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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Feedback from a Leatherworker point of view
Zrakle
Member, Alpha Two
in Artisanship
Let me preface this with __ I do love the concepts of this game but those concepts need a HELL of a lot of work.
Feedback from a Leatherworkers (Artisan) viewpoint.
To make level 10-20 gear - the Leatherworker needs to:
1) Gain 10 levels in Hunting
2) Gain 10 levels Tanning
3) Gain 10 levels in Leatherworking
4) Needs to adventure enough to have coin to pay for the processing 4c and the crafting 50c ( I believe this is base cost - Taxes not included - so more of course.
5) And after all that, still will needs assist from a farmer and weaver for thread.
6) Plus - it cannot even start until a node has advanced enough to make a proper station for the Hunting, Tanning and Leatherworking crafts.
All the while the Adventure types are out buying buffs(food/scroll) they need from vendors and getting gear they need from mob drops. In my guild they are already level 20+ and still have no real need for crafts. It is literally my guild leaders plan to grind to 25 so can go do top bosses and PvP. If you want a successful artisan system - this needs to change. If they can acquire gear and buffs without supporting a crafter -- they have no incentive to do so. As a side note here - my guild has been quite awesome in acquiring carcasses for me - but since they can get gear elsewhere - they have very little need for any of the gear I can make as a novice crafter unless I can be lucky enough to make something of quality - usually rare or above preferred - to cover an area where they may have not gotten a drop.
So while leatherworker is grinding 30 plus levels over 3 skills to make 10-20 gear - the adventurer is just grinding one skill. This needs changed VERY quickly. They need to rely on the crafter as much as the crafter relies on them. Many I have talked to have no problem with the gathering - however - it is a side thought. It needs to become an equal focus from day one.
Now a breakdown/comments of the actual skills of Leatherworking:
Hunting:
The process here is a certain/limited amount of creature can be hunted for carcasses or live beasts. I do not know the actual data so I will just go with a 50/50 chance for either. Now out of that 50% of carcasses, the need is further divided between Leather worker and Cooking. This has had a great effect on the tanning skill. Although I have been able to attain level 10 in Hunting, my Tanning skill has not. (See below)
Tanning:
This process has a cost so time must be spent acquiring coinage (base 4c per process I think without taxes and I guess over 500 processes needed). The biggest problem is Carcasses -- so few available that while both Hunting and Leatherworking have attained level 10 - Tanning is still at level 6 (was level 7 in Phase 1 with the other skills at 10)
Leatherworking:
Requires a cost, so also time must be spent acquiring coinage (believe base cost is 50c per process with somewhere over 500 processes needed). There is a LOT of clicking required at each process but from my experience - the excessive clicking is a commonality of the crafting profession.
Although I cannot see the big picture - here are a few ideas from my limited viewpoint:
1) As soon as it becomes possible - wipe server and require a fresh start of actual expectations. I think true Data is needed to adjust things properly - not the data that is affected by node advancements and other erroneous inputs from the dev team to advance certain aspects. This should make gathering/harvesting an equal priority to adventure types - assisting the crafters and reducing one of the skills required to level.
2) Keep hunting as an AH skill but maybe change the killing of certain mobs to a loot option scenario - like choice of glint or carcass - along with the other drop items as in emblems, runes - etc etc.
3) DO NOT put items on vendor - make it so food is needed from a cook, scrolls are needed from a scribe, salves are needed from an alchemist and weapons and armor are needed from the appropriate crafter. Maybe keep quests and drops available - but do not make them a higher quality than uncommon.
Feedback from a Leatherworkers (Artisan) viewpoint.
To make level 10-20 gear - the Leatherworker needs to:
1) Gain 10 levels in Hunting
2) Gain 10 levels Tanning
3) Gain 10 levels in Leatherworking
4) Needs to adventure enough to have coin to pay for the processing 4c and the crafting 50c ( I believe this is base cost - Taxes not included - so more of course.
5) And after all that, still will needs assist from a farmer and weaver for thread.
6) Plus - it cannot even start until a node has advanced enough to make a proper station for the Hunting, Tanning and Leatherworking crafts.
All the while the Adventure types are out buying buffs(food/scroll) they need from vendors and getting gear they need from mob drops. In my guild they are already level 20+ and still have no real need for crafts. It is literally my guild leaders plan to grind to 25 so can go do top bosses and PvP. If you want a successful artisan system - this needs to change. If they can acquire gear and buffs without supporting a crafter -- they have no incentive to do so. As a side note here - my guild has been quite awesome in acquiring carcasses for me - but since they can get gear elsewhere - they have very little need for any of the gear I can make as a novice crafter unless I can be lucky enough to make something of quality - usually rare or above preferred - to cover an area where they may have not gotten a drop.
