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đź“ť Let's chat about elite creatures đź‘ą

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  • muthatuckaaamuthatuckaaa Member, Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    Greetings, glorious testers!

    We've made some changes to elite mobs this weekend, and we’d like to hear your feedback on 3-star elite mobs and other elite creatures 🚨 from this weekend's test! 🚨

    Here are a few key points we’re curious about:
    • How does the overall difficulty of 3-star elites feel?
    • Do elite creatures feel manageable, overwhelming, easy, or just right?
    • How do you approach these encounters— solo, or in a group?
    • Are there any encounters with 3-star elites where their mechanics or stats stood out as particularly fun or frustrating?

    This feedback helps us find the fun and ensure the challenge feels rewarding. Whether you’ve tackled just one or many, we’d love to hear your thoughts!

    *Please note* I'm looking at this from the perspective of a lvl 25 Ranger, one who loves to kite mobs and bosses solo and try to farm them.

    1) Overall, 3-star mobs feel like health sponges and a DPS check more than anything; outside of noted mobs like the abhorrent in Remnants of Sephillion and the Crystal golems in Carphin, it's not about their mechanics, it's about simply having a group, more specifically a tank, that can handle the mitigation check on their damaging abilities.

    After the stat squish, none of the mobs really feel manageable solo other than the slow-moving zombies in Carphin and Gravepeak; their health and corresponding regen is too high, and my damage was too nerfed, to be able to effectively farm them solo anymore. I was killing several of the Zombies named mobs in Gravepeak before and after the Nerf. They had roughly 60-80k health at that time. I have decent gear, and I had the heroic bow from Firebrand. I used standard kiting tactics solo. Due to my abilities as a Ranger being tied to mana, I simply went oom post nerf before being able to kill them. I would get them to about 15% then have to spend the last several minutes kiting them around oom while my auto attacks just barely countered their regen.

    I understand these are , meant to be group encounters, but part of the allure of playing a class like a Ranger or Necromancer in EQ has always been things like this. Now, it only feels manageable on a Bard, and every other class is just sub-optimal.

    2) Any 3-star mob with a ranged attack feels unmanageable solo, unless you're a bard or Ranger with all legendary or epic equipment.

    3) They're not fun, post nerf they simply take far too long. Crafting far outweighs drops from bosses, to the point where my bow from a Raid boss is practically awful.
  • DropthesoapDropthesoap Member, Pioneer, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two
    edited December 14
    How does the overall difficulty of 3-star elites feel?

    I will agree mostly with what I have read so far.
    - HP sponge
    - One shot mechanics
    - Static
    - Gimmicky
    - No new mechanics

    Do elite creatures feel manageable, overwhelming, easy, or just right?

    Depends on the context and the creature.
    So, in high density area with high spawn rate, they can feel overwhelming, while by themselves they are mostly boring. This is due to a lack of mechanical diversity, but also because the tank can act as a blackhole. Once they get close to it, they never leave.

    How do you approach these encounters— solo, or in a group?

    Mostly in groups, because any other way feels wasteful. Time wise, 3 stars are taking ages even in a group. One star and zero star feel ok for a solo player. I don't think they need to be overly re-balanced in most cases.

    Are there any encounters with 3-star elites where their mechanics or stats stood out as particularly fun or frustrating?

    Yes. In Oakenbane, the goblins are note worthy for suddenly breaking aggro and rolling away. I would dial down the roll speed, and maybe give them a buff that allow us to actually see and read when they do this. I had to explain it to many tanks.

    The golem in Church is actually a great one. It does feel dangerous. The dash is probably a bit too quick for the size of the thing, but otherwise its a great encounter that everyone is happy to be able to kill.

    Pyro, Snipers are amongst my least favorite. They are hard to see when they cast and are deadly, with a very small window to dodge those (if they actually are). This is compared with the golem who can also one shot but the telegraph is clear, and the skill is avoidable.


    Suggestions and ideas

    Arpgs that came out recently have a system related to stars. The number of stars relate to the number of special trait or skill taken from a pool at random. Usually, the downside to this is that some combination are extremely overwhelming while other are underwhelming. If you can find the worst case scenario, that could actually be your named monster. Also, if you keep the number of elements in a given pool low (multiple smaller pools based on monster type) then you should have less difficulty to balance it. And then you also buff the stats in relation to the stars.

    The current treat system is a bit broken with the tank in the middle of it. Once the tank as treat, its almost impossible to surpass it. I would augment the treat generated by other abilities or nerf the tank a bit. Also, as there will be no addons in the game, adding a treat meter would be great. Something along the line of a lateral overlay in the group / raid ui on each player. No need to be fancy, the one with most treat is considered as equal to 1 and the rest is relative to him.

