Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Caravans and the economy - a system that needs work
Amayazin
Member, Alpha Two
As a new player with very little context into the game, I spent most of my early levels wondering 'how do I make money?'. I couldn't repair my gear, because it cost more than the meager silver I had managed to acquire. I couldn't attempt to do crafting skills, because I had no money to do them. There needs to be a valid way in the economy to acquire money at a low level, and the economy of the game needs to be more effectively spelled out for a new player. Usually you don't just vendor resources in a video game for money, because that is a waste of a resource. But you can't sell player to player on the marketplace until towns get that ability, and a new player may not be in that town. It also isn't clear what to look for. The economy is a giant black box that new players will look at and become frustrated and leave because it is not designed for a new or solo player.
I was told "do caravans to make money! Your glint will be worth more when you sell it when you do a caravan"
Let me explain what this process looks like as a new player who has no idea what is going on. Then I will elaborate on the details needed to actually make this a feasible process for a new player to partake in.
So I proceeded to do a caravan. I went to the guy who gave me a quest and he told me to get 60 wood and 60 stone and put it in crates and take it to another town. I had room for a little glint, so I put that in there, having been told it was worth more. First I had to vendor things in order to get the 10 silver to buy the caravan, and another 10 silver to launch the caravan. So now, I am totally broke again. I do the caravan quest. Upon reaching the other side, I am rewarded with.... no money! The materials I brought on the caravan are worth exactly the same as when I left. (In fact, it seems mine glitched and my glint was now worth 0 copper when I tried to sell it in the other city).
So back to chat I go, and I learn that actually, I have to find a hunting lodge and buy commodities and take THAT on a caravan. So farm some more glint and I go back and buy some commodities, remembering that the crate the caravan master had instructed me to use was a 3x3 box. I try to put commodities in a box, only to find out nope, you cant seal them in a box. Back to chat and someone says oh THOSE just got straight onto your caravan. Well now I have cargo that is too large to fit on my caravan. So now I'm broke, have items that are too big for a caravan, and need to farm more items. I finally get the items. I buy the little fruit packs and put them onto my caravan. 10 more silver into the abyss. Off I go.
Halfway to my destination, some level 25s attack my caravan. I lose everything. So now, in my attempt to figure out how to make money from being completely broke, I have spent and lost over 30silver on attempting to do the caravan economy, I have nothing to show for it, I have no money, and I still can't repair my gear from the multiple deaths I got trying to get my caravan. Not surprising, a level 25 beats a newbie level 15 support class any day.
How does a new player enter into the economy? How do they level if their gear is broken and they cannot repair it? Why does that new player stick around and keep playing the game?
I'll add that I also did a caravan defense, and I also received nothing. There is no incentive to join a caravan and defend them. There is only incentive to join a caravan, attack them, kill the low level player, and take the meager amount of money they have.
1. There needs to be a method in the economy for low level players to make enough silver to sustain their leveling and repairs. Humanoid mobs could drop meager amounts of copper, there could be quests that reward copper, or other options that allow players to earn enough money. Because you absolutely don't by just playing the game.
2. The Caravan system needs to be FAR better explained. The tooltips need additional information on how to effectively utilize the system. It needs to be clear that in order to make money from a caravan, you need to purchase commodities. It needs to be clear where to BUY those commodities. It needs to be clear that you DONT put commodities in crates, which was the only method taught by the caravan quest. Maybe this needs to be a second caravan quest after you complete the first one so that people are walked through the process. As a new player completing the first quest and losing all my money to do so, I see no reason to engage with the caravan system.
3. There needs to be a reward for DOING that caravan quest. LOSING money on a quest is really unrewarding. The meager amount of glint I got for wasting an hour and a half of my day on a caravan sold for less money than the cost of launching the caravan. That is unacceptable.
4. There needs to be a reward for DEFENDING a caravan. There needs to be encouragement to not just gank a low level player and steal their stuff. If not, you will never get NEW players into the game and the game will die. I escorted a caravan, not knowing what it was, because I got a pop up event. I clicked defend because I didn't want to attack anyone. I spent an hour following them around and when I got them to their destination the event ended and I got nothing. If the game is going to make the caravan an event people can join, then the game needs to reward people for doing that. If not, you just get high level players continuing to go around killing low level players caravans because there is no incentive to defend and every incentive to kill.
