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Sagas and Themes - impact and cost.

SmileGurneySmileGurney Member, Alpha Two
edited January 12 in Bard Archetype
I have reached level 25, and frankly I see little reason atm to use Sagas, Themes are already an expensive headache. I do like some Sagas in their concept...but still their situational impact vs cost isn't there for me.

Theme's passive and active buffs are nice, but they are expensive to cast and with how micro-intensive bard is already, their 30 second uptime just adds to that pain. I suppose I should be grateful their cast time is short.

Sages are sold as these impactful abilities which can make a real difference in a pvx engagement. Bugs aside (I don't think all of them even work as intended), I don't feel their impact on the battlefield justifies:
  • Talent point investment, especially tier 2 sagas
  • 180 second set-up time
  • Mana cost
  • Cast time and being rooted when doing so
  • The fact you have to recast your themes after a Saga consumes them

Please someone prove me wrong. Thanks.
My lungs taste the air of Time,
Blown past falling sands…

Comments

  • yianni_LoDyianni_LoD Member, Alpha Two
    yea sagas are pretty pointless and barely work
  • SmileGurneySmileGurney Member, Alpha Two
    yianni_LoD wrote: »
    yea sagas are pretty pointless and barely work
    LoD plays AoC? I haven't seen you guys since the OG Darkfall.
    My lungs taste the air of Time,
    Blown past falling sands…
  • MilosAoCMilosAoC Member, Alpha Two
    Sagas are indeed pretty useless, generally better to keep the theme stacks for their individual benefits than to use it for a sage
  • yianni_LoDyianni_LoD Member, Alpha Two
    yianni_LoD wrote: »
    yea sagas are pretty pointless and barely work
    LoD plays AoC? I haven't seen you guys since the OG Darkfall.

    yea were testing it. and were still around
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I find the mana version of Saga not helpful. Getting team mates to run around in circles to find blue glowy dots is not helpful or fun. AoE that fills people by a fixed 50% mana top up. Or made the next 2 min skills require no mana. So you can top them up while they use skills mana free.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I messed with all of the sagas and found them all to be very useless.

    The gravity one is cool to mess with, but it is not something I would use regularly.

    OP is right the sagas are awful.

    I am not sure if a number buff would fix any of them.

    They need a good rethink.

    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • XhykorXhykor Member, Alpha Two
    I Agree and I would maybe play more into the Group Support aspect a bit more with a few of them.

    Return to Verra is over all ok and a nice O Shit button
    However instead of a Heal I would like to have it in Shield form with just some glee
    (Maybe 50% of Health as Shield for 10 Sec)
    Reason: to distinguish the Bard more from the Cleric.

    The Silent Pantheon is sadly not very useful, running around collecting the Buffs is annoying and depending on location or group play difficult.
    However a Weapon buff that gives weapons attacks Mana steal of 100% DMG to Mana for 2-3 Sec could d be useful.

    The Apocalypse I tried it a few times but sadly I didn't feel any significant impact from it.
    However with a bit of adjustment the skill could be good more impactful.

    The Myth of creation is a more PvP Skill and ok for now and Volume 2 is .... not that important for now
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 3
    (deleted)
  • cyragreatbeardcyragreatbeard Member, Alpha Two
    I think for silent pantheon, even if it just gave everyone random buffs itd be a little more efficient. Granted, catching an increase to physical damage as a mage no matter how strong the buff is isnt very useful.
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Myself I think Bards are a support class. IMO if every type of Saga used should be an epic effect for the team. Should be buffing them on a God like mode. People should be excited about what sage flavor you will be playing.
  • XhykorXhykor Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 8
    Greetings,
    I've had some time to think about this topic and have come up with a more radical system for themes and Sagas.
    First of all, I wouldn't change the 30-second buffs for activation, except for Joy(It needs a bit of Love).
    From here on, I would implement a triangle system for the whole loop, with the number 3 being a consistent factor in the system.


