Hotkey for defensive target target

I know this function already exists in the game and is marked as "under development", but it is a very important function in PVP and PVE.

Having a hotkey that directly selects the target of your defensive target is absolutely incredible. It makes the team's response and coordination much faster, without the need to keep clicking the mouse on the target.

It would be incredible if we started phase 2 with this function enabled.

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Vysione

This shouldn't exist. It removes all necessity for situational awareness and just lets people automate the process of making braindead focus trains without putting in any of the effort to actually pull it off.

rikardp98

Vysione wrote: »

This shouldn't exist. It removes all necessity for situational awareness and just lets people automate the process of making braindead focus trains without putting in any of the effort to actually pull it off.

No, it just remove the need to move the mouse and click the frame you want to target. You still need situational awareness and a functioning brain. AND you also need to put in the effort to click the keybind.

Mouse movements + clicking are slow and very inefficient, and not something you want to be doing in high end PvP/PvE.

nanfoodle

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

AstuWar

nanfoodle wrote: »

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

So... a bot?

nanfoodle

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

So... a bot?

Toggling target of target makes a bot? Lol you still need to press the skills you want to use.

AstuWar

nanfoodle wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

So... a bot?

Toggling target of target makes a bot? Lol you still need to press the skills you want to use.

Pretty much, yeah. Toggle on auto attack + toggle on auto assist = control a party of eight using just the one character. Add a keyboard macro to repeat some ability every few seconds and you're golden.

IMO, there shouldn't even be a frame for target of target or target of defensive target, but I won't ask for their removal. Now what is being proposed in this thread would make it way too easy to automate a party.

Malva

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

So... a bot?

Toggling target of target makes a bot? Lol you still need to press the skills you want to use.

Pretty much, yeah. Toggle on auto attack + toggle on auto assist = control a party of eight using just the one character. Add a keyboard macro to repeat some ability every few seconds and you're golden.

IMO, there shouldn't even be a frame for target of target or target of defensive target, but I won't ask for their removal. Now what is being proposed in this thread would make it way too easy to automate a party.

I honestly don't understand all the fuss you're making about this.

This option already >>> EXISTS IN THE GAME <<<, it's just not finalized yet, you can check this in the hotkey section.

It's okay if you think it shouldn't even be possible to see the target's target, that's your opinion and it's okay.

However, given that it is something that is already in the game, it is just not finished yet, asking them to speed up the development of this hotkey is not absurd at all.

Furthermore, saying that it would be a bot, or that it would automate a lot, is nonsense. It's literally JUST quality of life. Instead of selecting with the mouse, I select with a key that I have designated for that purpose.

AstuWar

Malva wrote: »

However, given that it is something that is already in the game, it is just not finished yet, asking them to speed up the development of this hotkey is not absurd at all.

I never said it was absurd. I only said it would make it too easy to automate a party. I am not against it being implemented, even if I don't like it.

Malva wrote: »

Furthermore, saying that it would be a bot, or that it would automate a lot, is nonsense. It's literally JUST quality of life. Instead of selecting with the mouse, I select with a key that I have designated for that purpose.

What seems to me akin to a bot is having that button be a toggle, i.e., press it once and your target will change whenever your defensive target's target changes, without the need to press it again when your party's focus changes, as suggested by nanfoodle. This I am against.

Endowed

An assist key like this has been used in MMOs since the 90s. Should be basic stuff.

nanfoodle

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

100% love that. Pls also make it a toggle. On till you turn it off as one option. That would help the DPS to stay on target.

So... a bot?

Toggling target of target makes a bot? Lol you still need to press the skills you want to use.

Pretty much, yeah. Toggle on auto attack + toggle on auto assist = control a party of eight using just the one character. Add a keyboard macro to repeat some ability every few seconds and you're golden.

IMO, there shouldn't even be a frame for target of target or target of defensive target, but I won't ask for their removal. Now what is being proposed in this thread would make it way too easy to automate a party.

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights. Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

AstuWar

nanfoodle wrote: »

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights.

I've already seen people AFK-farming elite mobs, as a single character, not a party. What they do is place their character somewhere where they will only aggro a single mob when it respawns, select a ranged weapon then toggle on auto attack while aiming at the mob's respawn point. That's it, the mob will keep dying without the need to move or use abilities. I saw this happening before the gear nerf of December 6th, but it should still be doable.

By giving them an auto assist toggle you'd be providing them with the tools to do this at a larger scale and, more importantly, the opportunity to do it without macros or any external tool, so that they can claim legitimacy over doing it, especially if one of the party/raid members is actually controlling their character (even if all others are AFK or not actually people).

