Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Are Mega Guilds and Modern Tools Changing the Spirit of MMOs?
Scoric
Member, Alpha Two
Hey everyone,
I wanted to share some thoughts and spark a discussion based on my experience so far in the Alpha II testing for Ashes of Creation. Before diving in, here’s a little context about me:
Ashes of Creation feels like the game I’ve been waiting for since I was a kid. Its potential is extraordinary, and I’d love to contribute to its success however I can. Steven, your passion is palpable and honestly contagious—if I could bet on this game’s success, I’d go all in because it’s clear passion drives the greatest endeavors.
But here’s where things get interesting, and perhaps where some of my feedback might be more philosophical than practical.
The Internet’s Impact on MMOs
Let’s take a moment to look back at the days of Allakhazam. For those unfamiliar, it was a website that provided searchable databases for MMOs like EverQuest, World of Warcraft, and others. It was revolutionary at the time—no more fumbling in the dark or relying on hearsay to solve quests or optimize builds. It brought clarity and convenience, but it also marked a significant shift.
In my opinion, this was the beginning of the end for the sense of discovery and adventure in MMOs. Suddenly, instead of figuring things out through exploration and community discussion, players could just “look it up.” Over time, this evolved into a culture of min-maxing, where the goal became optimizing every aspect of gameplay to race to the finish line. And for many, once that goal was accomplished. It was the end of the game… until the content cycle caught up to the players.
The Impact of Mega Guilds and Discord
I’ve joined a mega guild during Alpha II, and it’s been both thrilling and overwhelming. This guild spans 3–5 full groups, all hyper-organized on Discord. We’ve divided roles—gathering, processing, and so on—working toward efficiency and completing every testable system in the game.
On one hand, it’s exciting to see this level of collaboration and to be part of something so ambitious. But on the other, it feels like we’re turning the game into a job. The constant focus on min-maxing and squeezing every bit of efficiency out of the systems makes me wonder:
The Challenge for Smaller Players or Independent Styles
I worry about how much impact smaller, independent players can have in a world where mega guilds dominate. If you’re not part of a massive Discord operation, will you still be able to meaningfully contribute to your node or progress in other ways?
Right now, it feels like everything revolves around these organized groups. If I wanted to ignore the Discord meta and just do my own thing—maybe roleplay as a hermit or casually enjoy the game—it seems like my experience would be marginalized.
Here’s the core question:
Will the game design allow for small-scale, independent success and meaningful contributions outside of massive guilds?
Can someone enjoy the world and its systems at their own pace without feeling forced to engage in highly structured, meta-driven play?
Balancing for a Wide Audience
I understand that for Ashes of Creation to succeed, it needs to appeal to a wide range of players. Hardcore, casual, solo, and guild-focused gamers all need to find their place. But as someone who’s seen the shift in MMOs from adventure-focused gameplay to hyper-optimized meta gaming, I can’t help but feel a bit nostalgic for a time when exploration and discovery were the heart of the genre.
Am I just a gaming boomer stuck in the past? Maybe. But I don’t think I’m alone in this feeling.
What Do You Think?
Does anyone else share this concern? Do you think the game will strike a balance between mega guild dominance and meaningful independent play? Or will the tools we have now (Discord, online databases, etc.) inevitably push us all into this efficiency-first mindset?
And for those who feel the same way, how do you think game design can address this without alienating the hardcore, highly organized crowd?
I guess an alternative option would be to just be a hermit in the woods and take things at my own pace. Not to care about progression and getting on voice chat.
Is that something that could be possible when this vision is fully realized in 202X ?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
I wanted to share some thoughts and spark a discussion based on my experience so far in the Alpha II testing for Ashes of Creation. Before diving in, here’s a little context about me:
- I’m in my late 40s
- Financially successful and blessed with a family
- Been playing MMOs since 1989, with my first gaming love being King’s Quest
Ashes of Creation feels like the game I’ve been waiting for since I was a kid. Its potential is extraordinary, and I’d love to contribute to its success however I can. Steven, your passion is palpable and honestly contagious—if I could bet on this game’s success, I’d go all in because it’s clear passion drives the greatest endeavors.
