Death mechanics improvement suggestions

So, there various consequences when you character dies, the main ones I wanted to talk about are:
- EXP debt
- Stats decrease
- Material loss
- Time loss (go back to place of death)
- Gear damage
- Gear loss (corrupted players)

First of all, having quite harsh consequences for dying is fine in my opinion (subject to some fine-tuning) and this game is meant to have these in place. However, I feel that currently the combination of these mechanics, together also with other unavoidable player griefing behaviour results in quite detrimental and frustrating situations that don't really add to the challenge and enjoyability of the game, and could be in my opinion improved via some simple additions/changes to make death still punishing in a fairer way.

My envisioned updated system would look as follows...
- When you die (actually on resurrect) you receive stacks of some "Death Consequences" debuff.
- You might receive more/less stacks depending on attacking mob level or attacking player level/corruption or your own corruption.
- These debuff stacks decrease extremely slowly over time (think hours/days), or can be removed much more quickly by gaining experience (or getting back to your "ashes", see later).
- The consequences of dying depend on your "Death Consequences" stack: at low stacks, you actually will receive less of an EXP debt, stats decrease and material loss than current numbers; at higher stacks, you might even receive more negative consequences.
- You don't immediately drop materials on death (unless you are corrupted), if you are resurrected by a cleric, you automatically keep everything, if you are not resurrected and respawn at an emberspring, your "ashes" stay at your place of death and cannot be looted by anyone except you for X minutes (decreasing depending on "Death consequences" stack).
- If you can get back to your "ashes" in time, or are resurrected by a cleric, your EXP debt, stats decrease and "Death Consequences" are reduced
- Looting other players' ashes becomes a long channeled ability (think 10s or so), the looting player immediately becomes a flagged combatant at the start of it in any case and could potentially get interrupted by other players
- Clerics might get natural slightly reduced death penalties for themselves
- Gear damage and gear loss mechanics would stay pretty much unchanged

Note: this also relates to player griefing via mob pulling behaviour, and fixes/changes to mob behaviour to address this should also be put in place, but are not the main topic here.

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Taiisien

I personally feel like the death penalty, specifically to gatherers, is in a poor state. I understand the idea that it would be considered too harsh if you dropped gear every time you died, but lets look at a common scenario.

Player 1 (lets use a level 15 mage as an example) goes out and spends 4 straight hours as part of a group farming a PoI camp. During this time they get massive xp (we can say about 1.5 levels), quite a hefty stack of glint (lets say 20 bright worth), a handful of droppings and emblems, and one or two pieces of gear. The group was well set up for where they were farming and other than the occasional death of the tank, no one else died. Eventually the group breaks up and on the way back to town Player 1 gets killed because they did not see that 3 star level 20 standing behind a tree. When they die, they have a minor xp debt, dont drop any of their gear or looted gear, they lose half the droppings and emblems and 10 bright glint. They get back to their ash pile and recover half of the droppings, emblems and glint that they had lost.

Player 2 (again lets use a level 15 mage) spends 4 hours looking for gatherables. We can even limit this and say they are just looking for one profession and not make it lumberjacking for willow or mining for copper, lets say they are an herbalist and looking for bluebells. In those 3 hours they were able to gather 596 Daffodil, 744 Snowdrop, 212 Flax, 138 Moonbell, and 116 Bluebell, all of various rarities, and get a smidgen of leveling xp and some decent gathering xp. During their journey back to town they also die, they have the same minor xp debt, and lose half of all their gatherable resources. Supposing they get lucky and are able to make it back to their ash pile before anyone else they are able to recover half of what they dropped or a full hour's worth of gathering. This is compounded by the various resource rarity since these dont stack with each other this gives a different stack that is reduced by half. So if our player had managed to get say 20 legendary bluebell then die they lose 10 and if they can recover their ash pile they get 5 back.

This seems incredibly one sided and intentionally detrimental for gatherers. Like I said I understand not wanting to have a system where you can lose your equipped gear but the current system is overly punishing for gatherers. I would like to see it where you only drop glint along with all of the changes proposed by the original poster. I also think there should be some form of mitigation (reduced durability loss, reduced xp debt, increased glint rewards), for tanks when they are in a group as they are the most likely to hold agro, get beaten on the most, and often are the ones to die.