I'm only trying to explain the benefits for bad actors here. A different issue is what it takes away from skill for actual players, as suggested by Vysione above, which I won't go into.

nanfoodle wrote: »

Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

I never said anything about removing autoattack or forcing people to hold down a key to attack. I know there is an auto attack, that's why I said combining it with auto assist would be a bad thing.

rikardp98

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights.

I've already seen people AFK-farming elite mobs, as a single character, not a party. What they do is place their character somewhere where they will only aggro a single mob when it respawns, select a ranged weapon then toggle on auto attack while aiming at the mob's respawn point. That's it, the mob will keep dying without the need to move or use abilities. I saw this happening before the gear nerf of December 6th, but it should still be doable.

By giving them an auto assist toggle you'd be providing them with the tools to do this at a larger scale and, more importantly, the opportunity to do it without macros or any external tool, so that they can claim legitimacy over doing it, especially if one of the party/raid members is actually controlling their character (even if all others are AFK or not actually people).

I'm only trying to explain the benefits for bad actors here. A different issue is what it takes away from skill for actual players, as suggested by Vysione above, which I won't go into.

nanfoodle wrote: »

Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

I never said anything about removing autoattack or forcing people to hold down a key to attack. I know there is an auto attack, that's why I said combining it with auto assist would be a bad thing.

How exactly does this AFK farming work?

Do they keep firing ranged attacks in the direction of the spawn point, or only when the elite mob spawns?

If it’s only when the mob spawns, how does targeting occur if the player is AFK?

Once the elite mob is killed, how is it looted? Or is the goal just to farm experience?

Lastly, how would a toggle for “target of target” specifically assist in this scenario?

Also, I feel like you might have seen an active player farming the same mob repeatedly and jumped to the conclusion that they were AFK farming simply because they weren’t moving. I’ve done similar things—standing in the same spot farming mobs repeatedly—without being AFK. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just doubt that players afk farm in the way you described (without boting).

AstuWar

rikardp98 wrote: »

Do they keep firing ranged attacks in the direction of the spawn point, or only when the elite mob spawns?

You can only fire ranged attacks if you have a target. They would attack as soon as the mob spawned.

rikardp98 wrote: »

If it’s only when the mob spawns, how does targeting occur if the player is AFK?

I can't know which method they used. One method is action combat camera aimed at the mob spawn after leaving auto attack on.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Once the elite mob is killed, how is it looted? Or is the goal just to farm experience?

I can't know their goals, but if it was just exp, then they 100% succeeded. If they had a macro or other means to repeatedly press F, then that's an easy way to loot since the mob would die right in front of them. Otherwise, they might have been looking at the screen every once in a while, and pressing F twice if there was anything to be looted.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Lastly, how would a toggle for “target of target” specifically assist in this scenario?

Assuming all characters to be AFK, it guarantees all characters are focusing down the same target, then another, etc. If only one character is actually being controlled and all others are AFK, then it gives a single player the damaging capability of as many characters as they can gather together.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Also, I feel like you might have seen an active player farming the same mob repeatedly and jumped to the conclusion that they were AFK farming simply because they weren’t moving. I’ve done similar things—standing in the same spot farming mobs repeatedly—without being AFK. I'm not saying you are wrong, I just doubt that players afk farm in the way you described (without boting).

Could be. Then again, at least one of the instances I saw went on for hours.

rikardp98

AstuWar wrote: »

I can't know which method they used. One method is action combat camera aimed at the mob spawn after leaving auto attack on.

If you have auto attack toggled, will the character auto attack an enemy target without you doing the first attack? From my experience auto attack is only active after you have done the first attack, but haven't used action combat camera.

AstuWar wrote: »

Assuming all characters to be AFK, it guarantees all characters are focusing down the same target, then another, etc. If only one character is actually being controlled and all others are AFK, then it gives a single player the damaging capability of as many characters as they can gather together.

How will the afk players start attacking if the active player is attacking a target? Target of target don't trigger the afk players to start attacking? Again, from my experience, auto attack is only active after you make the first attack.

AstuWar wrote: »

Could be. Then again, at least one of the instances I saw went on for hours.

Hours of farming is normal for "hardcore" players. I have been there and done that.

nanfoodle

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights.

I've already seen people AFK-farming elite mobs, as a single character, not a party. What they do is place their character somewhere where they will only aggro a single mob when it respawns, select a ranged weapon then toggle on auto attack while aiming at the mob's respawn point. That's it, the mob will keep dying without the need to move or use abilities. I saw this happening before the gear nerf of December 6th, but it should still be doable.

