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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Artisan skill system feedback
odishy
Member, Alpha Two
Many games talk about a player led economy and robust artisan systems, but ultimately are just a late game grind and resource sink. Not a foundational part of the game.
Ashes though has a promising foundation to actually deliver this. However, there are some flaws that need addressed or that foundation will crack. This post is meant to help identify those cracks now.
Let's first start with friction and why it's a double edge sword. Some will say friction is bad, but is it? If a lv 1 grem gave 1 billion experience, friction removed right? So instead we should always ask why are we adding friction? What is the value of that friction? If we don't have an answer, then remove the friction.
Think what genre of game provides the best crafting experience? I would argue survival games, crafting and progression are tightly coupled. Progressing requires multiple systems working in tandem. You need to explore to craft, you need to craft to explore. Friction requires you to advance them in tandem, this is the model I would use. We just adapt this model to a massive multiplayer experience. You can specialize or focus on one area and rely on other players to fill in the rest.
Let's start with artisan skill progression. At lv 1 everyone can do everything. You start as a novice for free in every skill. Let's compare this to class progression. How would an MMO feel if every class started as a novice in every archetype? Some games do this and I wouldn't recommend it. It waters down the uniqueness of what that class is, it removes the identity and therefore the value of the class. So why would we do this with artisan progression?
Instead I propose you get 1 artisan skill point and can choose 1 novice skill. Once you max that skill with the current tier, you get another point. So if you start as a lumberjack and you get lumberjacking to lv 10. You can choose to either pick up a new novice skill or become an apprentice lumberjack. You still use the current caps of how many of each tier you can have, but you have to earn every skill. Making vertical vs horizontal progression a real choice from lv 1.
This also forces player interaction from day 1. It teaches the community the value of coordination and builds those muscles early. While also making every profession valuable, worth investing in.
Next is the value of gathering, processing, and crafting. Let's start at the end and work backwards.
Artisan value is finished products that players use. If a final product doesn't have value, then why build it? Final products should never be resource sinks or grind for the sake of grind. This is friction for the sake of friction and bad design.
Instead ask does this item have value? If the answer is no, then remove it as an option or give it value. This can be done by adding friction to other areas (talk about later), removing friction (cost) to built it, or buffing the item.
Once we decide a final product has value, let's consider what value does processing add to that/those items? Again if processing is just a mandatory part of the system, but doesn't add value then remove it. Friction for the sake of friction is bad, so what value does processing add? If you take uncommon materials and make uncommon processed materials, what's the point? Each decision/action must have value.
Gathering has value built in. However, the question for gathering is how much of the value is gathering vs the final product. If gathered resources are worth more than the final product, the system is broken. This is a nonnegotiable.
Next let's think about alternative paths or competition for artisans. This comes in 2 ways.
First is vendors. Vendors can sell stuff that crafters would otherwise craft. If vendors offer anything even close to what artisans craft, players will simply bypass crafters. Vendors instead should only be an option of last resort, friction must be added to dissuade vendors. High prices, poor quality/availability, ect. Vendors are the floor and should be viewed that way.
Next is mobs and this will be controversial... But mob loot tables shouldn't compete with crafters. Instead they should supplement crafters. The 2 systems shouldn't compete, but instead be dependent upon each other.
What do I mean? Mobs shouldn't drop gear, or gear drops should be low quality or very rare. Loot tables need significant friction to ensure it doesn't replace crafters. Crafters shouldn't make "the best shit", they should make "all the shit".
Instead mobs should drop stuff that enables crafting of better items. Either through ingredients or recipes.
Next let's talk about nodes and player services. Node progression is how the world changes. What vendors sell, what crafters can make, what services are available, ect. This shouldn't be static, it should change with node progression or destruction.
This includes and again controversial... Repairing gear. Meaning if a player cannot craft something at a station, a player cannot repair at that station. This creates a hard link between nodes, artisans, and adventurers. If the world devolves you devolve with it.
Next let's talk about how to remove artisan friction. Player interaction should be easy. Friction that makes it harder for players to interact is generally bad. Player stalls/markets should exist everywhere that a crafting station exists. This means nodes & freeholds, but yes this also means starting areas. Briarwood farms should be a market hub, selling low level gear to low level players is just as important as selling high level gear to high level players.
Lastly, and only loosely related. Glint should be trade able. Caravans shouldn't be a forced mechanic but rather an opt in. A way to add to the market and enable the other systems. Glint would gain market value and risk vs reward would balance around the glint market price. Caravans are risky? Glint is cheap. Caravans are safe? Glint is expensive.
Ashes though has a promising foundation to actually deliver this. However, there are some flaws that need addressed or that foundation will crack. This post is meant to help identify those cracks now.
Let's first start with friction and why it's a double edge sword. Some will say friction is bad, but is it? If a lv 1 grem gave 1 billion experience, friction removed right? So instead we should always ask why are we adding friction? What is the value of that friction? If we don't have an answer, then remove the friction.
Think what genre of game provides the best crafting experience? I would argue survival games, crafting and progression are tightly coupled. Progressing requires multiple systems working in tandem. You need to explore to craft, you need to craft to explore. Friction requires you to advance them in tandem, this is the model I would use. We just adapt this model to a massive multiplayer experience. You can specialize or focus on one area and rely on other players to fill in the rest.
