Thoughts on current gameplay loop

This will be predominantly centered around the existing grind loops namely as it pertains to points of interests/dungeons. While the game is fundamentally designed to be an open world PVP game which is fantastic as an avid PVPer I feel that there is a missed opportunity with the way dungeons are currently being experienced in practice.

Problem:
1) The inherent dungeon design do seem to have a natural linear progression going through the different areas and tackling the various mobs and eventually making your way to the bosses. The problem though being completely open world is that the experienced reality is that groups just grind the same elites in the same spot ad nauseum instead of being able to experience and truly enjoy these dungeons as they were intended.

Due to this saturation bosses also tend to be perpetually dead with extremely long spawn times (1 hour) meaning in large a lot of times you don't even get to experience them. In large these "dungeons" are relegated to stationary grind spots that lack any further depth or sense of progression. The underlying lore of the dungeon also gets lost in translation as a result.

2) Looking forward to seeing more overall depth and complexity with mechanics when facing mobs/bosses. Which I am sure is something that will be experienced over time and probably as we get higher levels

Solutions
The above is an interesting dilemma as it is fundamentally at odds with the core design principles of the game though I feel strongly that unless this issue is addressed in some way it will truly hinder the long term success and longevity of the game.

Potential suggestions:
1) Despite being completely at odds with the core design introducing an instanced element to dungeons (eventually raids) is tried and tested and a way to experience the depth and complexity of said content

2) Maybe introducing a PVP element where dungeons can be secured solely by a group via PVP for a period of time where they gain temporary access to the dungeon (this however opens the potential problem that bigger groups will probably always retain access)

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Comments

Ludullu

ZepValor wrote: »

The problem though being completely open world is that the experienced reality is that groups just grind the same elites in the same spot ad nauseum instead of being able to experience and truly enjoy these dungeons as they were intended.

But that is exactly how they're intended to be played

And people are supposed to fight over those grind spots, exactly because they're limited and already taken.

ZepValor wrote: »

Due to this saturation bosses also tend to be perpetually dead with extremely long spawn times (1 hour) meaning in large a lot of times you don't even get to experience them. In large these "dungeons" are relegated to stationary grind spots that lack any further depth or sense of progression. The underlying lore of the dungeon also gets lost in translation as a result.

Same as above. This is the intended design.

ZepValor wrote: »

Potential suggestions:
1) Despite being completely at odds with the core design introducing an instanced element to dungeons (eventually raids) is tried and tested and a way to experience the depth and complexity of said content

We'll have instanced dungeons later on. They'll comprise 20% of all the dungeons in the game.

ZepValor wrote: »

2) Maybe introducing a PVP element where dungeons can be secured solely by a group via PVP for a period of time where they gain temporary access to the dungeon (this however opens the potential problem that bigger groups will probably always retain access)

This is already an option. People are just pussies and don't fight back, so instead attackers have to pull mobs onto other parties, in hopes of wiping them through pve.

Once node and guild wars get fleshed out, I'd imagine this will be a way smoother experience.

Azherae

ZepValor wrote: »

Maybe introducing a PVP element where dungeons can be secured solely by a group via PVP for a period of time where they gain temporary access to the dungeon (this however opens the potential problem that bigger groups will probably always retain access)

Based on the outcome of the game that has this, it would probably not work in Ashes without being a massive pain relative to the way exp is granted to parties during the grind.

It's lots of FUN, but Ashes has exp debt, durability loss, and item drop on death.

Based on how even the 'top guilds' in TL react to 'starting to consistently lose', I'd say it won't help, the majority of players of highly competitive MMORPGs still have the same weaknesses (and therefore reactions) as they always have.

I'm sure we'll get there someday, but I'd disagree with even the TL style of 'claim dungeon through PvP' in Ashes, and I wouldn't expect any of the other implementations (PvP to get to a portal or door) to work long term, now that I've got enough data to calibrate my expectations of players.

ZepValor

But that is exactly how they're intended to be played And people are supposed to fight over those grind spots, exactly because they're limited and already taken.

I don't entirely agree with this, even in the showcases when the Devs go through these open world "dungeons" they go through the natural linear progression they offer and eventually work their way to the bosses as you would normally expect to experience any dungeon.

Also lets say I did agree that the devs actually intended this to be the case, standing still in one spot grinding the same mobs ad nauseum is unequivocally and objectively poor game design by any imaginable metric. So again it warrants revisiting what is honestly an extremely poor implementation.

This one thing alone will actually kill any long term success the game will ever hope of having and will relegate it to a very small niche player base which is a shame for such an ambition mmo in this day of age which holds so much promise.

