AoC isn’t Punishing its Frustrating

Dygz

RonDog98 wrote: »

It’s not fun or meaningful. No one, in real life or videos games, enjoys the feeling of going back words or getting worse at something. Is a negative feeling that serves no purpose but to make a game hardcore in a way that isn’t fun, but instead annoying.

Also, just look at history. Wow took over the world and a large part of that is credited to it having gotten rid of outdated mechanics like XP Debt or loot dropping.

Demon souls, Fromsoftwares dark souls before dark souls, had XP debt which was taken out in every subsequent game but it was deemed not fun difficulty.

If a game company known for its hardcore games decides to remove a mechanic because it’s shitty and not fun, you know might want a o take notes as to why.

I mean - your character died. Ashes does nothave permadeath but you are complaining about XP debt?
Death is supposed to be negative. The player should have a negative feeling when their character dies.
In Ashes I have not died often enough to feel like I'm going backwards. Rather - it just adds 10-15 minutes to my Leveling time. If your character dies a bunch of times, you probably should feel like the character has "gotten worse" for a while. The character DIED.

Its_Me

RonDog98 wrote: »

I’m not saying any one of these is bad in a vacuum, I’m saying that all three together suck and will discourage a large number of players.
Also, there’s a difference between “participation trophy players” and players who don’t want their time to wasted.

XP debt is an outdated mechanic and there’s a reason that almost no games utilize it. It is not a rewarding type of difficulty and it psychologically not fun.

Also, nothing about removing XP debt goes against any of the core pillars of this game.

Hell, I think making all your materials recoverable on death also doesn’t go against it.

Waste is a subjective term but in the purest sense, anyone this concerned about wasted time should consider avoiding games all together and stick to real life.

I found humor in your statement that xp debt is wrong because 'it is not fun or meaningful' and that dropping loot is okay but you want it all recoverable. The fact that you feel a risk/penalty should be fun and you think that there should be no risk to dropping loot, just demonstrates your confusion on what a penalty is.

XP debt is not an outdated mechanic but by your suggestion that almost every consequence is bad (xp debt, dropping materials not against core ect.), I see why I might have hit a nerve bringing up participation trophy types of players. 😉

Ludullu

Dygz wrote: »

I'm pretty sure we can recover everything if we make it back in time

Iirc half of what we dropped gets completely destroyed rn. So we always lose at least something on death. Well, unless you had no gatherables at all on you.

RonDog98

Pyrolol wrote: »

You could jsut exploit the no exp debt punishment, if this wasn't in the game instead of running everywhere I would just die and then can respawn at the embersping ive set for home. There's a reason for these punishments, it's to stop expolits and also make it more challenging gameplay too

Sorry Mate, people are already doing this XPdebt is annoying but again players value time more than anything.

XPdebt serves no purpose but to be annoying.

RonDog98

Wandering Mist wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

Wandering Mist wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

Let’s start with this:

Ash’s is a game with XP debt
At least 25% material loss on death
And some of the most insane travel time in any game.

First one is objectively bad game design

Second one, in my opinion, should be tweaked so that you either don’t lose materials on PVE death or make it so you can recover 100% of dropped materials.

Question: Why is xp debt "objectively bad game design"?

It’s not fun or meaningful. No one, in real life or videos games, enjoys the feeling of going back words or getting worse at something. Is a negative feeling that serves no purpose but to make a game hardcore in a way that isn’t fun, but instead annoying.

Also, just look at history. Wow took over the world and a large part of that is credited to it having gotten rid of outdated mechanics like XP Debt or loot dropping.

Demon souls, Fromsoftwares dark souls before dark souls, had XP debt which was taken out in every subsequent game but it was deemed not fun difficulty.

If a game company known for its hardcore games decides to remove a mechanic because it’s shitty and not fun, you know might want a o take notes as to why.

Context is important here. You talk about Fromsoft games here but they work very differently to Ashes. When you die in a Fromsoft game all the enemies respawn and some of the runs from the closest bonfire to the boss you died on are brutal, usually comprising of tight corridors with lots of mobs that you have to fight through or dodge past, and every time you get hit on one of those runbacks you lose health and/or healing that you might need for the boss fight. That is the true punishment for dying in those games, so there was no need to add exp debt on top of it, which is probably why they took it out.

Ashes doesn't work like that. Not only do the mobs not all instantly respawn when you die, but it's far easier to avoid groups of mobs in Ashes than it is in a Fromsoft game, plus you don't really need to save resources for some kind of boss fight at the end of the runback. Completely different scenario.

But let's run with your idea anyway. Let's say we remove the exp debt and allow players to recover 100% of their dropped loot. What then is the consequence for dying? Is there even a consequence at all?

Following from that, if there is no consequence to dying, what purpose does death even have in the game? If death is meaningless, losing health is also meaningless, at which point we might as well get rid of the player health bar entirely. This is where I'm at when it comes to modern WoW. Outside of mythic dungeons or raids there is no consequence for dying at all. Oh sure you lose a tiny bit of time on the runback but that's it, and in fact sometimes you can abuse that by intentionally dying knowing the game will respawn you closer to your desired destination. The same applies to FFVIX, GW2, ESO, the list goes on. None of them have any true consequence for dying and because of that the world feels inconsequential and meaningless to traverse (in my opinion).