5. Consider implementing protection for low level players on their first few caravans. Give them the opportunity to learn the system and explore and earn enough money to level to a higher level so that they can actually engage in combat for their caravan, if this is going to be forced onto them. If I don't have enough silver to repair my gear, I can't level and get to the point where I can engage with the rest of the game or the economy.
There should be ways to earn money effectively in the game that do not involve gambling. Running a caravan is gambling. Not eveyone likes gambling. Give me the option to stay in PvE mode where I can't be attacked but for lesser reward. Give me other options to make money that aren't spending an hour chopping trees to earn 1 silver. I can't engage effectively with the game without there being more than one way to make money, and it seems like the only way is to be a high level person with high level friends doing a caravan.
Ultimately, the game should do more to discourage high level, bored players from actively griefing low level players just trying to learn how to play the game and engage with the community and economy. The game will not survive if it does not have methods for new players to integrate into the existing systems. I was excited about the trading and farming systems, but now, I feel like there is no way for me to engage in these systems effectively. I never will be able to defend my caravan alone as a support class player, and other players have no reason to defend me without earning a reward themselves.
The system is ineffective, and it's not fun. We need options to support a broad player base, not just the max levels who don't care about anyone but themselves.
I was told "do caravans to make money! Your glint will be worth more when you sell it when you do a caravan"
Let me explain what this process looks like as a new player who has no idea what is going on. Then I will elaborate on the details needed to actually make this a feasible process for a new player to partake in.
So I proceeded to do a caravan. I went to the guy who gave me a quest and he told me to get 60 wood and 60 stone and put it in crates and take it to another town. I had room for a little glint, so I put that in there, having been told it was worth more. First I had to vendor things in order to get the 10 silver to buy the caravan, and another 10 silver to launch the caravan. So now, I am totally broke again. I do the caravan quest. Upon reaching the other side, I am rewarded with.... no money! The materials I brought on the caravan are worth exactly the same as when I left. (In fact, it seems mine glitched and my glint was now worth 0 copper when I tried to sell it in the other city).
So back to chat I go, and I learn that actually, I have to find a hunting lodge and buy commodities and take THAT on a caravan. So farm some more glint and I go back and buy some commodities, remembering that the crate the caravan master had instructed me to use was a 3x3 box. I try to put commodities in a box, only to find out nope, you cant seal them in a box. Back to chat and someone says oh THOSE just got straight onto your caravan. Well now I have cargo that is too large to fit on my caravan. So now I'm broke, have items that are too big for a caravan, and need to farm more items. I finally get the items. I buy the little fruit packs and put them onto my caravan. 10 more silver into the abyss. Off I go.
Halfway to my destination, some level 25s attack my caravan. I lose everything. So now, in my attempt to figure out how to make money from being completely broke, I have spent and lost over 30silver on attempting to do the caravan economy, I have nothing to show for it, I have no money, and I still can't repair my gear from the multiple deaths I got trying to get my caravan. Not surprising, a level 25 beats a newbie level 15 support class any day.
How does a new player enter into the economy? How do they level if their gear is broken and they cannot repair it? Why does that new player stick around and keep playing the game?
I'll add that I also did a caravan defense, and I also received nothing. There is no incentive to join a caravan and defend them. There is only incentive to join a caravan, attack them, kill the low level player, and take the meager amount of money they have.
1. There needs to be a method in the economy for low level players to make enough silver to sustain their leveling and repairs. Humanoid mobs could drop meager amounts of copper, there could be quests that reward copper, or other options that allow players to earn enough money. Because you absolutely don't by just playing the game.
2. The Caravan system needs to be FAR better explained. The tooltips need additional information on how to effectively utilize the system. It needs to be clear that in order to make money from a caravan, you need to purchase commodities. It needs to be clear where to BUY those commodities. It needs to be clear that you DONT put commodities in crates, which was the only method taught by the caravan quest. Maybe this needs to be a second caravan quest after you complete the first one so that people are walked through the process. As a new player completing the first quest and losing all my money to do so, I see no reason to engage with the caravan system.
3. There needs to be a reward for DOING that caravan quest. LOSING money on a quest is really unrewarding. The meager amount of glint I got for wasting an hour and a half of my day on a caravan sold for less money than the cost of launching the caravan. That is unacceptable.