    A note about zombies. They are often depicted as slow (D&D, older movies, The walking dead) but the most terrifying kind are the ones that run (I am a legend, World war Z, The last of us). And they usually have a pack tactics with a knockdown ability. When you are on the ground, that's where they are terrifying.

    The lack of aoe capping might make using swarms of monsters a bit hard on the balancing side. I would suggest capping it at group size (8). In that regard, GW2 is a great example that started without it but had to add it in because of choke point combat being impossible once you obtain a certain mass of players.

    Here is a small list of ideas that could make encounters a bit more difficult.

    - (Frontliners) Frenzy : At % level hp, you are frenzied and start running after {nth closest one, 1st most damaging, random}.
    - (Pyro/Mage) Make it burn : You throw at random flask of burning oil, leaving puddle of fire around you. Ain't that pretty.
    - (Support) Serenity : Apply to you or an ally a soothing spell, allowing you to clear your mind and make proper decisions for a moment (ignore treat or reset it).
    - (Ranged / Light build) Camouflage : Observe and wait for the target most vulnerable.
    - (Big) Trample : Trample the ground creating an aoe with some probabilty to knockdown. Apply damage related to distance to any knocked down foe.
    - Reflect : Reflect the next N attacks to their origin.
    - Ring of {element} : surround yourself with {element} empowering you, while {apply effect [weakening, damaging, slowing, disabling]}.
    - (Mage / Caster) Telekinetic pull : Pull {one, many, all} enemies to you, and apply {[disable, damage, dots, slow]}.
    - (Beast) Pack tactics : As long as you are near a brethren, gain {[% critical, % dmg, % knockdown with additional damage against grounded enemies]}.
    - (Vampire / Blood related) Blood infusion : Once per fight, at %hp select the closest foe and exchange hp with them.

    Hope this helps. Keep up the good work!
  • Cah0sCah0s Member, Alpha Two
    I Can't say nothing about because im not do any 3* Mob because im Play solo and find ppl to play is terrible, i tried 3 Weeks in a row in different days, different hours find ppl and no find one group, only 1 time, for 5 min. Big LoL.

    I Hate that the Game is basically after create a char a Group need game... Bro, let us see a bit from the game, Learn the klasses and see a bit of the world. Some 2* Mobs are ok doing solo, other depending LvL are Harder but is ok. If the peer pressure starts maybe on LvL 15+ is ok, before PLS NO!!!

    Other Thing, here a lot of Ppl say putt or changing 2* Mod to peer pressure difficulty... NO, don'T do this because have a LOT of 2* Mob in NO ELITE areas and if i NEED a group for do this, then sry but is bullshit. What is whe i don't see but pull one but running solo ???? i just Die, for nothing ? Loose loot(PvE loose loot is Bullshit too, pls change this urgently, is garbage loose loot for mistakes in PvE!!!!!!!).

    I See a lot of Ppl say that the Elite Areas(steelbloom etc) have only 3* Mobs... better change this too, i mean put 1* mobs on entrance, and the more you go in, harde Mob have. Entrance 1-2* Mobs, mid 2-3* Mobs and center/final only 3* Mobs. I think is good so.
  • DeathdockDeathdock Member, Alpha Two
    How does the overall difficulty of 3-star elites feel?

    Overall i would say its in an okay spot with a few greit alot of okay and a few bad encounters in my opinion.
    To of the best desigend mobs are the firestarter and pyromancer, beaues the are a good chalange but when thy come in a groop of 2 or 3. The Sniper are in the same spot.
    Pritty boring are the Gurdiens and defender, they are only HP spoons that you can ignore untill the end and thats ok for a one star enemy but 2 and especialy 3 stars should all have a real threat, overwise its like a dummy. I would like to see some long aoe stuns and silences that are focust on a player that heals the most or deals the most damage to make them more tecnical interms of cc wich slow castbars.

    Do elite creatures feel manageable, overwhelming, easy, or just right?

    For the most part a bit to easy but the high damage ones felt about right. But it would be cool if they would come in groops of 3 to 6 more often so that the hole encounter feels more engaged with more that happens at the same time

    How do you approach these encounters— solo, or in a group?

    Mostly in a groop from 3 to 6

    Are there any encounters with 3-star elites where their mechanics or stats stood out as particularly fun or frustrating?

    Yes there are multible,
    the zombis in front of the tower of carthin that are throwing the poisen on the grond in combination wich the Grim Reaper and the zombis that followed you were a nice combination, i would like to see mier groopes of them together wehre you need to pull all together.