    First Use Case: Passive Effect
    • Tragedy: Each Tragedy gives a 20% chance to generate 1 additional resonance. When a set of 3 Tragedies is active, it has a 75% chance to trigger.
    WHY: As a Bard, resonance is an important resource. Optimizing the generation of resonance and attacking to trigger it is a crucial part of the gameplay loop.
    • Mastery: Stays as is, but a set of 3 increases mana restoration by 40%.
    • Comedy: Stays as is, but a set of 3 increases healing by 25%.
    (Random Idea that has not much to do with anything)
    Also a collection if 1 tragedy, 1 Mastery and 1 Comedy could create a buff effect that increases your Melodies by 10% (but removes the individual effect of each)


    Second Use Case: Self-Use Effect
    -Skill Name: Narcissist
    -Available: Automatically at level 12 or 15
    -Description and Effect: Consume your Tragedy, Mastery, or Comedy for personal gain.
    -Narcissist triggers the 30-second cooldown of the themes, leaving you without any passive effect for 30 seconds and requiring 2 minutes to reach 3 stacks again.

    • 3x Tragedy: Get 5 Stacks of Resonance and increase attack speed by 50% for 6 seconds.
    • 3x Mastery: Restores 25% of your mana and 50% of your stamina.
    • 3x Comedy: Heals you for 40% of your health and gives you an additional 20% shield for 5 seconds.



    Third Use Case: Group Buff and Cooperation Effects
    -Skill Name: Sagas I & II
    -Available: Can be skilled
    -Description and Effect: Consume your Tragedy, Mastery, or Comedy to open possibilities for your allies.
    -Sagas triggers the 30-second cooldown of the themes, leaving you without any passive effect for 30 seconds and requiring 2 minutes to reach 3 stacks again.

    Buffs (Sagas)
    • 3x Mastery: Pantheon of Heroes (Burst Buff)
    Awaken the inner hero in your allies with your stories.
    Increase physical and magical attack power by 100(or Damage by 20-25% or so)
    ncrease attack and cast speed by 25% for 6 seconds.

    • 3x Comedy: Return to Verra (Protection Buff)
    Your allies can face every challenge in Verra because you will protect them.
    Gives each member in range a shield of 50% of their life for 10 seconds.
    If the shield is destroyed before it runs out, trigger Glee.

    • 2x Mastery, 1x Comedy(Saga2): Heroes of Ages Past

    WHY: The buffs seem strong, but you lose the passive effect and they have short durations. Additionally, it could be a way to counter boss mechanics. For example, if a boss has a devastating attack and you need to hide behind a wall, you could use the protection to minimize the impact. Or if another boss casts something and you need to stop them with a certain amount of damage, you can buff your team to increase burst damage output.

    Cooperation (Sagas)
    • 3x Tragedy: I would leave the same, just fire damage and burn effect so other classes can combust them.
    • 2x Mastery, 1x Tragedy (Saga2): A cold field that ticks chill, and if the enemy stays inside, the last tick freezes them. Mages can then shatter it.
    • 2x Tragedy, 1x Mastery(Saga2): Horrors of the Void


    These changes would give the Bard 3 ways of decision he can make in Fights, Narcissist to save himself with a big heal, Mana or to Hit faster and trigger Resonance more often.

    Sagas to support his Allies or Cooperate with other Classes for triggering effect and Increase Damage like Compost or Shatter.

    And Passive effects that are easy to use but have a no bombastic impact
  • XhykorXhykor Member, Alpha Two
    PS.: A different ideas that I had was the Sagas could also be different sorted

    For example the 3 Sets of each could be SAGA 1 and gives only buss

    3 Tragedy = Burst Buff
    3 Mastery = Personal Buff (you create a Wave and each hit Ally get a buff based on his class)
    3 Comedy = Protection Buff

    and SAGA2 gets the Attack / Cooperation Buff by mix and matching the colors

    but that was just a alternative idea that I had in my mind for some a time, but sorting it like this would make it a bit more boring I think
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Intrepid has been saying" "don't tell us how to fix it just tell us what is wrong."