By giving them an auto assist toggle you'd be providing them with the tools to do this at a larger scale and, more importantly, the opportunity to do it without macros or any external tool, so that they can claim legitimacy over doing it, especially if one of the party/raid members is actually controlling their character (even if all others are AFK or not actually people).

I'm only trying to explain the benefits for bad actors here. A different issue is what it takes away from skill for actual players, as suggested by Vysione above, which I won't go into.

nanfoodle wrote: »

Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

I never said anything about removing autoattack or forcing people to hold down a key to attack. I know there is an auto attack, that's why I said combining it with auto assist would be a bad thing.

That problem ended with the fix on gear balance.

AstuWar

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you have auto attack toggled, will the character auto attack an enemy target without you doing the first attack?

If you click it once, yes, if your target dies you will automatically resume attacking once you acquire a new target. It's easy to acquire a new target with the action combat camera as I said above.

rikardp98 wrote: »

From my experience auto attack is only active after you have done the first attack, but haven't used action combat camera.

Then it's either an action combat thing or a settings thing. I remember there was some option for not needing a target to perform abilities. Try toying with that.

rikardp98 wrote: »

How will the afk players start attacking if the active player is attacking a target? Target of target don't trigger the afk players to start attacking? Again, from my experience, auto attack is only active after you make the first attack.

Enable auto attack. Enable auto assist. Done.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Hours of farming is normal for "hardcore" players. I have been there and done that.

It's one thing to farm for hours. It's a different thing to press a button and then farm for hours without pressing any other button.

nanfoodle wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights.

I've already seen people AFK-farming elite mobs, as a single character, not a party. What they do is place their character somewhere where they will only aggro a single mob when it respawns, select a ranged weapon then toggle on auto attack while aiming at the mob's respawn point. That's it, the mob will keep dying without the need to move or use abilities. I saw this happening before the gear nerf of December 6th, but it should still be doable.

By giving them an auto assist toggle you'd be providing them with the tools to do this at a larger scale and, more importantly, the opportunity to do it without macros or any external tool, so that they can claim legitimacy over doing it, especially if one of the party/raid members is actually controlling their character (even if all others are AFK or not actually people).

I'm only trying to explain the benefits for bad actors here. A different issue is what it takes away from skill for actual players, as suggested by Vysione above, which I won't go into.

nanfoodle wrote: »

Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

I never said anything about removing autoattack or forcing people to hold down a key to attack. I know there is an auto attack, that's why I said combining it with auto assist would be a bad thing.

That problem ended with the fix on gear balance.

It certainly made it harder to facetank, but the tools to do it are still in the game, and you'd be introducing a new tool with the auto assist, making it easier again.

nanfoodle

AstuWar wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you have auto attack toggled, will the character auto attack an enemy target without you doing the first attack?

If you click it once, yes, if your target dies you will automatically resume attacking once you acquire a new target. It's easy to acquire a new target with the action combat camera as I said above.

rikardp98 wrote: »

From my experience auto attack is only active after you have done the first attack, but haven't used action combat camera.

Then it's either an action combat thing or a settings thing. I remember there was some option for not needing a target to perform abilities. Try toying with that.

rikardp98 wrote: »

How will the afk players start attacking if the active player is attacking a target? Target of target don't trigger the afk players to start attacking? Again, from my experience, auto attack is only active after you make the first attack.

Enable auto attack. Enable auto assist. Done.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Hours of farming is normal for "hardcore" players. I have been there and done that.

It's one thing to farm for hours. It's a different thing to press a button and then farm for hours without pressing any other button.

nanfoodle wrote: »

AstuWar wrote: »

nanfoodle wrote: »

There is more then enough fail safes to deal with boting, then worrying auto attack is going to win fights.

I've already seen people AFK-farming elite mobs, as a single character, not a party. What they do is place their character somewhere where they will only aggro a single mob when it respawns, select a ranged weapon then toggle on auto attack while aiming at the mob's respawn point. That's it, the mob will keep dying without the need to move or use abilities. I saw this happening before the gear nerf of December 6th, but it should still be doable.

By giving them an auto assist toggle you'd be providing them with the tools to do this at a larger scale and, more importantly, the opportunity to do it without macros or any external tool, so that they can claim legitimacy over doing it, especially if one of the party/raid members is actually controlling their character (even if all others are AFK or not actually people).