    The Complet Citadel of steelbloom (exept the tank mobs they dont do anithing) is very good even when the high level mobs are a bit easier then the low level ones compeared to the level of the players.

    Extemly unfun is Big Shot hes only anoing becase he has zero thret for the players an wont dy for houers.
  • AzhreiAzhrei Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Vaknar wrote: »
    • How does the overall difficulty of 3-star elites feel?
    • ~It all depends on the underlying archetype. High DPS mobs sometimes just feel like they are living bombs. Whereas, the tank mobs just feel like HP sponges. However, the damage DPS mobs do far outstrips tank mobs. You get WAY more exp for tank mobs. They feel like long term investments. Still feel that way.
    • Do elite creatures feel manageable, overwhelming, easy, or just right?
    • ~For the most part, they feel about the same. However, they do not feel like they are worth the 3 star feel. They just feel more like beefy mobs, not elites. They do not seem to have extra intelligence or abilities. It still feels like you can gather them up and AoE them down. Grindy.
    • How do you approach these encounters— solo, or in a group?
    • ~I can do 1 stars maybe 2 stars solo. However, in groups we just do group aoe farming with some focus targets
    • Are there any encounters with 3-star elites where their mechanics or stats stood out as particularly fun or frustrating?
    • ~Named mobs often have cool abilities. I really appreciate that. When they show up, I tend to pay more attention to them.


    I tend to feel like most 1-3 star mobs are still just mobs. Not that they are really too frustrating. It would be nice if mobs got more cruel as they added stars. Maybe make taunts less effective, have them interrupt or dodge more, focus weaker characters, etc.
  • VeeshanVeeshan Member, Alpha Two
    Figured it would be fun for people to come up with some simple idea's for mob mechanics that could be used for elites if devs so choose.
    Just bare in mind i also write these mechanics based on 3 stars beign somewhat rare and challenging mobs not ur standard 3 stars we currently have which i think should all be shifted to 2 star mobs and have 3 stars rare with mechanics u need to watch out for.


    1. Mob chain pulls a random target this applies a root for 2 seconds on the person they pull, the mobs then windup an uninteruptable melee swing on the person they pulled where the target need to use the block mechanic otherwise they take potential life threatning dmg like 80-100% hp dmg for their level. however blocking in anyform will reduce this dmg by atleast 50% (Simple to avoid just got to be paying attention and have the stamina to block)

    2. Living bomb, Classic from games puts a debuff on a random target that explodes dealing AoE dmg after x amount of time.

    3. Summoner type mob mechanic, places a barrier on themself and continously summons adds until the shield is broken this type of mob should be in a pack of mobs so it punishing's if they dont get focused first, it could also be used on single target boss mobs as a DPS check.

    4. Wolf howling for reinforcements, Wolf type mobs could howl and this will either spawn more wolfs nearby or make wolfs agro X distance from them to pull them into a fight. (The latter would make people be carful of there surroundings when killing the wolfs will work best for a boss wolf i think since it can easily overwhelm people in like wolf den if there not carful with the pulls)

    5. Mobs mechanic that specificly hate a certain action for a class for example there can be a mob that at a certain point the mob/boss shouts something like shut that racket up and if a bard plays a song with 10 seconds of the mob shouting that it will agro the bard for X duration before going back to the tank, the party will have to CC or peel/heal the bard to keep them alive.
    5a. This can also be applied to summon mechanics for example one mobs might be fighting the tank get frustrated the target he attack keeps getting healed does a shout command which summon 2 ranger mobs that would specific fire on clerics which now the cleric need to heal self and tank while dps clears the adds.
    This type can have a version for all classes depedning on the mob

    6. Tank prisons mob mechanic, this can be used on say a boss or group pull nobs for the steamcaster or what ever the water mino is, basicly he locks the tank in a water prison for say 10 seconds or until a berrier is destroyed and is CCed during this time adds ignore the tank in the bubble and will need 2 be picked up by another while the channel gets broken.

    Ill edit and add more as i come up with others but feel free to add more idea below

    Also you should consider adding anti solo mechanics on all 3 stars aswell basicly give them a range root/stun/chain pull or something that they use on people not in melee range that basicly allows the mob to not be kited by range it basicly to allow them to get atleast 1 solid hit off every now and then if there being kited that will eventualy kill a solo trying to kill them slowly
  • TerriblePlazTerriblePlaz Member, Alpha Two
    I will be speaking from the perspective of a Ranger.

    Before the update that buffed elites I felt 1 star mobs were at a good stage I was still able to solo them while still taking a little damage but other wise it was manageable.

