Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Realms are now unlocked for Phase II testing!
For our initial launch, testing will begin on Friday, December 20, 2024, at 10 AM Pacific and continue uninterrupted until Monday, January 6, 2025, at 10 AM Pacific. After January 6th, we’ll transition to a schedule of five-day-per-week access for the remainder of Phase II.
You can download the game launcher here and we encourage you to join us on our for the most up to date testing news.
Why Beating High-Level Mobs Feels Pointless: The Reward Problem Ruining Risky Gameplay
Blip
Member, Alpha Two
My friend and I were out exploring and ended up challenging ourselves against level 20-21 mobs. We are both level 10/11 and had a lot of fun defeating the mobs until we noticed that we weren’t getting anything from it, not even XP.
I spent some time pondering this, and here’s what I came up with:
1. Risk vs. Reward Imbalance
Expectation of Reward: Players naturally expect greater rewards for taking greater risks. Defeating mobs that are much higher level than you involves overcoming significant challenges be it better strategy, mechanical skill, or resource management. Not receiving XP or worthwhile loot diminishes the sense of achievement.
Diminished Player Agency: When players take on harder challenges, they're often stepping outside the game's "recommended" difficulty. This shows creativity or skill. Failing to reward this effort makes the game feel rigid and unresponsive to the player's actions.
2. Sense of Progression
XP as Progress: XP is a tangible representation of progress. Denying XP when defeating a stronger opponent suggests the effort was meaningless, which can demotivate players.
Missed Opportunity for Reward: Giving more XP or loot for defeating harder mobs reinforces the player's sense of progress and encourages experimentation with tougher challenges.
3. Loot as a Motivator
Risky Battles Deserve Better Loot: Harder battles naturally expend more resources (e.g., potions, gear durability, etc.), so the reward should compensate for the increased cost. Better loot incentivizes players to engage in higher-risk content and provides satisfaction after a tough battle.
Incentivizing Skill: If skilled players can defeat stronger mobs earlier than expected, they should be rewarded with loot that reflects the effort and skill involved. This also helps break the monotony of grinding by giving a sense of achievement.
4. Engagement and Replayability
Encouraging Player Creativity: Players are more likely to experiment with unique builds, strategies, or approaches if they know the game rewards ingenuity.
Breaking the Grind: Grinding on mobs your level can become repetitive. The opportunity to earn better rewards by taking risks adds variety and excitement.
5. Psychological Impact
Reward Reinforcement Loop: Games use rewards to create a positive feedback loop, encouraging players to repeat desired behaviors. If higher risk yields no rewards, players may disengage from what should be exciting moments.
Punishment for Ambition: Not rewarding high-risk victories can feel like a punishment for being ambitious or skilled, discouraging players from testing their limits.
How Better Rewards Could Work
Dynamic XP Scaling: Grant more XP for defeating mobs significantly higher in level than the player, reflecting the increased effort.
Improved Loot Drops: Offer loot with higher rarity, unique stats, or special effects for overcoming tough challenges.
Special Recognition: Include achievements, titles, or cosmetic rewards for consistently defeating mobs outside the expected difficulty range.
Balancing Concerns
Ensure it’s not easily exploitable, e.g., by grouping with higher-level players or abusing mechanics.
Introduce diminishing returns for extreme level gaps to maintain game balance while still offering meaningful rewards.
I belive this is already done but remember we are about the same level when doing this.
In summary, rewarding players for defeating higher-level mobs respects their skill and effort, enhances the fun of the game, and keeps players engaged with the progression system. It's a balance of making the game feel fair, challenging, and rewarding at the same time.
I spent some time pondering this, and here’s what I came up with:
1. Risk vs. Reward Imbalance
Expectation of Reward: Players naturally expect greater rewards for taking greater risks. Defeating mobs that are much higher level than you involves overcoming significant challenges be it better strategy, mechanical skill, or resource management. Not receiving XP or worthwhile loot diminishes the sense of achievement.
Diminished Player Agency: When players take on harder challenges, they're often stepping outside the game's "recommended" difficulty. This shows creativity or skill. Failing to reward this effort makes the game feel rigid and unresponsive to the player's actions.
2. Sense of Progression
XP as Progress: XP is a tangible representation of progress. Denying XP when defeating a stronger opponent suggests the effort was meaningless, which can demotivate players.
Missed Opportunity for Reward: Giving more XP or loot for defeating harder mobs reinforces the player's sense of progress and encourages experimentation with tougher challenges.
3. Loot as a Motivator
Risky Battles Deserve Better Loot: Harder battles naturally expend more resources (e.g., potions, gear durability, etc.), so the reward should compensate for the increased cost. Better loot incentivizes players to engage in higher-risk content and provides satisfaction after a tough battle.
Incentivizing Skill: If skilled players can defeat stronger mobs earlier than expected, they should be rewarded with loot that reflects the effort and skill involved. This also helps break the monotony of grinding by giving a sense of achievement.
4. Engagement and Replayability
Encouraging Player Creativity: Players are more likely to experiment with unique builds, strategies, or approaches if they know the game rewards ingenuity.
Breaking the Grind: Grinding on mobs your level can become repetitive. The opportunity to earn better rewards by taking risks adds variety and excitement.
5. Psychological Impact
Reward Reinforcement Loop: Games use rewards to create a positive feedback loop, encouraging players to repeat desired behaviors. If higher risk yields no rewards, players may disengage from what should be exciting moments.
Punishment for Ambition: Not rewarding high-risk victories can feel like a punishment for being ambitious or skilled, discouraging players from testing their limits.