I'm only trying to explain the benefits for bad actors here. A different issue is what it takes away from skill for actual players, as suggested by Vysione above, which I won't go into.

nanfoodle wrote: »

Holding down a key for auto attack is a dumb idea and heads to carpal tunnel. There is aleady an toggle for auto attack so I don't see IS being worried about that.

I never said anything about removing autoattack or forcing people to hold down a key to attack. I know there is an auto attack, that's why I said combining it with auto assist would be a bad thing.

That problem ended with the fix on gear balance.

It certainly made it harder to facetank, but the tools to do it are still in the game, and you'd be introducing a new tool with the auto assist, making it easier again.

You all over this like a pig at the corn. This is a common tool that most MMOs have and auto attacks do work with it in games that have it. Keep replying, I will keep telling you, you are wrong

This is in the works, relax and stay calm =-)

rikardp98

AstuWar wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

If you have auto attack toggled, will the character auto attack an enemy target without you doing the first attack?

If you click it once, yes, if your target dies you will automatically resume attacking once you acquire a new target. It's easy to acquire a new target with the action combat camera as I said above.

rikardp98 wrote: »

From my experience auto attack is only active after you have done the first attack, but haven't used action combat camera.

Then it's either an action combat thing or a settings thing. I remember there was some option for not needing a target to perform abilities. Try toying with that.

rikardp98 wrote: »

How will the afk players start attacking if the active player is attacking a target? Target of target don't trigger the afk players to start attacking? Again, from my experience, auto attack is only active after you make the first attack.

Enable auto attack. Enable auto assist. Done.

rikardp98 wrote: »

Hours of farming is normal for "hardcore" players. I have been there and done that.

It's one thing to farm for hours. It's a different thing to press a button and then farm for hours without pressing any other button.

If it works the way you say it does, I can see the potential afk killers.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by auto assist, but I don't see how target of target will make the afk killing worse.

But again, I don't really now how this works in ashes so I can't say much about it.

AstuWar

rikardp98 wrote: »

If it works the way you say it does, I can see the potential afk killers.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by auto assist, but I don't see how target of target will make the afk killing worse.

Thank you!

What I mean by auto assist is what is being requested in this thread: they do not want a button or toggle to target "target of target", they want a button/toggle to target the target of your defensive target.

In AoC you can have two simultaneous targets: a friendly one ("defensive target") to cast your heals and buffs on, and a hostile one ("target") to damage. Both your target and defensive target frames show their own "target of (defensive) target" frame next to them. If you are a healer you'd want to have your tank as a defensive target to save time retargeting them; if you're a damage dealer -as it stands now- you may have your shotcaller as your defensive target to see what they are targeting and assist them (i.e., target their target).

What is being requested by nanfoodle is an option to, as a damage dealer, automatically assist your shotcaller (target their target) whenever they change targets, regardless of your current target, so that an entire party may simultaneously select the same target at the press of one player's button, not even one button per player.

In my example of an AFK party except for one character, this character is the defensive target of the other seven and therefore has control over what all eight target and attack at the press of a single button.

rikardp98

AstuWar wrote: »

rikardp98 wrote: »

If it works the way you say it does, I can see the potential afk killers.

And I'm not really sure what you mean by auto assist, but I don't see how target of target will make the afk killing worse.

Thank you!

What I mean by auto assist is what is being requested in this thread: they do not want a button or toggle to target "target of target", they want a button/toggle to target the target of your defensive target.

In AoC you can have two simultaneous targets: a friendly one ("defensive target") to cast your heals and buffs on, and a hostile one ("target") to damage. Both your target and defensive target frames show their own "target of (defensive) target" frame next to them. If you are a healer you'd want to have your tank as a defensive target to save time retargeting them; if you're a damage dealer -as it stands now- you may have your shotcaller as your defensive target to see what they are targeting and assist them (i.e., target their target).

What is being requested by nanfoodle is an option to, as a damage dealer, automatically assist your shotcaller (target their target) whenever they change targets, regardless of your current target, so that an entire party may simultaneously select the same target at the press of one player's button, not even one button per player.

In my example of an AFK party except for one character, this character is the defensive target of the other seven and therefore has control over what all eight target and attack at the press of a single button.

Oh, okay, I understand what you mean now. Generally, I’m not a huge fan of toggles. A toggle for auto-attacking your current target is fine, but a toggle for automatically selecting the target of your defensive target feels problematic.

The biggest issue isn’t AFK farming mobs—it’s the potential for large groups to focus-fire on a target in PvP or PvE without much effort. With a keybind to assist, players still need to actively watch and take action to follow the leader’s target, which requires more awareness and engagement.

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