Its_Me

shiy wrote: »

So, there various consequences when you character dies, the main ones I wanted to talk about are:
- EXP debt
- Stats decrease
- Material loss
- Time loss (go back to place of death)
- Gear damage
- Gear loss (corrupted players)

First of all, having quite harsh consequences for dying is fine in my opinion (subject to some fine-tuning) and this game is meant to have these in place. However, I feel that currently the combination of these mechanics, together also with other unavoidable player griefing behaviour results in quite detrimental and frustrating situations that don't really add to the challenge and enjoyability of the game, and could be in my opinion improved via some simple additions/changes to make death still punishing in a fairer way.

My envisioned updated system would look as follows...
- When you die (actually on resurrect) you receive stacks of some "Death Consequences" debuff.
- You might receive more/less stacks depending on attacking mob level or attacking player level/corruption or your own corruption.
- These debuff stacks decrease extremely slowly over time (think hours/days), or can be removed much more quickly by gaining experience (or getting back to your "ashes", see later).
- The consequences of dying depend on your "Death Consequences" stack: at low stacks, you actually will receive less of an EXP debt, stats decrease and material loss than current numbers; at higher stacks, you might even receive more negative consequences.
- You don't immediately drop materials on death (unless you are corrupted), if you are resurrected by a cleric, you automatically keep everything, if you are not resurrected and respawn at an emberspring, your "ashes" stay at your place of death and cannot be looted by anyone except you for X minutes (decreasing depending on "Death consequences" stack).
- If you can get back to your "ashes" in time, or are resurrected by a cleric, your EXP debt, stats decrease and "Death Consequences" are reduced
- Looting other players' ashes becomes a long channeled ability (think 10s or so), the looting player immediately becomes a flagged combatant at the start of it in any case and could potentially get interrupted by other players
- Clerics might get natural slightly reduced death penalties for themselves
- Gear damage and gear loss mechanics would stay pretty much unchanged

Note: this also relates to player griefing via mob pulling behaviour, and fixes/changes to mob behaviour to address this should also be put in place, but are not the main topic here.

You state you are okay with harsh consequences and then proceed to suggest soft penalties such as only receiving 'some' penalties, not immediately dropping materials ect.

Steven has stated that he intends for death penalties to be punishing, even super punishing and that the death penalty is equitable for pvp and pve players which I agree, it is.

Steven has also repeatedly stated that one of his core philosophies in this game is to have death penalties where people really feel failure when they fail opposed to many games where players do not feel shit when they fail.

I personally do not have any issue with the death penalties as they are nor do I feel that the death penalty is extremely punishing with the exception of the intentionally overtuned corruptions penalties but this (corruption) will change.

Otr

shiy wrote: »

My envisioned updated system would look as follows...
- When you die ...

... you get experience and level up.
you get materials
your gear is repaired
And whoever killed you dies too.

shiy

Its_Me wrote: »

You state you are okay with harsh consequences and then proceed to suggest soft penalties such as only receiving 'some' penalties, not immediately dropping materials ect.

Steven has stated that he intends for death penalties to be punishing, even super punishing and that the death penalty is equitable for pvp and pve players which I agree, it is.

Steven has also repeatedly stated that one of his core philosophies in this game is to have death penalties where people really feel failure when they fail opposed to many games where players do not feel shit when they fail.

I personally do not have any issue with the death penalties as they are nor do I feel that the death penalty is extremely punishing with the exception of the intentionally overtuned corruptions penalties but this (corruption) will change.

Yeah, "harsh" is subjective, and there's a whole spectrum of possible negative effects going from nothing and permanent death or something. My personal opinion (obviously not necessarily correct or better) is that currently the punishment is too harsh and not well balanced, Steven and others might have their own opinions, and the current systems are not final and still being developed in any case, hence my ideas/suggestions. Then of course things can be discussed

Its_Me

Taiisien wrote: »

I personally feel like the death penalty, specifically to gatherers, is in a poor state. I understand the idea that it would be considered too harsh if you dropped gear every time you died, but lets look at a common scenario.

Player 1 (lets use a level 15 mage as an example) goes out and spends 4 straight hours as part of a group farming a PoI camp. During this time they get massive xp (we can say about 1.5 levels), quite a hefty stack of glint (lets say 20 bright worth), a handful of droppings and emblems, and one or two pieces of gear. The group was well set up for where they were farming and other than the occasional death of the tank, no one else died. Eventually the group breaks up and on the way back to town Player 1 gets killed because they did not see that 3 star level 20 standing behind a tree. When they die, they have a minor xp debt, dont drop any of their gear or looted gear, they lose half the droppings and emblems and 10 bright glint. They get back to their ash pile and recover half of the droppings, emblems and glint that they had lost.