I would argue that one of Ashes biggest strengths is that the world feels dangerous. You can die very easily if you aren't careful, and death does have meaningful consequences.

EDIT: I'd like to add to this that punishment in a video game isn't a bad thing. A punishment like exp debt is the game telling you "you f***ked up, learn from your mistake" which is good, and reflects real life. The time when punishment is bad is when the game punishes you for doing things that it has previously taught you.

Here's an example. In Paper Mario Sticker Star there is a level that, in order to progress, you have to stand still in the sinking sand, which then drops you down to the exit. In the very next level, without any hint or warning, doing the exact same thing gives you an instant game over. THAT is bad game design, because the game expected you to do a certain action, then immediately punishes you for doing that same action later on.

Couple of notes, Fromsoftware has actually moved further away from long run backs with every new game. Why? Because it’s not fun difficulty. Elden ring for example barely has run backs at all after boss wipes. You now have a company renowned for hard difficultly they both took out run times and XPdebt.

That being said, it’s one I’m fine with in Ash’s.
Also. Travel time so long often time mobs ro respawn when you die. Also, have you played a souls game? It’s incredibly easy to run past almost all the Mobs because of how tight their hot bosses are. It’s way more dangerous to try and run past mobs in ashes and it isn’t event close.

I would like to restate my main point which is: travel time, XP debt, and partly not recoverable loot is too much all together.

I would get rid of XP debt and make it so 30% of loot drops on death not 50 and as long as you make it to your corpse first, you get all of it back.

RonDog98

lukedawuke wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

lukedawuke wrote: »

wasting a players time? youre a tester bro lol

What a useless comment. As a tester I’m giving feedback on a core part of the game I disagree with.

That’s the literal purpose of these forums.

youre just mad the game isnt noobified for people like you and want devs to change that.. hence why you called yourself player and not tester in the op, youre clueless

I wish you the best and hope you find the joy in life you are so clearly lacking. God speed, brother.

RonDog98

Dygz wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

Again, I like the run time I think it’s necessary and fine.
I’m even saying dropping some materials is okay, but I think they should all be recoverable if you make it back in time.
XP debt is bad design and should be gone, especially given everything else in AoC meant to punish you.

I'm pretty sure we can recover everything if we make it back in time - if someone else hasn't looted the Ashes.
Steven's threshold is that XP debt is OK, but losing Levels is not.

We do not recover all materials lost, only 25%

RonDog98

Dygz wrote: »

[quote=

Its_Me wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

I’m not saying any one of these is bad in a vacuum, I’m saying that all three together suck and will discourage a large number of players.
Also, there’s a difference between “participation trophy players” and players who don’t want their time to wasted.

XP debt is an outdated mechanic and there’s a reason that almost no games utilize it. It is not a rewarding type of difficulty and it psychologically not fun.

Also, nothing about removing XP debt goes against any of the core pillars of this game.

Hell, I think making all your materials recoverable on death also doesn’t go against it.

Waste is a subjective term but in the purest sense, anyone this concerned about wasted time should consider avoiding games all together and stick to real life.

I found humor in your statement that xp debt is wrong because 'it is not fun or meaningful' and that dropping loot is okay but you want it all recoverable. The fact that you feel a risk/penalty should be fun and you think that there should be no risk to dropping loot, just demonstrates your confusion on what a penalty is.

XP debt is not an outdated mechanic but by your suggestion that almost every consequence is bad (xp debt, dropping materials not against core ect.), I see why I might have hit a nerve bringing up participation trophy types of players. 😉

Its_Me wrote: »

RonDog98 wrote: »

I’m not saying any one of these is bad in a vacuum, I’m saying that all three together suck and will discourage a large number of players.
Also, there’s a difference between “participation trophy players” and players who don’t want their time to wasted.

XP debt is an outdated mechanic and there’s a reason that almost no games utilize it. It is not a rewarding type of difficulty and it psychologically not fun.

Also, nothing about removing XP debt goes against any of the core pillars of this game.

Hell, I think making all your materials recoverable on death also doesn’t go against it.

Waste is a subjective term but in the purest sense, anyone this concerned about wasted time should consider avoiding games all together and stick to real life.

I found humor in your statement that xp debt is wrong because 'it is not fun or meaningful' and that dropping loot is okay but you want it all recoverable. The fact that you feel a risk/penalty should be fun and you think that there should be no risk to dropping loot, just demonstrates your confusion on what a penalty is.

XP debt is not an outdated mechanic but by your suggestion that almost every consequence is bad (xp debt, dropping materials not against core ect.), I see why I might have hit a nerve bringing up participation trophy types of players. 😉

Wasted time is time that doesn’t feel meaningful, useful, or respected.

I do like the pseudo intellectual take that everything is subjective. Objectivity, or the closest we can get to it, comes from data.

Data points to XPdebt being phased out because it’s not fun and no one wants to deal with it. Your punishment for death is dying, the time wasted, and the run back to where you were.

Dropping loot has risk because a player can pick it up. You are rewarding for not giving up and getting back to your corpse by retrieving all your loot.

If you can’t make it back, or someone else grabs it, you’ve been punished with permanent loss.