The reality is that these points of "friction" are in theory supposed to entice PVP but they don't because of how punitive the corruption system is eclipsing any perceived reward. It just isn't worth it and people are cheese de-aggroing mobs onto groups as a way to contest spots instead of engaging in actual PVP. Though that is a completely separate topic all together that would warrant its own dedicated discussion.

Having a PVP focused game is fine but alienating the PVE aspect of the game is a death sentence. You can look at any PVP focused mmo in the last 20 years and draw this simple conclusion. In more recent history look at how BDO had to drastically pivot just to stay alive.

Its ok to have complex and fun PVE gameplay loops and not everything has to have a PVP element. Especially when the current implementation is a far cry that needs drastic re-iteration. Again losing gear, which is hard to come by, to PVP means the vast majority of players simply are not going to engage in it.

What is the point of having an open world dungeon in the first place if groups are just standing still grinding the same mobs like any other normal grind spot. At that point it becomes a false narrative to even categorize these areas as "dungeons".

There really is no reason for their not to be fun group play PVE content with actual mob/boss mechanics past simply grinding in the same spot as the only current end game loop.

Edit:
So simplistically they really need to introduce both traditional instanced PVE content dungeons/raids. As well as open world dungeons/bosses and I would be super happy with that.

Ludullu

ZepValor wrote: »

I don't entirely agree with this, even in the showcases when the Devs go through these open world "dungeons" they go through the natural linear progression they offer and eventually work their way to the bosses as you would normally expect to experience any dungeon.

They are showing off the full dungeon, so of course they need to show off everything.

Also, mobs at the end of the dungeon will be at higher lvls than the ones at the start of the dungeon, and the game's supposed difficulty will not let you farm the mobs at the end of the dungeon if you're at the lvl of the earlier mobs.

ZepValor wrote: »

Also lets say I did agree that the devs actually intended this to be the case, standing still in one spot grinding the same mobs ad nauseum is unequivocally and objectively poor game design by any imaginable metric. So again it warrants revisiting what is honestly an extremely poor implementation.

It's a poor design for you and for others, while for some people it's the perfect design (this includes me and a ton of players who like grindy games with pvp in them).

ZepValor wrote: »

This one thing alone will actually kill any long term success the game will ever hope of having and will relegate it to a very small niche player base which is a shame for such an ambition mmo in this day of age which holds so much promise.

Year after year, showcase after showcase, Steven keeps saying "this will be a niche game and that's fine". Intrepid know what they're building and they're targeting certain audiences with their product.

ZepValor wrote: »

The reality is that these points of "friction" are in theory supposed to entice PVP but they don't because of how punitive the corruption system is eclipsing any perceived reward. It just isn't worth it and people are cheese de-aggroing mobs onto groups as a way to contest spots instead of engaging in actual PVP. Though that is a completely separate topic all together that would warrant its own dedicated discussion.

Corruption balancing is overtuned for Alpha, in order to let people test more stuff w/o being attacked as often. And at some point we'll test a laxer balancing, along with more fleshed out pvp mechanics (namely, fully working guild and node wars).

ZepValor wrote: »

Having a PVP focused game is fine but alienating the PVE aspect of the game is a death sentence. You can look at any PVP focused mmo in the last 20 years and draw this simple conclusion. In more recent history look at how BDO had to drastically pivot just to stay alive.

The pve that we have right now is nowhere near what is planned for the game. Or, well, at least what was promised to be in the game.

ZepValor wrote: »

Its ok to have complex and fun PVE gameplay loops and not everything has to have a PVP element. Especially when the current implementation is a far cry that needs drastic re-iteration. Again losing gear, which is hard to come by, to PVP means the vast majority of players simply are not going to engage in it.

You only lose gear if you murder someone who didn't fight back. In proper pvp fights you gain half the death penalty of a green player. In pvp events like guild/node wars you're supposed to only gain gear decay on death.

ZepValor wrote: »

What is the point of having an open world dungeon in the first place if groups are just standing still grinding the same mobs like any other normal grind spot. At that point it becomes a false narrative to even categorize these areas as "dungeons".

These are dungeons from the earlier games in the genre. Namely korean games. And more precisely Lineage 2.

The point is for people to farm items while locking others out of said items, which forces those others to use pvp as a means of securing their own items.

ZepValor wrote: »

There really is no reason for their not to be fun group play PVE content with actual mob/boss mechanics past simply grinding in the same spot as the only current end game loop.

So simplistically they really need to introduce both traditional instanced PVE content dungeons/raids. As well as open world dungeons/bosses and I would be super happy with that.

Like I already said, we'll have instanced dungeons. They won't have the rewards that you can get in open world ones, but they'll be present to give a different kind of pve content to people. And the pve in general will become better with time.

In other words, read the wiki and see where the game plans to go, rather than looking at it right now and judging from that
https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Engaging_and_immersive_story

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