But here’s where things get interesting, and perhaps where some of my feedback might be more philosophical than practical.
The Internet’s Impact on MMOs
Let’s take a moment to look back at the days of Allakhazam. For those unfamiliar, it was a website that provided searchable databases for MMOs like EverQuest, World of Warcraft, and others. It was revolutionary at the time—no more fumbling in the dark or relying on hearsay to solve quests or optimize builds. It brought clarity and convenience, but it also marked a significant shift.
In my opinion, this was the beginning of the end for the sense of discovery and adventure in MMOs. Suddenly, instead of figuring things out through exploration and community discussion, players could just “look it up.” Over time, this evolved into a culture of min-maxing, where the goal became optimizing every aspect of gameplay to race to the finish line. And for many, once that goal was accomplished. It was the end of the game… until the content cycle caught up to the players.
The Impact of Mega Guilds and Discord
I’ve joined a mega guild during Alpha II, and it’s been both thrilling and overwhelming. This guild spans 3–5 full groups, all hyper-organized on Discord. We’ve divided roles—gathering, processing, and so on—working toward efficiency and completing every testable system in the game.
On one hand, it’s exciting to see this level of collaboration and to be part of something so ambitious. But on the other, it feels like we’re turning the game into a job. The constant focus on min-maxing and squeezing every bit of efficiency out of the systems makes me wonder:
- Is this the intended experience for Ashes of Creation?
- Are these mega guilds shaping the game into something far from its original vision?
The Challenge for Smaller Players or Independent Styles
I worry about how much impact smaller, independent players can have in a world where mega guilds dominate. If you’re not part of a massive Discord operation, will you still be able to meaningfully contribute to your node or progress in other ways?
Right now, it feels like everything revolves around these organized groups. If I wanted to ignore the Discord meta and just do my own thing—maybe roleplay as a hermit or casually enjoy the game—it seems like my experience would be marginalized.
Here’s the core question:
Will the game design allow for small-scale, independent success and meaningful contributions outside of massive guilds?
Can someone enjoy the world and its systems at their own pace without feeling forced to engage in highly structured, meta-driven play?
Balancing for a Wide Audience
I understand that for Ashes of Creation to succeed, it needs to appeal to a wide range of players. Hardcore, casual, solo, and guild-focused gamers all need to find their place. But as someone who’s seen the shift in MMOs from adventure-focused gameplay to hyper-optimized meta gaming, I can’t help but feel a bit nostalgic for a time when exploration and discovery were the heart of the genre.
Am I just a gaming boomer stuck in the past? Maybe. But I don’t think I’m alone in this feeling.
What Do You Think?
Does anyone else share this concern? Do you think the game will strike a balance between mega guild dominance and meaningful independent play? Or will the tools we have now (Discord, online databases, etc.) inevitably push us all into this efficiency-first mindset?
And for those who feel the same way, how do you think game design can address this without alienating the hardcore, highly organized crowd?
I guess an alternative option would be to just be a hermit in the woods and take things at my own pace. Not to care about progression and getting on voice chat.
Is that something that could be possible when this vision is fully realized in 202X ?
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
4
Comments
NES Zelda came out in ‘86/87 and Nintendo Power hit the rack around the same time. There were solutions to easter eggs we didn’t even know existed. I think it’s just a lot more effecient to get that info now.
The question is whether mmos can deliver content at a velocity to match the overtuned effeciency of modern communications. In 2024, it just isn’t very hard to reach & organize large groups of people for short periods of time - hence the inluence of influencers.
Since I don’t find the META mega-guild approach personally enjoyable, I already know I’m taking the woodsy hermit path and testing accordingly. So Ashes is about exploration, raising arrtisan skill %, and making a little coin on the side. None of those things can be looted from me regardless of guild size.
The shift this brought was, according to my 'research', moreso in demographic. It is relatively easy for an MMO to change its target demographic because MMOs are very large, vaguely defined experiences. Competitive games speed up this process immensely.