So while leatherworker is grinding 30 plus levels over 3 skills to make 10-20 gear - the adventurer is just grinding one skill. This needs changed VERY quickly. They need to rely on the crafter as much as the crafter relies on them. Many I have talked to have no problem with the gathering - however - it is a side thought. It needs to become an equal focus from day one.
Now a breakdown/comments of the actual skills of Leatherworking:
Hunting:
The process here is a certain/limited amount of creature can be hunted for carcasses or live beasts. I do not know the actual data so I will just go with a 50/50 chance for either. Now out of that 50% of carcasses, the need is further divided between Leather worker and Cooking. This has had a great effect on the tanning skill. Although I have been able to attain level 10 in Hunting, my Tanning skill has not. (See below)
Tanning:
This process has a cost so time must be spent acquiring coinage (base 4c per process I think without taxes and I guess over 500 processes needed). The biggest problem is Carcasses -- so few available that while both Hunting and Leatherworking have attained level 10 - Tanning is still at level 6 (was level 7 in Phase 1 with the other skills at 10)
Leatherworking:
Requires a cost, so also time must be spent acquiring coinage (believe base cost is 50c per process with somewhere over 500 processes needed). There is a LOT of clicking required at each process but from my experience - the excessive clicking is a commonality of the crafting profession.
Although I cannot see the big picture - here are a few ideas from my limited viewpoint:
1) As soon as it becomes possible - wipe server and require a fresh start of actual expectations. I think true Data is needed to adjust things properly - not the data that is affected by node advancements and other erroneous inputs from the dev team to advance certain aspects. This should make gathering/harvesting an equal priority to adventure types - assisting the crafters and reducing one of the skills required to level.
2) Keep hunting as an AH skill but maybe change the killing of certain mobs to a loot option scenario - like choice of glint or carcass - along with the other drop items as in emblems, runes - etc etc.
3) DO NOT put items on vendor - make it so food is needed from a cook, scrolls are needed from a scribe, salves are needed from an alchemist and weapons and armor are needed from the appropriate crafter. Maybe keep quests and drops available - but do not make them a higher quality than uncommon.
4
Comments
Hunting in its current iteration is 1% hunting and 99% farming npc’s to force the spawn. As grem skins (river stalker gear) are the only way to get to 10 leatherworking, this involves camping the better grem spawns to force the hunting animal spawn which is just leveling but very suboptimally. This is by far the main time requirement to get apprentice leatherworking. 95+% of my time spent to attain a crafting cert is killing npc’s out in the world. I don’t see how this has anything to do with artisanship or crafting.
Many crafters are planning to vertically integrate so while not specifically a leatherworking issue; many leatherworkers who don’t have a decent sized guild feeding them carcasses will find most of their time “crafting” spent killing npc’s.
I don’t mind a grind for crafts (if down the road, crafted gear is actually valuable), but the current implementation involves doing nothing related to any of the skills needed for the craft, then a dopamine rush clicking simulator to go from 1 to 10. For a game where crafting is supposed to matter, the current flow of resources can be improved drastically.
the whole "we need level 10 hunting, tanning, leatherworking, AND we need farmers for cotton etc, etc. is perfectly designed.
also, remember that in the late game you can only have 2 grandmaster artisan skills. the intention is that NOBODY for any artisan skill wil be able to hunt, tan and then craft something themselves.
ignoring the fact that to craft grandmaster leather items you need grandmaster wood, linen, metal etc. which will require grandmaster gatherers and processes. so you already need someone else's help.
dial this down to journeyman (the current limit because of apprentiship buildings) and i dont see a problem here inthe slightest.
late-game design is that for you to even obtain and craft a grandmaster top tier item assuming you have grandmaster leatherworking and grandmaster tanning, you REQUIRE by minimum 1 other player to provide the animal with grandmaster hunting which you cannot have.
and again, that doesnt even include the third person youll need at grandmaster woodcutting + woodworking to gather and process wood. and the third person with grandmaster herbalism + weaving to gather and process thread.
so if your craftable item requires, leather, thread and planks of all top quality you need a minimum of 3 people.
I agree with you all that the current system's idea is perfect but it needs a little bit of rework and rebalance.
1) Can't agree more, right now gathering/harvesting seems like the least effective way to gear up when it should be equally good as dropping or, even better, complementing it. (BALANCE)
2) Yes, Hunting seems really off... it needs a total rework.