    What is wrong is that I build up three solid self buffs over the course of a minute and a half.
    Then I spend those buffs on some of the weakest abilities in the game for the effort it takes to cast them.
    And it takes extra skill points and hot bar slots to do all of this.

    In almost all cases I would rather just have my three stacks of the buffs it takes to cast sagas.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • XhykorXhykor Member, Alpha Two
    "don't tell us how to fix it just tell us what is wrong."

    I think there is a difference in saying definitive "do this to fix it!"
    and just theory craft possible solution that they are clearly able to ignore if they find it not suitable or is not part of their vision.

    But for the issue in itself I agree 100% with you!

  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Xhykor wrote: »
    "don't tell us how to fix it just tell us what is wrong."

    I think there is a difference in saying definitive "do this to fix it!"
    and just theory craft possible solution that they are clearly able to ignore if they find it not suitable or is not part of their vision.

    But for the issue in itself I agree 100% with you!

    You’re free to write as much as you like here, but it might be helpful to consider the signal-to-noise ratio.

    In the past, I’ve also shared long-winded ideas and solutions, but it can be difficult for Intrepid to sift through all of that.

    Even the best ideas might get lost in a lengthy thread.

    While theory-crafting solutions can be fun, feedback is more likely to get noticed if it’s concise and clearly states exactly what’s wrong.

    Personally, I find it much harder to express my opinions with fewer words, but it’s a skill I am finding to be worth practicing.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • XhykorXhykor Member, Alpha Two
    I agree, but I think the hole treat make the issue clear, but on the other side you did surmise it pretty well :smile: )

  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Intrepid has been saying" "don't tell us how to fix it just tell us what is wrong."

    What is wrong is that I build up three solid self buffs over the course of a minute and a half.
    Then I spend those buffs on some of the weakest abilities in the game for the effort it takes to cast them.
    And it takes extra skill points and hot bar slots to do all of this.

    In almost all cases I would rather just have my three stacks of the buffs it takes to cast sagas.

    This is where I am. It's not just the buffs. Sage seems also low on the priority when my skill points are better spent on so many other skills.
  • SpifSpif Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 14
    I admit I never use sagas, so something is probably wrong. Mostly, it's skill points though. It takes 1 skill points to access the first set of sagas, but 3-5 skill points to access the second set since you need a second or even third theme.

    Part of the problem is that The Silent Pantheon (mana regen buff) is random and dependent on the group being aware of buff zones.

    Losing the passive buffs is less of an issue IMO, since you could get one buff back immediately by timing it right. So I'm down 2 stacks for 30 sec and 1 stack for 30 sec.
  • SmileGurneySmileGurney Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 28
    Spif wrote: »
    I admit I never use sagas, so something is probably wrong.
    Yeah, the design of the class. The talent point investment for those "strategic" farts is massive. Sagas have no real impact in combat. Some don't even work. On other hand the rest of the bard toolkit is far too important to sacrifice.

    Even after those incoming "buffs" I would consider spending only ONE talent point on sagas, IF and only IF that meant I could get access to ANY 1 saga out of 7.

    The current double talent point dip just to unlock the Volume II, and the insane talent cost to actually cast some of those will be never justifiable. Especially when Intrepid takes away the free and quick talent respec.

    My lungs taste the air of Time,
    Blown past falling sands…
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited January 27
    wrote: »

    The current double talent point dip just to unlock the Volume II, nevermind to actually ability to actually cast them (as you need more themes) will be never justifiable in LIVE, as they are going to take away the free, "in the field" talent respec.

    Ya the second click is a pain point. So many needed clicks are necessary as a Bard. More then any other class.
  • KyraaxKyraax Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Please someone prove me wrong. Thanks.

    My good sir, you ask the impossible.

    @Intrepid: Sagas are wasted skill tree space, for all the reasons he said. Please throw us a bone to go with all the nerfs you've got coming our way. <3

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