite reality, with the large, pursed lips of the Kaelar female being a result of an overly skinny face. While gaunt features are excusable for male characters in this game, this should not be the exact same for women.
I think two examples that we can draw from in the real world are Margot Robbie and Ana de Armas. Both are interesting because they display a different spectrum of the Western beauty standard.
Ana de Armas seems strikingly similar to the Kaelar example I've presented. She has that "doll" aesthetic with the large eyes, wide face and big cheeks. But what helps distinguish her from the kaelar female is an actual jaw and facial fat. Her cheekbones are not popping out awkwardly from within her skin.
On the other hand, I want to debunk some of the theories from some forum posters about jaws and bone structure making women more "masculine." Margot Robbie is another example of a woman fitting the Western beauty standard. She has very prominent bone structure with large cheekbones.
The same elements are present here: large eyes, high cheekbones, and facial fat. There's no cavern where her cheeks should be. She isn't famished. Additionally, her jawline is so incredibly sharp. Don't listen to these guys. Don't give women recessed jawlines.
Py'rai female uncanny valley
This old Py'rai female concept looks good, but something's off... I would say it's the lack of a jaw.
In conclusion, we all need to listen to Emmanuel Gonzales. This guy seems to me to be making extremely good concepts for the Ashes character races. He grounds his concepts in earlier fantasy concepts, and I think that is incredibly valid. Give me Lord of the Rings, give me World of Warcraft. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, just give me someone that isn't a walking skeleton. The cheekbones are excusable, but ground it for the love of god. And let women have jawlines!
Gonzales Empyrean concept
Give me this Thranduil rip-off and we're chilling.
To begin my extremely long, rant essay, I will state that I do believe the concepting and ideas for races are pointed in a good direction. While my previous point about the extreme prevalence of gaunt, cheekboned character races could be seen as an issue, it could also be seen as a defining characteristic. A defining characteristic of all the races like their insanely gaunt cheeks could indeed be an important part of ashes that keys players into what game they are actually looking at, per an Asmongold take on art style in videogames. I would also argue that per a Tolkien-like, fantasy setting, gaunt cheekbones with respect to dwarves, elves and orcs are to be expected. World of Warcraft for example, has gaunt orcs, gaunt elves, and gaunt dwarves, all characterized by their high and prominent cheekbones.
Beautiful Orc
Cinematic Blood Elf
While one might be blatantly against World of Warcraft as a game, I believe it is extremely successful in capturing a Tolkien-esque fantasy look. By creating this trend of gauntly-faced heroes, Ashes is actually following a tradition of sorts in high fantasy and mmo gaming. Also, hot people have high cheekbones.
Of the character art that I have seen in Ashes up to this point, I believe everything that has connected with me and my personal hopes for the game have been made by Emmanuel Gonzales. His recent work on the Kaelar male and female I found promising not only because these two people don't look like skin on bones, but also because of their marked resemblance to the Warcraft human. The male concept here is strikingly similar to the Warcraft 3 peasant.
Impressive Kaelar concept art
Blast from the past Warcraft human
Honestly, I'll be biased here and say that I wouldn't mind a blatant rip-off in this regard. If Intrepid went and made Kaelar humans an up-scaled version of the World of Warcraft human, I would not complain one bit.
Gonzales's most successful concept however, and the one that translated best onto an in-game model has been the Py'rai male.
Sexy Py'rai male
The gauntness of the character's face works extremely well here, as he exemplifies the archetypal elf as seen in Warcraft or the Elder Scrolls. Even here however, I think we can see just how prominent his cheekbones are, and just how cavernous his cheeks. I believe there is a level of artistic liberty that is awarded to more cartoonish games like WoW or Wildstar that can't be given to a game with such high character fidelity like Ashes. The level of gauntness prevalent in every single character in this game is beyond realistic proportions.
WTF Kaelar male in character creator
This image, for example, is not only gaunt but also has cheekbones reaching out trying to touch the player.
I do think that Intrepid has tried to alleviate these issues however, seeing as the recent Kaelar male we have seen in-game has a level of fat on his face.
Very acceptable Kaelar male
Up until now though, I hope you will have noticed a trend. I have only talked about the male characters of Ashes of creation. At the same time, I've been mostly positive on how I feel about their direction. This is because the opposite sex is where I believe the true problem lies and also why I am making this post in the first place. Over the entirety of its lifetime as a company, Intrepid has had no fucking idea what a woman looks like. They definitely have ideas, and many of the body meshes prove that, but in terms of the facial structure of a human woman... they simply do not know.
Alpha 1 female
Alpha 2 female
Most recent alpha 2 female, from current character creator
To me, these iterations of the Kaelar female are absolutely terrible. What seems to stand out are the lips, looking like they were hit with a pint of botox, and the jaw, which doesn't exist. Don't get me started on the weird, buggy blue eyes. Intrepid seems to be going for this strange doll-like effect, where the women have extremely large eyes and cheeks, akin to babies, and then their features soften and diminish as you go down the face. That isn't to say that we can't have these things, but they need to justify themselves as seen in reality.
What I found in another forum post talking about the aesthetics of women in Ashes was that some players were afraid that women looked too much like men, mainly because of their "lack of hips" and more prominent bone structures. While I can't talk on the overall lack of hips, I will say that the focus on prominent bone structure as making someone look more like a man is completely unfounded. What I believe they were truly afraid of in this instance was what I have touched on before in this post: cavernous cheeks in congruence with high, prominent cheekbones.
