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So how does open world PvP work?

j3thr01j3thr01 Member, Alpha Two
edited January 6 in General Discussion
I can't hit/defend against other players unless i flag up? Meaning I'm on the downside every time?

Minding your own buisness and have somebody wait until you're low enough to get jumped?
Kinda lame ngl.

Comments

  • Taleof2CitiesTaleof2Cities Member, Alpha Two
    Where did you get the idea that you’re “on the downside” in every open world PvP encounter?

    Do you not have faith in your own skill set?
  • j3thr01j3thr01 Member, Alpha Two
    Taleof2Cities wrote: »
    Where did you get the idea that you’re “on the downside” in every open world PvP encounter?

    Do you not have faith in your own skill set?

    Not the issue. I am confident about my skills when i can react.

    By the time i get to react i'm down roughly 20% HP and laden with debuffs on an enemy out of sight on higher ground or out of range because every drooling muffin plays ranged. That is, if i'm not dead..

    Also having to manually flag up before you can defend with all that happening puts you down as well. Auto flag should be a thing.
    If a system is forcing PvP, it should be done right.
  • LaetitianLaetitian Member
    edited January 6
    You fight back when you can react fast enough or you have a chance to be able to rely on reinforcements.
    You don't fight back when you can't do that.

    To get the most out of not fighting back, you run away using your non-combatant CC immunity, or rely on (someone) punishing the opponent when they are corrupted after killing you.

    If they don't kill you, you relocate and reassess.

    If you don't like those options, you prepare to find yourself in more favourable situations, or go to less contested locations.

    If you get caught a lot and lose a lot of loot, you go dump your collected materials more often, so the deaths are less punishing.

    For any of these general suggestions, you may choose not to listen to them because you prefer a different approach or think you can get away with it/make it work, but then you don't really get to complain about the consequences if they're unfavourable.
    The only one who can validate you for all the posts you didn't write is you.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    edited January 7
    j3thr01 wrote: »
    I can't hit/defend against other players unless i flag up? Meaning I'm on the downside every time?

    Minding your own buisness and have somebody wait until you're low enough to get jumped?
    Kinda lame ngl.

    Yeah your gonna lose every time. No matter what people say about "get gud bro". Most encounters will start with you at half HP and will end very quickly due to the low TTK. The only time they will attack you while full is when they are confident you won't take long to kill even at full HP.

    The only thing to do is be aware of your surroundings and if you see some one coming close to you avoid contact at all costs.

    This is dependent on how much you will lose on death of course.

    Edit: keep in mind that once rogues are in the game that won't help.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    If you don't flag back they go red.

    You don't have to flag and auto-flagging would be worst for you. It would make them stay purple for killing you.

    If someone is attacking you and you don't flag back they are more likely to not kill you than to kill you.

    This may help:
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Player_flagging
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • EPMANEPMAN Member, Alpha Two
    The area with "flag" pvp should be limited to only a few zone, its better with some zones without pvp and carebear pvp(low tier) and some zones with full loot(high tier), then you don´t need this kind of **** "flag" system.
  • VhaeyneVhaeyne Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    EPMAN wrote: »
    The area with "flag" pvp should be limited to only a few zone, its better with some zones without pvp and carebear pvp(low tier) and some zones with full loot(high tier), then you don´t need this kind of **** "flag" system.

    Everyone who has issues with the flagging system most likely did not play or enjoy Lineage 2. Steven is a big fan of what Lineage 2 was before P2W.

    The system has a quite good social dynamic to it, but it is an acquired taste.