4. There needs to be a reward for DEFENDING a caravan. There needs to be encouragement to not just gank a low level player and steal their stuff. If not, you will never get NEW players into the game and the game will die. I escorted a caravan, not knowing what it was, because I got a pop up event. I clicked defend because I didn't want to attack anyone. I spent an hour following them around and when I got them to their destination the event ended and I got nothing. If the game is going to make the caravan an event people can join, then the game needs to reward people for doing that. If not, you just get high level players continuing to go around killing low level players caravans because there is no incentive to defend and every incentive to kill.
5. Consider implementing protection for low level players on their first few caravans. Give them the opportunity to learn the system and explore and earn enough money to level to a higher level so that they can actually engage in combat for their caravan, if this is going to be forced onto them. If I don't have enough silver to repair my gear, I can't level and get to the point where I can engage with the rest of the game or the economy.
There should be ways to earn money effectively in the game that do not involve gambling. Running a caravan is gambling. Not eveyone likes gambling. Give me the option to stay in PvE mode where I can't be attacked but for lesser reward. Give me other options to make money that aren't spending an hour chopping trees to earn 1 silver. I can't engage effectively with the game without there being more than one way to make money, and it seems like the only way is to be a high level person with high level friends doing a caravan.
Ultimately, the game should do more to discourage high level, bored players from actively griefing low level players just trying to learn how to play the game and engage with the community and economy. The game will not survive if it does not have methods for new players to integrate into the existing systems. I was excited about the trading and farming systems, but now, I feel like there is no way for me to engage in these systems effectively. I never will be able to defend my caravan alone as a support class player, and other players have no reason to defend me without earning a reward themselves.
The system is ineffective, and it's not fun. We need options to support a broad player base, not just the max levels who don't care about anyone but themselves.
1
Comments
Keep your loops tight, know how to escape getting killed from other players. Make frequent trips back to node for storage and to minimize loss when you die (and you will die).
You can probably figure out how to proceed from there depending on what you want to do.
The caravans themselves, I'm biased against, but I appreciate your description/data of how it felt as a player who knew less about it going in.
For reference, I was level 15 when I decided to try a caravan. I am also an experienced MMO player who actually loves PvP, but I also understand that a majority of players are NOT me, and that the game really needs those players to flourish. I also have zero defense to engage in valid PvP combat when a level 25 attacks me as a level 15 with very minimal damage output, especially in rag tag leveling gear. Some of my gear is even broken, as I have items that take 10-12 silver to repair, and I am not earning that amount of money in the time my durability goes down. This means I have to spend time I don't have engaging in additional farming in order to play the game, because the normal earnings of playing the game and leveling does not adequately provide income commensurate with the things I am required to do.
Additional issues with the caravan system that were brought up by a friend is that the type of cargo and sizes is very obscure. I had issues with not having a clue that commodities actually go directly onto the caravan and not in a box. I had a friend who was trying to explore the same system who said that he bought a Medium box, because he had enough resources to bring, and then couldn't put it on the caravan, because the Medium box doesn't have a signifier of size (which the commodities do, which is great, except the system doesn't explain it well) especially when you have a whole tab open on the Caravan window that says Cargo which is actually different than the three starter cargo slots that actually exist on the caravan. Caravan cargo and commodities and crates are effectively a box within a box which obscures the system even more for new players and makes it difficult for them to figure out and engage.
I also learned from him that I could have gone and crafted a wagon rather than paying the 10 silver (or at least this is his interpretation, he had actually already paid the 10 silver so couldn't actually test that) for the cost of 55 copper and some timber that took 10 minutes to craft. If this is actually an option, then it should be apparent in the caravan quest that you can pay the 10s or you can go craft one. If this is not the case, it again presents an opportunity for clarification and improvement in a system that is incredibly unclear for a new player.
I came into this game having watched very little of the dev streams. I watched a few random ones throughout my time, but I think the only one I fully watched was the one on Freeholds, so I am looking at these systems from the perspective of a player who hasn't avidly been following the game for years, which is what a lot of players on release are going to be. And those are players we need in order to create a flourishing game. If not, Ashes will go the way of many other MMOs that ended up being inaccessible for a larger player base due to power imbalance, poorly explained systems, or generally bad user experience.