Let's start with artisan skill progression. At lv 1 everyone can do everything. You start as a novice for free in every skill. Let's compare this to class progression. How would an MMO feel if every class started as a novice in every archetype? Some games do this and I wouldn't recommend it. It waters down the uniqueness of what that class is, it removes the identity and therefore the value of the class. So why would we do this with artisan progression?
Instead I propose you get 1 artisan skill point and can choose 1 novice skill. Once you max that skill with the current tier, you get another point. So if you start as a lumberjack and you get lumberjacking to lv 10. You can choose to either pick up a new novice skill or become an apprentice lumberjack. You still use the current caps of how many of each tier you can have, but you have to earn every skill. Making vertical vs horizontal progression a real choice from lv 1.
This also forces player interaction from day 1. It teaches the community the value of coordination and builds those muscles early. While also making every profession valuable, worth investing in.
Next is the value of gathering, processing, and crafting. Let's start at the end and work backwards.
Artisan value is finished products that players use. If a final product doesn't have value, then why build it? Final products should never be resource sinks or grind for the sake of grind. This is friction for the sake of friction and bad design.
Instead ask does this item have value? If the answer is no, then remove it as an option or give it value. This can be done by adding friction to other areas (talk about later), removing friction (cost) to built it, or buffing the item.
Once we decide a final product has value, let's consider what value does processing add to that/those items? Again if processing is just a mandatory part of the system, but doesn't add value then remove it. Friction for the sake of friction is bad, so what value does processing add? If you take uncommon materials and make uncommon processed materials, what's the point? Each decision/action must have value.
Gathering has value built in. However, the question for gathering is how much of the value is gathering vs the final product. If gathered resources are worth more than the final product, the system is broken. This is a nonnegotiable.
Next let's think about alternative paths or competition for artisans. This comes in 2 ways.
First is vendors. Vendors can sell stuff that crafters would otherwise craft. If vendors offer anything even close to what artisans craft, players will simply bypass crafters. Vendors instead should only be an option of last resort, friction must be added to dissuade vendors. High prices, poor quality/availability, ect. Vendors are the floor and should be viewed that way.
Next is mobs and this will be controversial... But mob loot tables shouldn't compete with crafters. Instead they should supplement crafters. The 2 systems shouldn't compete, but instead be dependent upon each other.
What do I mean? Mobs shouldn't drop gear, or gear drops should be low quality or very rare. Loot tables need significant friction to ensure it doesn't replace crafters. Crafters shouldn't make "the best shit", they should make "all the shit".
Instead mobs should drop stuff that enables crafting of better items. Either through ingredients or recipes.
Next let's talk about nodes and player services. Node progression is how the world changes. What vendors sell, what crafters can make, what services are available, ect. This shouldn't be static, it should change with node progression or destruction.
This includes and again controversial... Repairing gear. Meaning if a player cannot craft something at a station, a player cannot repair at that station. This creates a hard link between nodes, artisans, and adventurers. If the world devolves you devolve with it.
Next let's talk about how to remove artisan friction. Player interaction should be easy. Friction that makes it harder for players to interact is generally bad. Player stalls/markets should exist everywhere that a crafting station exists. This means nodes & freeholds, but yes this also means starting areas. Briarwood farms should be a market hub, selling low level gear to low level players is just as important as selling high level gear to high level players.
Lastly, and only loosely related. Glint should be trade able. Caravans shouldn't be a forced mechanic but rather an opt in. A way to add to the market and enable the other systems. Glint would gain market value and risk vs reward would balance around the glint market price. Caravans are risky? Glint is cheap. Caravans are safe? Glint is expensive.
2
Comments
I agree with most points except those ive quoted. Let me begin with why:
Mob Drops: Any good and fun MMO in my opinion should have some good/decent mob drops for us that want to grind mobs and play with out friends, without spending hours farming caravans or other methods to squeeze out every last penny pinched coin in order to buy anything or get anywhere. I do believe it should on average be decent, not overpowered or underpowered, and very rarely drop stuff that is very very good (like heroic). It adds a ton of fun to just see things that drop and roll for them in the classic MMO style of the game. I do agree that crafting should be a big part of the game, but the current iteration just isnt good. Crafting should off the same and also unique items at the same levels as those dropped by mobs, but with the ability to guarantee quality and improvement over those items. For example, lets say a mob drops a lvl 10 bow with 100 damage, with 100 being on the low end of that roll and the high end being 120, the crafted item should always be the high end, and the dropped item, should be random but weighted more twords the low end (so that they still have a chance for "muh good drops."
In other games I love leveling up my crafting side-by side with my adventuring but its impossible to do in this one. In the time it took me to get from level 1 to level 14, I would have only gained like 5 levels in carpentry, by the time I level it to 10, ill be needing 20 gear for myself (if I did them together).
Node Progression:
I think too many things are already locked behind node progression and its abysmally slow, there are areas I love to grind in my server but there arent any mobs there because on alpha II part II, the nodes are locked at to low of a level for them to spawn. I do agree that whats inside the village should correspond to the nodes, but we need to have it make sense, bigger city, better market etc. I disagree on removing the ability to repair, or else on baby nodes you wont have the ability and I rather keep what I got instead of having to make new ones, this isnt ultima.
I think loot tables being at the low end and crafting being at the high end is a good compromise.