How Better Rewards Could Work
Dynamic XP Scaling: Grant more XP for defeating mobs significantly higher in level than the player, reflecting the increased effort.
Improved Loot Drops: Offer loot with higher rarity, unique stats, or special effects for overcoming tough challenges.
Special Recognition: Include achievements, titles, or cosmetic rewards for consistently defeating mobs outside the expected difficulty range.
Balancing Concerns
Ensure it’s not easily exploitable, e.g., by grouping with higher-level players or abusing mechanics.
Introduce diminishing returns for extreme level gaps to maintain game balance while still offering meaningful rewards.
I belive this is already done but remember we are about the same level when doing this.
In summary, rewarding players for defeating higher-level mobs respects their skill and effort, enhances the fun of the game, and keeps players engaged with the progression system. It's a balance of making the game feel fair, challenging, and rewarding at the same time.
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Comments
I thought that being able to kill monsters and gain rewards way outside your level was part of the original design intent. I'd imagine the issue with this system is that 8-man groups grinding high level monsters would render all the low level monsters completely bypassed. There are probably other "health of the game" reasons why they chose not to go forward with this idea. Maybe some forum members know more.
My understanding of their current solution is the "Starred" monster system to provide this additional difficulty. If you want to fight harder things with more exp, find a monster around your level with 1,2,3 stars. Probably as a duo, 1 star is pretty tough and rewarding, 2 stars might be extremely difficult, and 3 stars you get owned.
Anyway, it was super rewarding. You got a visibly huge chunk of exp for the heroic effort (it wasn't easy).
It's always disappointing in modern games when you get reduced or no rewards for killing stuff that is clearly out of your typical level range (or just a mob that the devs have decided shouldn't be hunted at all). Poor game design, IMO.
Every element of the game played into this dynamic that made exploring the map and challenging yourself to find the next rewarding spot to level at difficult, and worth your time, but even once you got to that point, you still had to find the right players to party with, grind there, survive against rival players, and grind resources in safe zones to fund your trips into the more dangerous ones.
Personally, I think there's no good reasons why WoW-formula games don't play like this, besides the devs not trusting themselves to balance the world, and the players getting too whiney when other people advance substantially faster than themselves. Also the frustration when you fail at pushing your limits, losing your invested resources, and a lot of time. Which was what made it all feel so damn rewarding and made the effort feel so meaningful.
Yep i was always under the impression that Ashes was supposed to be like that.
1. Steven wants no level penalty scaling on abilities or general output (which means there is no level-gap where mobs just basically become unkillable, and then you can aim for just below that)
2. Accuracy needs to be a deprioritized stat for most of the game's 'balance' to work, which means mobs are generally going to get hit a bit more than in other games (this is not saying that Accuracy does not matter at all right now)
3. Kiting and free movement are high priority for the combat feel, yet mobs need to be diverse, so there will always be some mob 10+ levels over that is bad at catching a kiter-tank and that will be on auto-farm.
The economy also suffers a bit if the three above things are true but mobs drop 'progression appropriate items for their level'.
It's way easier/better to just do what they're doing, it's a cost for the other parts of the game that are supposed to feel good.
(for clarity, I don't like those things above or think they feel good, I'm just pointing out the bits, don't @ me about how good or bad the 3 points above are - but plz poke me about inaccuracies in what I said about 'em)
Defeating an enemy that most could not, should get rewarded and if only with a heavy chunk of XP.
Even if people have since long posted a tutorial that allows more people to do just that.
It is up to Intrepit to then introduce maybe another element of danger, maybe an actually completely uncontrollable one, that might still screw someone over even with perfect preperation.
But in general -> big guts should equal big recognition.
About 20 years back I remember how I "wasted" time in WoW classic, just using the walljumping mechanic and climbing mountains which lead to nothing more but... a grander view of the landscape.
Nothing too wild but it was huge for me.
Flyingmounts were not a thing, not even for a single player in the game and only automated flying routes existed via gryphons usually since I was an Alliance player.
And when I say climbing mountains I mean mountains that were, of course, normally impossible to even be climbed in the first place.
Their elevation was just too steep and you would automatically slide off at every attempt.
That is... IF... you tried to do it as usually by simply moving forwards.
But when you moved only forward at the same time as you jumped and landed without moving, you could, in some cases, "walljump" upwards, even on surfaces which were visibly, unrealistically steep.
Did it gave something to me?
Items, XP, serverwide recognition? No.
Felt it fulfilling and fun to me? Hell yes!
I made close-up screenshots from the airport on the Ironforge mountain for example, loooooooong before access to it was granted to players to it by the later introduced flyingmounts.
Timeless memorys. True exploration. Freedom beyond what many thought possible.
And I even beat an openworld elite-mob ghoul all by myself with my retribution-paladin, even though these were 5-player mobs.
I used a fear that worked only on undead and stunned him with my hammer of judgement skill whenever I engaged with him in melee combat. Cuz Paladins only had melee combat.
Took some time.
Was risky too cuz the fear could have easily chased him in other nearby undead who then had aggro'd on me as well, but I did it anyway.
Just to prove to myself that I could do it.
Well it exsists atm hitting a lvl 25 mob as a lvl 20 my aa do 400-600 where hitting a lvl 20 mob as a lvl 20 my aa do 800-1200.
Maybe the mobs have a butt load more armor than the lvl 20s but yeah carthin mobs definetly take alot less dmg than the mobs outside that are 5 levels lower than inside the tower
Just to be clear, isn't this the difference between "Dungeon" mobs and 'Overworld' mobs?
Lots of games have this difference and it isn't usually connected directly to level. It's a way to deal with the same problem in a different way. Sometimes it works/feels good, sometimes it doesn't.