Player 2 (again lets use a level 15 mage) spends 4 hours looking for gatherables. We can even limit this and say they are just looking for one profession and not make it lumberjacking for willow or mining for copper, lets say they are an herbalist and looking for bluebells. In those 3 hours they were able to gather 596 Daffodil, 744 Snowdrop, 212 Flax, 138 Moonbell, and 116 Bluebell, all of various rarities, and get a smidgen of leveling xp and some decent gathering xp. During their journey back to town they also die, they have the same minor xp debt, and lose half of all their gatherable resources. Supposing they get lucky and are able to make it back to their ash pile before anyone else they are able to recover half of what they dropped or a full hour's worth of gathering. This is compounded by the various resource rarity since these dont stack with each other this gives a different stack that is reduced by half. So if our player had managed to get say 20 legendary bluebell then die they lose 10 and if they can recover their ash pile they get 5 back.

This seems incredibly one sided and intentionally detrimental for gatherers. Like I said I understand not wanting to have a system where you can lose your equipped gear but the current system is overly punishing for gatherers. I would like to see it where you only drop glint along with all of the changes proposed by the original poster. I also think there should be some form of mitigation (reduced durability loss, reduced xp debt, increased glint rewards), for tanks when they are in a group as they are the most likely to hold agro, get beaten on the most, and often are the ones to die.

Your examples had a bit of lopsided bias. 😉

Suggesting that example 1 is unlikely to have many deaths or much for penalties while grinding for 4 hours at a poi where massive xp and hefty stacks of glint is provided and people consistently show up to train mobs to acquire the popular/important grind spot is not realistic.

In your scenario, a tank might die but no one else? It is the opposite, when a tank dies, this is when it is more probable to have other deaths in your party. The risk in these areas come from the higher level mobs, the saturation of these mobs, and people that frequent the area to train mobs and CC people that have mobs on them, not from a casual stroll where they didn't see a mob behind a tree. 🤣

I found it interesting that at a poi where the area would be saturated with other players trying to get the massive xp and hefty stacks of glint, your dead person makes it back to loot on their body and yet, your woe is me gatherer somewhere out in the woods may not? 🤔

Okay, I will stop poking fun at the obvious bias as written and look at the two situations for what they are.

As someone that does gather, I will make fairly frequent trips back to storage (I utilize every node) and may make additional inconvenient trips when anything of real importance drops as I do like to flag on people that are flagged so my risk can be high at times. This is a game of risk vs reward so if your gatherer spends 4 hours gathering and dies and loses half the 4-hour gathering, they need to manage risk a bit better. 😉

Currently, with the easy ability to avoid mobs while gathering and the way the corruption system is overtuned, the chance of a gatherer dying or another player killing a gatherer and going red is extremely low. Once the corruption system is worked on and players do not go red for 1 PK, I definitely think more trips to storage would be a wise thing for gatherers.

This same strategy applies to people grinding for xp and glint IF they place priority on glint. I will intentionally assume the risk of losing glint when focusing on xp and forgo storage runs and upon a death, do not even attempt to retrieve death loot unless it happens to be located right where I rejoin the group I am leveling with. I treat everything like pixels and the loss of those pixels a consequence of failing, even if the death was out of my control (such as a server crash).

Now, let’s pick out a legitimate difference- the xp gain and loss for someone that focuses solely on gathering. This is a game where it is pretty much impossible to level a character and work off xp depth if focused solely on gathering and/or crafting. If someone wants to focus only on gathering and nothing else to level or work off xp debt, their character will remain fairly static and stagnant.

While I do think that there should be higher character xp for gathering and crafting, I do not think that it will ever be a viable path for leveling to 25 or for working off xp debt quickly in this PVX game.

As Steven has repeatedly stated, the death penalty is equitable for PVE and PVP players and I agree with him. Whether the materials carried are stacks of glowing glint or rare daffodils, the player assumes the same risk in dropping 50% of materials (25% retrievable) while a non-combatant and just as an uncommon bluebell will not stack with a rare, a dull glint will not stack with a glowing.

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