    More importantly. I don't think the "**** Flag" system as you put it is going anywhere ever. When Steven considers something to be "Core" to Ashes it is not likely to change much. Only slight tweaks will happen.
    TVMenSP.png
    This is my personal feedback, shared to help the game thrive in its niche.
  • PyrololPyrolol Member, Alpha Two
    In Phase 1 people looted all dead bodies and didn’t help anyone, they let them die so they could take their loot. Since the new flagging when looting system (though it does need some work) people actually help others now, random clerics will give you a heal or bards will give you a shield if you are dying to random PvE, from being absolute minimum to changing to that and hardly anyone looting your bodies other than the odd few. I would say that was a good change in itself where its shifted the dynamics of the open world gameplay drastically from one change
    rvid9f6vp7vl.png
  • RoanatorRoanator Member
    Pvp in this game i faaaaaaaar from what t should be.
    At this moment its a joke.
    By the time you turn the flag on you indeed half way down...good balance...and then to think they had more then one meeting about this.

    We already seen players start to camp the spots where players return to after they got killed.
    pvp will be the reason players leave this game if it doesnt change.

    Make it easy....
    1) Make zones where if you enter all are straight on in pvp mode...with notification.
    2) Make zones where you cant pvp
    3) Stop with the system of loot stealing. Its stuppid and makes people angry. this was already concluded in 2000 by asherons call and Daoc. Learn from them...dont create all new failures.
    4) Protect low level players from high level gankers. Some level 20+ find it funny to kill lvls 2 all day. Zones will help and if not look to other games where they solved this issue over 20 years ago.
    5) Create a fun battle zone starting at lets say lvl 10 and then one every 5 levels.Here players can learn pvp against same levels and you can explain lets say keep attacks, caravan attack and defending etc.
    Make the last battleground round 10 lvl under max lvl.




  • judasalivejudasalive Member, Alpha Two
    Roanator wrote: »
    Pvp in this game i faaaaaaaar from what t should be.
    At this moment its a joke.
    By the time you turn the flag on you indeed half way down...good balance...and then to think they had more then one meeting about this.

    We already seen players start to camp the spots where players return to after they got killed.
    pvp will be the reason players leave this game if it doesnt change.

    I must agree to this post. I am a totally PvP orientated player and I played for e.g. L2 for a long time, so I do know the fact of dropping some gear... actually I must say that in the current state of the game there is really no pvp in ashes of creation (my opinion) and there is a reason for it beside of missing content:

    Ashes statement on PvP:
    PvP in Ashes of Creation exists in both opt-in systems and events as well as open-world PvP with a flagging (and corruption) system.[6]

    In the open world, when competing for the scarcity of resources, raids, dungeons and or hunting grounds, an important element of risk vs reward is introduced through our flagging system. Players must be aware of their surroundings and the reputation of other players who may be in proximity. The flagging system is intended to always provide an element of risk in all settings, but also architected to ensure that griefing and PK’ing is almost never worth it. The subtleties of this system are complex, which is of course why it will require considerable testing and feedback.[6] – Steven Sharif

    so here is my feedback on this (btw I am fine with the corruption mode if it works)

    Problem:
    - dying in pvp means loosing exp + materials + damaged equipment
    - manual flagging for pvp gives the attacker an advantage of time

    Result:
    - getting punished for doing normal pvp (not corruption mode) in a pvp orientated game (in the case of death)
    - players will only go into the fights which they are certain of winning them... like 3:1 or higher vs lower level (this is a fact)
    - everyone will clean up his inventory before entering a pvp zone or mode (because noone wonna loose rare materials etc.)
    - there will be no other fights, because even if they are engaging in a fair fight, they will be punished for doing so

    => players are getting punished for doing pvp in a pvp orientated game ?!?!? (and come on winning a fight and looting someone's materials is not really a reward to fight for...)
    => this is not risk vs reward

    Suggestion for improvement:
    - completely remove the normal pvp death penalty
    - permanent auto flag players for pvp if they reached the max. level (alpha = level 25, endgame = level 50)
    - risk vs reward should rely on the open world mechanics only like node vs node, caravans, open dungeons etc., not for just having some normal fights

    best intentions & thx so far!
    GC | Joe
    AoC Chars: Hammil (Cleric) | Anthara (Ranger)
    Server: Lotharia (EU)
  • blank0666blank0666 Member
    judasalive wrote: »
    Roanator wrote: »
    Pvp in this game i faaaaaaaar from what t should be.
    At this moment its a joke.
    By the time you turn the flag on you indeed half way down...good balance...and then to think they had more then one meeting about this.