    After this new update as a Ranger I can no longer solo 1star bears that are 2 lvls lower than me they have to much health and my DPS cant keep up and with the most recent equipment nerf they now deal alot of damage to me. As a ranger now if I see any 1star elite with more then 6,000 health I know i cant take it.

    Honestly its no longer fun to play Ranger with the combination of the equipment nerf and the elite mob buffs. the reward for soloing 1star elites no longer make the effort it takes to kill them worth it.

    I am aware that other classes have it easier since they are either able to deal more damage or heal themselves but the Ranger now just suffers. Fighters are able to out DPS you with an auto attack bow and and Clerics and Bards have more sustain due to heals.

    In conclusion I do not think the recent Buff to 1 star elites was a good idea with the recent nerf to equipment. you made two drastic changes almost at the same time and now it just hurts. I now deal much less damage take much more damage and mobs now have much more health.

    Rangers are currently suffering.
  • Corpor8Corpor8 Member, Alpha Two
    As all 3 stars are not created equal I think I'm interested in this.

    I can't claim to understand the intention on a 3 star (from a balance to reward perspective) but I can say, I don't think they are a step in the direction of fun.

    The vast majority of builds and setups will never be able to solo unless your way over geared. This means that unless you are already geared, cheating, exploiting, or are in a boring group, you'll never be able to take advantage of getting the best gear. When I say boring group, I'm not saying all groups are boring.

    It would be impossible to describe the best groups for grinding 3 star mobs as "Balanced". 3 Star mob groups are a tank, 2 clerics 1-2 bards (one for mana and one for whatever is needed, often damage buffs) and then the rest all damage. I've seen people fall asleep at the keyboard because with the exceptions of a few interactive mobs, it's just boring circle grinds.

    This happens until someone trains a mob and wiped your group, or the server glitches and mobs respawn wiping the group.

    Your rewarded for boring and just taxed for being willing to spend time uninterested in exploring the world. This isn't the same as having to take time to caravan from one place to another where social interaction can involve politics. One random guy can just pull mobs from all over to you to wipe your group if anyone uses a spellbook, a melee weapon, or any light AOE ability. That's not political RP or resource concerns. Any griefer can and from my experience, is actively doing this.

    I think we should consider going back to the drawing board on what it means to be a 3 star unless it means a boring health sink that can autokill anyone thats not the tank. It's not even an issue of it being a grindy game, it's an issue of accessability to grief and that the time isn't being spent meaningfully.
  • RocketFarmerRocketFarmer Member, Alpha Two
    edited 7:44AM
    Assume a 3 star is intended to be a meaningful foe for a group of 5-8 players in a POI.

    I think the concept of the elite needs to be factored. As some have stated, they should have more mechanics and/or mechanics that are less predictable than their 2 star counterparts.

    Some 3 stars should be unique creatures where they either complement or contrast their mobs. So being elite is just the nature of what they are. No further explanation should be necessary.

    Intelligent 3 star should be more strategic within their POI. They’d have a communications network of runners, or some sort of alarm. If an 8-man group, the intelligent 3 star would be directing their forces against the intruders. If a raid is detected, then there may be a 4 star to report to in order to pull in waves of reinforcements. In other words the fight for the party is more strategic that toe-to-toe fighting, and winning requires a successful strategy to prevent the tides of battle from crashing in.

    Also depends on how the creature type fights or operates. Are they brutes, meaning they are most likely led by something bigger and stronger? Do they rely of numbers? Do they rely on the environment or terrain, enclosed spaces with limited line of sight for example? Are they smart enough to retreat and regroup? Do they employ higher strategies? Are they stationary or mobile with respect to the POI? Do they have access to lower or higher level mobs? Are they only interested in killing or do they capture and demand ransom? Do they change tactics the next time you run into them? Do they take revenge against a node or guild involved in the encounter? Should you learn something about the lore or story by encountering them, especially if they can communicate? Do they negotiate or make deals? For example, do you get new quests from dealing with these elites rather than just killing them? Do the elites view the party as a means to get an upper hand on the politics of a POI? Perhaps an elite has fallen out of favor with the boss and might be willing to provide assistance. Perhaps two parties in the same POI could ally with different sides, which might make for an interesting PVP experience. Or the mastermind elite can even entice two parties to fight one another, say by offering the winner secret treasure, meanwhile preparing for a double cross.

    Translation, they should take longer to defeat other than just being a damage sink so that players don’t come away feeling they would have been better off not even bothering with it. If the fight is intended to take longer then it should perhaps change scenes in between. This is where classic retreat and regroup can come into play.