In the real world, there are a great deal of differences that distinguish men from women and vice-versa. While I believe Intrepid has achieved most of these qualities, I think some of them have been misconstrued through either feedback from the player-base or from within the company. I believe Intrepid believes that reduced or receding jawlines are an aspect of the female aesthetic. This is not true. Women might have smaller or less pronounced chins than men, but the Western beauty standard for women is strong, prominent bone structure. Not only this, but women also have a naturally higher body fat percentage than men. Fat in the face covers features and makes them less prominent, and this is not apparent in the designs that Intrepid has made. It seems that their designs actually present the opposite reality, with the large, pursed lips of the Kaelar female being a result of an overly skinny face. While gaunt features are excusable for male characters in this game, this should not be the exact same for women.
I think two examples that we can draw from in the real world are Margot Robbie and Ana de Armas. Both are interesting because they display a different spectrum of the Western beauty standard.
Ana de Armas seems strikingly similar to the Kaelar example I've presented. She has that "doll" aesthetic with the large eyes, wide face and big cheeks. But what helps distinguish her from the kaelar female is an actual jaw and facial fat. Her cheekbones are not popping out awkwardly from within her skin.
On the other hand, I want to debunk some of the theories from some forum posters about jaws and bone structure making women more "masculine." Margot Robbie is another example of a woman fitting the Western beauty standard. She has very prominent bone structure with large cheekbones.
The same elements are present here: large eyes, high cheekbones, and facial fat. There's no cavern where her cheeks should be. She isn't famished. Additionally, her jawline is so incredibly sharp. Don't listen to these guys. Don't give women recessed jawlines.
Py'rai female uncanny valley
This old Py'rai female concept looks good, but something's off... I would say it's the lack of a jaw.
In conclusion, we all need to listen to Emmanuel Gonzales. This guy seems to me to be making extremely good concepts for the Ashes character races. He grounds his concepts in earlier fantasy concepts, and I think that is incredibly valid. Give me Lord of the Rings, give me World of Warcraft. You don't have to reinvent the wheel, just give me someone that isn't a walking skeleton. The cheekbones are excusable, but ground it for the love of god. And let women have jawlines!
Gonzales Empyrean concept
Give me this Thranduil rip-off and we're chilling.
6
Comments
When you see this artwork, it conveys a unique identity that should also be reflected in the game.
In this case, I honestly feel there aren’t enough.
There are people on these forums defending this aesthetic with arguments like, “This is Alpha 1” or “This isn’t what Alpha 1 is for.”
However, I would argue that providing feedback now is more valuable than ever. There’s a real chance that this look is intentional in some way.
The developers have been working full-time on this for three years. They don’t see it the way we do. If we don’t provide as much feedback as possible about these aesthetics being disliked, we could end up with another Concord situation on our hands.
This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
Right now, I couldnt make anything remotely aesthetically pleasing in this game. It will absolutely die on the vine if they don't spend a GOOD portion of time making characters that are attractive and appealing.
You can, yes. You can also un-gaunt the cheeks with one slider and adjust most things with sculpting. The primary issue is the lack of general scaling options (for head, shoulder width, etc), and the fact that the settings don't translate well to the in-game models.
The OP's comment on the female model's sunken collarbone as well as the U-shape from neck to shoulder is a weird choice.
Once the full char creator with all its options is in the build, most of these issues will be gone.
For the feeling of freedom I can accept when people feel the urge to give themself a Frankensteins monster for the lulz or out of inability to make something beautiful.
BUT...
... I endorse this mindset with the condition and hope, that if people refuse to give their own characters a beautiful appearance, I can rightclick their icon or something and then activate an option I find in a small menu that will open...
" Randomize appearance of this player " and if their character looks too ugly for my taste, hehehehehehe, I can just overhaul them with something that only I can see until I do not have to puke anymore.
And just to be sure let me do the same for NPC's.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH!
I can never stress enough how important immersion is to me. ^_^
This is the exact kind of sentiment I was looking for when writing my post, and exactly why I wrote the post in the first place. It seemed to me that, and still seems, that there was a noticeable lack of feedback on the character designs in this game.
Please guys, give feedback on characters.
In terms of the idea that intrepid will eventually fix this problem by giving players the proper tools to remove “cheekbone size” or “level of gauntness,” I will say this:
I believe players are kind of stupid compared to developers. This isn’t exactly their fault, as they don’t spend half as much time on the specifics of games that developers do. Consequently, when given the million tools that developers have been working with to make characters, I don’t think players will have the want or the ability to use them properly.
This is why I believe games have presets for characters. It may be that I’m too lazy to put time into a character, or it may be that the tools readily available to me are not adequately explained or simple enough for my use right off the bat.
I love to spend hours working on my video game characters. Still, without a proper preset to work off of, or even the right tools to obtain my desired look, the result is hours of frustration in order to get a passable character. This is exactly what happens in any souls like. Not only are the presets “just okay,” but the tools to change appearance are confusing and hard to manage.
This is why we don’t only need intrepid to give us the tools to make good looking characters but also that they need to give us good looking characters as presets.