    We already seen players start to camp the spots where players return to after they got killed.
    pvp will be the reason players leave this game if it doesnt change.

    I must agree to this post. I am a totally PvP orientated player and I played for e.g. L2 for a long time, so I do know the fact of dropping some gear... actually I must say that in the current state of the game there is really no pvp in ashes of creation (my opinion) and there is a reason for it beside of missing content:

    Ashes statement on PvP:
    PvP in Ashes of Creation exists in both opt-in systems and events as well as open-world PvP with a flagging (and corruption) system.[6]

    In the open world, when competing for the scarcity of resources, raids, dungeons and or hunting grounds, an important element of risk vs reward is introduced through our flagging system. Players must be aware of their surroundings and the reputation of other players who may be in proximity. The flagging system is intended to always provide an element of risk in all settings, but also architected to ensure that griefing and PK’ing is almost never worth it. The subtleties of this system are complex, which is of course why it will require considerable testing and feedback.[6] – Steven Sharif

    so here is my feedback on this (btw I am fine with the corruption mode if it works)

    Problem:
    - dying in pvp means loosing exp + materials + damaged equipment
    - manual flagging for pvp gives the attacker an advantage of time

    Result:
    - getting punished for doing normal pvp (not corruption mode) in a pvp orientated game (in the case of death)
    - players will only go into the fights which they are certain of winning them... like 3:1 or higher vs lower level (this is a fact)
    - everyone will clean up his inventory before entering a pvp zone or mode (because noone wonna loose rare materials etc.)
    - there will be no other fights, because even if they are engaging in a fair fight, they will be punished for doing so

    => players are getting punished for doing pvp in a pvp orientated game ?!?!? (and come on winning a fight and looting someone's materials is not really a reward to fight for...)
    => this is not risk vs reward

    Suggestion for improvement:
    - completely remove the normal pvp death penalty
    - permanent auto flag players for pvp if they reached the max. level (alpha = level 25, endgame = level 50)
    - risk vs reward should rely on the open world mechanics only like node vs node, caravans, open dungeons etc., not for just having some normal fights

    best intentions & thx so far!

    As someone considering getting into the game... the changes you suggest will make me quit straight up.
    the idea of players PvPing in the open world outside of just node vs node is very fun. just needs attunements.
    I can think of rouges going in groups to harass players, becoming "bandits" of a sort then the pupolose must respond because they becoming a mence... that's fun.

    It could be that adjusting the penalties for dying should be adjusted... but this shouldn't be level based. all of a sudden when i reach 50 I can lose progress feels weird.
    it could be adjusted by travel, ressurecting in your home town rather then anywhere else would be punishing enough.
  • chovudalchovudal Member, Alpha Two
    Here are my thoughts: The PVP is rudimentary as already described, it's a shame that it doesn't take on a higher importance by level 25. -> No EXP for PVP and a lot of exploitation of the existing mechanics

    I fully agree with the problems of the previous speakers. The question is what AoC sees as its core identity and is prepared to change.

    The current PVP is more punishing than anything else.

    For example, you could adjust the punishment and flag system in the max level area and/or turn entire areas into PVP zones, including objectives assigned to individual nodes.
    You could also adjust the flag system in the low level area so that you fight in your own node area with less punishment and in other nodes with the current punishment. This would mean that the node versus node system would play a greater role and you could also defend resources against citizens of other nodes.

    Here you can also take a look at games that have perfected PVP in my opinion: Example: Warhammer online Age of Reckoning (Return of Reckoning), Guildwars
    -
    EXP (leveling) through PVP and instanced scenarios/arena always appeals to a lot of players and is, apart from never ending new and higher items or an eternal PVE content, an excellent way to make short online times or solo play available.
    -
    -> At the Moment its just PVE farming content. Soloplay is also nonexisting, unless u like crafting.
    In addition, hard work should always be rewarded more than luck, especially when it comes to loot.

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