    And if a POI is full of 3 stars, what makes them elite for that POI? Say they take a little longer to kill, then should you have 1 and 2 stars in between encounters so that the players feel like they are making progress while they proceed to the next big fight. That might also provide the niche for smaller groups to peck at too.
  • burtymcgeeburtymcgee Member, Alpha Two
    • How does the overall difficulty of 3-star elites feel?
    As pointed out by many, 3-star elites feel like damage sponges and in my opinion that's okay. 3-star mobs aren't the highest difficulty mobs but they are the highest most people regularly fight. Progression to pulling and fighting 3-stars at HH feels good, at that level there are certain mobs like pyro and sniper that will one shot party members if they aren't paying attention and if you get multiple become a real danger in any pug group. The same thing goes for all the Points of Interest. Carphin isn't just another Point of Interest, it's a dungeon and to a certain extent all mobs should have higher HP than those at Points of Interest. I guess what I am saying is they shouldn't be squished. They just need a little tinkering maybe a little spice.

    • Do elite creatures feel manageable, overwhelming, easy, or just right?
    Elites feel manageable. Most places and with most standard groups (tank healer bard) you can just free pull in a corner and kill mobs repeatedly. There are areas where you can really screw up and aggro the pat or accidentally pull something with an AOE and you end up with the butt pucker moment, while the moment doesn't feel great is an important aspect of the gameplay feeling lively.

    • How do you approach these encounters— solo, or in a group?
    As a Bard mainly I live in groups and if solo and one is pulled I am booking it as the time investment is too high. It would be nice to see some of our skill percentages go up, namely attack skills. It doesn't feel great having to run or spend 20 minutes whittling away the mob standing on a resource you want to harvest. We're not DPS I get that and it wouldn't make sense given our toolkit but even Clerics have some stopping power.

    • Are there any encounters with 3-star elites where their mechanics or stats stood out as particularly fun or frustrating?
    At Daragal Estates, the Reapers do a little shadow step maneuver that without a tank is challenging to deal with.

    At HH, Snipers and Pyros can easily one shot party members. This is annoying but strikes fear in the players hearts and causes groups to beware of what they are pulling, cursing the names of pyros and snipers.

    At Oakenbane, the... 2 handed sword goblins(forgot their name) are punishing with their whirlwind and need to be handled with care.

    At RoS, the patrol mobs can wipe a party if you aren't expecting it or if people don't understand the mechanics. If you get both the crystal golem and gnarled tree golem you are in a world of hurt.

    All of these are what breathe life into the monotony of grinding out levels.


  • XenotexXenotex Member, Alpha Two
    3 star difficulty should be about mechanics, get rid of that sponge damage stuff, it's just terrible. A good point of reference are the abominations in Sephilion, they can corner a group in bad positioning and wipe an entire group. Fun mechanics to avoid if you know what you're doing.
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  • LinikerLiniker Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I like the high HP and long TTK, even tho in PvP TTK is absolute trash right now being just 3 to 4 seconds, in PvE its good being in the longer side

    what we are missing is hard hitting mechanics and treat/aggro management which is pretty much non existent right now, with a group of 8 theres no challange doing 3 stars, and they were meta due to the xp per hour grinding them
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  • AmarAmar Member, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    I won't speak to combat mechanics but more to density. Currently it feels like unless you're in a party there are places that you just can't even engage in. I would expect this more in named POI and dungeons but not necessarily so dense out in the open world that there's no way to engage the area. At the end of the stress testing the other day I just rode clear out to the tropics since I was level 25. Everything out there was completely untouchable even then solo. I'd like to think that a observant clever adventurous solo can find a path of picking a manageable fight avoiding an obviously deadly one and picking another manageable. A wall of 2 or 3 star elites is kinda boring and becomes well if I stay here I'm just going to die... gotta go get my guildmates and come back but nobody is on. I'm actually very curious to see how you deal with agro on the stealth of rogue when it's introduced, done right that would address everything I just said. However right now I find my ranger just riding through areas of the map as fast as I can instead of looking for content.

    Amar
  • apocrisyapocrisy Member, Alpha Two
    edited 10:26PM
    If you accidentally pull a guardian in highwaymen hills as a group of 5/6 and you commit to it, it'll take you the same time it takes to kill onyxia in classic world of warcraft with gear appropriate players.

    The damage sponge is too much, lower their HP if they got no special mechanic. If they got something the group needs to play around then sure make them take more time, it's a more active gameplay, just sitting there shooting arrows semi afk that deal 20 dmg to a guardian for 8 minutes ain't fun gameplay.
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