The lack of searchable database or quest marker website results in people who want to min-max getting filtered out (or at least, it used to before YouTube got big). Sometimes they didn't get filtered, but instead formed cliques who had some access to the data somewhere that others wouldn't easily find, and therefore other people just lived in the same game worlds oblivious to the massive number of people who were like this already.
In our era it's reversed. The 'silent ones' are the ones not in these spaces. But though all this supports your viewpoint, it's less of a 'shift' and more of the fact that older games often weren't (or couldn't be) very dynamic or 'good' in that way. Modern designs can go past this, they just 'leave behind' a 'shadow' of something that the min-maxers fixate on rather than leaving.
tl;dr what changed is not how people play, but which players are vocal. For the most part, I think that limiting the information on basic game elements usually covered by those sites, is just gatekeeping less invested players.
Again, disagree, because this is how some people have always played these games, and everything I have learned about Steven indicates he was one of the most prolific of all in this regard.
Point is, this isn't modern, the modern part is how much the general public knows about (and 'complains about') these guilds, because the general public now also learns and uses the software involved. Ventrilo was a 2002 product.
Today, you can reasonably go 'Discord required' and assume that many players have it available and know how to use it. But for the 'original vision' or 'intended experience' for Ashes to be different, you'd have to assume Steven's megaguild wasn't using/requiring some equivalent.
tl;dr be careful about misattribution due to nostalgia biases. Maybe you're totally right, but given who the man in charge is, I seriously doubt it.
I can't see what would possibly lessen the enjoyment of such a person.
To 'roleplay as a hermit' genuinely, all of the 'issues' that come with being one should happen. A hermit doesn't 'progress' in the same ways, a hermit barely 'would contribute to a node', more likely to be a wanderer/vagrant.
A hermit also probably can't hoard anything because realistically speaking someone would find and murder them and take it, in the sort of world Ashes is.
Basically, one can't be 'marginalized' in this way except if you are being socially excluded, i.e. one wants to contribute in a similar way to a large guild, but can't manage to join one. There don't seem to be any really hard limits on it.
You're definitely not alone, but as noted above, all that happened is that games now project their other side. Probably also because as games evolved, single player games with sprawling massive worlds to adventure in, became a norm, and MMORPGs don't compete with those easily.
The 'side' of MMOs you lived in was 'adventure focused gameplay', but bluntly put, it isn't even than 'min-maxers' are generally 'not playing for that'. It's a spectrum and some people are just way better/faster at the adventuring and exploring than the average player.
Generally, for those people, games cannot reasonably be made difficult enough to slow them down without becoming unplayable for a much larger section of the population. Ashes of Creation will do well here because the difficulty at the top comes from facing others at the top (and hopefully maintenance drain).
I'm not concerned because there is no 'us all' in this situation. MMORPG players are diverse and effective, just mostly waiting for games that respect their diversity such as Ashes, Throne and Liberty, or WoW: Dragonflight.
This form of game design isn't unknowably hard either, it's more like it was a forgotten art temporarily lost when companies started to focus more on the ... let's call them the 'non-Classic' demographic. But that distinction isn't actually about 'modern' vs not. People of both types exist in every 'era', it's just a matter of which ones are 'loudest'.
Azherae, when I first saw your response, I thought that you were just disagreeing with everything I wrote to disagree. But after carefully reading .. I appreciate the alternate view and you bring up some insightful, thoughtful perspective. I hope this helps continue the dialogue. Maybe Steven will even weigh in. Although Discord is definitely where all the "action" is .. lol
I also would rather not walk around looking for something when I could just search for the location on a website. This allows me to get more done during my short play time and allows me to feel like I am "keeping up" with the players who are able to put more time in than I do.
It all goes towards not feeling like I'm "wasting my time." As long as I feel like I am doing something towards progressing towards becoming better (leveling, artisan skill, better builds, etc), I am happy with the time I spend.