What about even from the lowest animal you could gather a very lower tier carcass that you need like 10 of this to make a 1 good carcass?... it would also helps to level up Tannering and Hunting faster. As we say in point 1), currently it is not worthy the time you spend leveling it up at expense of leveling the character. Grind is good, but it has to be rewarding and not boring in excess.
3) I agree, anything that encourage the market economy but for this to work we would need a "public" market in the starting areas. Right now I am level 6 and I would love to sell or buy mats... I understand I need to be a citizen to be able to make a Stall and also that I need to be level 10 so.... (maybe I got it wrong, but nothing inside the game explains it)
What can I add?
1. As a low level player that tries to have the level of artisanship and the character level at the same pace, questing, gathering and grinding I do find a little bit annoying to have the novice? stations scattered "across" the initial area... can't we have it together at lionhold? (I mean, we already do have stations there but it is only for the tutorial)
Generally I like crafting, although my focus in a MMO is on PvP. So I have leveled up the following:
- herbalism to lvl 10+
- hunting to lvl 10+
- lumber to lvl 10
- weaving to lvl 9
- tanning to lvl 6
- leatherworking to lvl 10
all things done to craft medium armor (lvl 10)... without success because of lacking tanning to lvl 10 (carcass)... what a pity, because most of the players now want to have lvl 20gear, which felt to be light years away to be crafted (for me)...
Crafting in general:
I think it's important that all the items that could be crafted, should be possible to craft during your journey along to lvl 50. If this is not the case and crafting (in general) is an excessive effort, only the items of endgear/grandmaster (lvl50) will matter to be crafted (+ rarity)...
=> in consequence as a result:
- all other items of lower level are useless (noone is interested in a crafted heroic level 0... item)
- all the effort (time = money for the dev team) to design and implement such a complex system, is a waste of time, if only less than 5% of the craftable items are attractive (think of all the items that have to be implemented in game, while noone cares about them...)
- every crafter will speed up to reach the "endgame"(grandmaster) in crafting, regardless of anything he has crafted the way along to grandmaster...
but maybe I'm wrong and I am the only one with these feelings :-)
AoC Chars: Hammil (Cleric) | Anthara (Ranger)
Server: Lotharia (EU)
I agree. I understand that at the Grand Master level your profession is dependent on other characters, but requiring practically EVERY other profession is a bit much. I would like to see at the GM level an interaction with 3 maybe 4 other professions MAX, but the way it is now you are dependent on at least 4 and each of those are dependent on at least 4 its just over the top.
The other thing I would like to see is to have this dependency reduced per tier. So at novice you need say one or two other profession to provide materials or such, it's NOVICE level, your still just learning the basics, why does it have to be tied to 7 other professions. Then at every other tier add in another dependent profession so that at GM you interact with 4 or 5 other professions (that still makes you dependent on at least 2 other people or as many as 5 other people).
Since this is a leatherworking topic, lets look specifically at that.
The most efficient leveling recipe is River Stalker boots or gloves, these take 2 grem skin and 1 cotton thread. the grem skin takes a hunter to gather the grem, and a tanner to skin the grem. the cotton thread takes a farmer to grow the cotton, a weaver to process the cotton into thread, and someone to farm the droppings required for the farming. Then you need to do the actual craft exactly 267 times to advance to apprentice, if you are not getting some kind of crafting xp boost.
Maybe lets try something like this...
Hunters gather carcasses (though I really believe you should be able to skin your beast kills and have the carcasses provide a significantly higher xp / material amount from tanning) and deliver to tanner, tanner then processes and can also obtain cordage (whether this is leather strips or sinew or just call it cordage) as another material like bones and fat. This cordage and skin gets delivered to the leatherworker who then makes the gloves and boots from 2 grem skin and 1 leather cordage. Now there is no dependence on a farmer, weaver, or droppings gatherer. This is the base and is tied to three other professions, at say the journeyman level add in another profession then at grand master add another one.
Final thoughts... I love crafting in every MMO, but the leveling of tanning in this current state has just about broken me. It is by far and away the worst crafting leveling experience I have ever had to endure.
I don't understand the thinking behind placing everything we make on a vendor for a few silver. I know the vendor just has common gear but it can work just fine until the player levels into the next tier of armor.
Putting crafted items on vendors kicks the legs out from under the crafters.
This common armor being sold on the market would help support the crafters and create a demand for their goods.
Having the items on a vendor creates a price ceiling that completely ruins any hope for a market.
This is on top of too many resources needed to make about anything. By the time you gather the resources, everyone has out leveled the need for the crafted items,