If I had 20+ hours a week to play and a community that I could chat with frequently, I might feel different. As a solo player with very limited time, I think online resources are essential.
as for "mega guilds", I see it as an unavoidable problem with the streamer/ online space. They do tend to take over servers, and you're either with them or not playing. The best way to deal with them is to find a server where they are not. I hope Intrepid or the community creates a method to know which servers have mega guilds (streamer guilds I am mostly concerned about because they will have up to half of the server population. I am not worried about 500 player guilds with elite players since that is a small fraction of the server).
The traditional labels of "guild," "team," or "clan" have served MMOs for decades, but they come with preconceived structures and limitations. What if we could redefine how players collaborate, compete, and connect in a way that embraces discovery, individuality, and collective growth?
We’ve developed something entirely fresh—a dynamic system that adapts to the evolving nature of players' interactions and preferences. This system aims to:
Foster Organic Communities: Encouraging players to collaborate naturally based on interests, playstyles, or goals, without forcing rigid hierarchies.
Empower Independent Players: Giving solo players meaningful ways to contribute and excel without the pressure of joining massive, hyper-organized groups.
Balance Influence Across Scales: Ensuring small groups or individuals can impact the game world as much as mega guilds, through innovative mechanics.
Promote Adventure and Efficiency: Prioritizing exploration, creativity, and unique experiences rather than just optimization and meta strategies.
A dynamic affinity system where players' actions naturally connect them with like-minded peers.
Fluid roles and goals that evolve with the game world, removing the rigidity of predetermined structures.
Node-like influence for individuals or small groups, contributing to world development without requiring large-scale coordination.
We're eager to hear your thoughts and explore how this idea resonates with the community. Join us on Discord to discuss:
Does this concept excite you as a player?
What challenges or opportunities do you see in breaking away from traditional guild structures?
How do you envision contributing to a system like this?
Let’s rethink what collaboration in MMOs can look like—together.
As an emotional appeal, I'll give it a 6 if it's a person, and a 9 if AI was involved in the counterparse.
Hahaha...
I'm so confused
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, and people often feel nostalgic towards their first MMO experience. It's only natural to look at things thst you experience after and claim that they ruined that initial experience you had.
For example, Allakhazam wasn't the first website of its type - indeed they existed for 5 or 6 years before. However, if it is the first website of its type you come across, it is only natural to think that this is where they started.
This applies to all sorts of tools and such in game. People think that Dicord chat changed the way people played MMORPG's, but these people were just never a part of those of us that played using TeamSpeak, Ventrillo or Mumble back in the early 2000's, or the people that had a dedicated internet line so they could be on a phone call with people they were playing with, or the people that played MMO's in Internet cafes where your whole group (or guild) was in the same room as you.
If you name a tool, you will find many different generations of use, and each generation has people that think it changed the game. People that think Allakhazam changed how people played MMORPG's probably didn't know about Casters Realm, for example.
What is really happening though, is it is these people realizing that these tools exist - unaware that those around them have probably been using them for a while.
Combat trackers are a prime example of this, with people saying how they ruined MMO's, and it would be great if we could go back to a time 'before 20**', which is only when they found out about them. Combat trackers in MMO's have been around since the 1990's.
People don't usually know when the first of anything was, all they know is when they first dound out about a given type of tool. That nostalgic feeling is one of going back to before they knew about those tools, not going back to before those tools existed.
With all of that said, over the space of 20 or 30 years, it is only natural that the way people would play a given genre of game would change (compare the original Doom to any current first person shooter). However, the tools evolve to facilitate how the population wants to play these games, it enables it, it doesn't shape it.
You are not alone to feel like so.
You don't need to play solo but you have to be careful and manage (min/max) your future experience and enjoyment.
What I do is stopping watching streams, including Stevens streams, stopped reading forum and wait until a bit later when social structures become more stable on the servers.
Maybe in Alpha 2 I will not find the people with whom I played before but I might still find and join a small guild which plays like I want. You can also create a guild and advertise your play style and conditions and see how many join.