[Feedback] Corruption

The corruption system is a massive waste of time, and can NEVER be properly fixed. Shit can it and do something else.

Why? The corruption system relies on people killing the corrupt person. This necessary aspect means that for corruption system to work you must necessarily be able to kill the corrupted person. The punishment is when killed you drop gear. The quickest easiest work around is to have a friend/guild mate kill you right after you become corrupted pick up your stuff and give it back to you.

The only way to prevent this is to stop people from having their friends/guildmates from killing them, or more accurately described, you have to prevent the corrupted person from being killed by other people. I shouldn't have to explain why this is impossible.

You could make corruption persist through death, which would make no difference, they would just have their friend kill them multiple times.

You could make it so Guildmates/Friends can't attack each other, which would cause a whole host of other problems, and people would just drop the guild/friend long enough to complete the task.

You could add a timer so people can't just drop guilds/friends and pop back in/on the guild/friends list. Doesn't actually stop them for using the work around and they can still do all the things one might do in a guild. Also, punishes people who have done nothing wrong.

What you would have to do is remove the drop gear on death mechanic and replace it with something else. Either the gear is not dropped but instead destroyed, which will never happen because that would discourage OWPvP too much.

Or you remove the other person killing aspect, relying on the environment, which the person just has a friend stand next to them and pick there stuff up. Again easily worked around.

The other option is removing the death aspect all together, and instead coming up with a punishment based on some other aspect which would totally defeat the purpose of the corruption system, which is to encourage OWPvP while creating a risk vs reward decision.

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Pham

I believe they are already working on closing the loophole of giving gear and mat's to a friend while corrupted. Once that is done, the system should work significantly better.

kerrai

It’s pretty easy to fix. Instead of dropping N random pieces of gear on death you delete 1/2 N and drop 1/2 N.

AirborneBerserker

Pham wrote: »

I believe they are already working on closing the loophole of giving gear and mat's to a friend while corrupted. Once that is done, the system should work significantly better.

How? Exactly.

kerrai wrote: »

It’s pretty easy to fix. Instead of dropping N random pieces of gear on death you delete 1/2 N and drop 1/2 N.

This would punish people to harshly. The whole point is to ENCOURAGE OWPvP not discourage it.

Its_Me

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

The corruption system is a massive waste of time, and can NEVER be properly fixed. Shit can it and do something else.

Why? The corruption system relies on people killing the corrupt person. This necessary aspect means that for corruption system to work you must necessarily be able to kill the corrupted person. The punishment is when killed you drop gear. The quickest easiest work around is to have a friend/guild mate kill you right after you become corrupted pick up your stuff and give it back to you.

The only way to prevent this is to stop people from having their friends/guildmates from killing them, or more accurately described, you have to prevent the corrupted person from being killed by other people. I shouldn't have to explain why this is impossible.

You could make corruption persist through death, which would make no difference, they would just have their friend kill them multiple times.

You could make it so Guildmates/Friends can't attack each other, which would cause a whole host of other problems, and people would just drop the guild/friend long enough to complete the task.

You could add a timer so people can't just drop guilds/friends and pop back in/on the guild/friends list. Doesn't actually stop them for using the work around and they can still do all the things one might do in a guild. Also, punishes people who have done nothing wrong.

What you would have to do is remove the drop gear on death mechanic and replace it with something else. Either the gear is not dropped but instead destroyed, which will never happen because that would discourage OWPvP too much.

Or you remove the other person killing aspect, relying on the environment, which the person just has a friend stand next to them and pick there stuff up. Again easily worked around.

The other option is removing the death aspect all together, and instead coming up with a punishment based on some other aspect which would totally defeat the purpose of the corruption system, which is to encourage OWPvP while creating a risk vs reward decision.

You are trying to fix a system that is knowingly not working as intended and does not even have all the mechanics in place yet. I seriously doubt people will even go red after just one PK so it makes little sense to pass total judgement on a system never working when we have not even seen yet.

I find it odd that you start by saying the entire system is a waste of time and can NEVER be fixed and then proceed to list potential fixes. 🤔

Even though it is intentionally over-tuned, just continue to provide feedback on what you see. Even if the current feedback is not valid for the actual system that will eventually be in place, it can be taken into consideration for that tuning.

kerrai

How does changing from drop two to delete one drop one punish the person more harshly? It just benefits the person who kills them less.

AirborneBerserker

kerrai wrote: »

How does changing from drop two to delete one drop one punish the person more harshly? It just benefits the person who kills them less.

Heres a senario: One group attacks another group they kill one person which causes then to turn corrupt two of them die in the ensuing battle. They lost two pieces of gear for some mats. It's a pure loss 100% of the time which you can't have.

kerrai

I don’t understand.

Scenario 1:

Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each drop two pieces of gear that Group B steals.

Scenario 2:

Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each have one piece of gear deleted and each drop one piece of gear that Group B steals.

A1 and A2 lose the same amount of gear in both situations, right? Are you saying something different?

AirborneBerserker

@Its_Me try reading the post again and engage your brain this time.

I don't list potential fixes I point out that you can't fix the problem you can only push the workaround to a different location.

Because it's impossible to fix a system where the work around is to use every part of the system as intended.

You have to get a whole new system.

But you seem to lack the ability to think critically. Watch this...

You could add a timer to the ash pile so friends can't just pick up the lost gear and hand it back to thier friend.

That won't work, why?

AirborneBerserker

kerrai wrote: »

I don’t understand.

Scenario 1:

Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each drop two pieces of gear that Group B steals.

Scenario 2:

Group A attacks Group B. Players A1 and A2 become corrupt and then die. A1 and A2 each have one piece of gear deleted and each drop one piece of gear that Group B steals.

A1 and A2 lose the same amount of gear in both situations, right? Are you saying something different?

Yes, even in situations where groups win the fight they instigate, losing even 1 piece of gear would end up being a net loss. Because of the egregous cost, both time and material, of creating gear.

You could lower the requirements for crafting gear, which won't work because now it's easier to just craft gear rather then fight over the opportunity to get gear. Which undermines the whole point of the system.

Again it needs to be shit canned and something else needs to be done.

kerrai

Your original post pointed out the problem of having friends kill the corrupt person. This solves that problem, doesn’t it? And I don’t understand how destroying the gear instead of dropping it changes the disincentive. The corrupted player loses the gear no matter what.

I also think you misunderstand the corruption system. It is designed to DISincentivize PvP against non-flagged players, not incentivize it. It’s possible it’s too much disincentive right now, sure. But it’s supposed to be a disincentive.

Its_Me

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

@Its_Me try reading the post again and engage your brain this time.

I don't list potential fixes I point out that you can't fix the problem you can only push the workaround to a different location.

Because it's impossible to fix a system where the work around is to use every part of the system as intended.

You have to get a whole new system.

But you seem to lack the ability to think critically. Watch this...

You could add a timer to the ash pile so friends can't just pick up the lost gear and hand it back to thier friend.

That won't work, why?

I love it when replies start with lame personal attacks when someone points out something in their post. 🤣

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

The corruption system is a massive waste of time, and can NEVER be properly fixed. Shit can it and do something else.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

What you would have to do is remove the drop gear on death mechanic and replace it with something else.

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

The other option is removing the death aspect all together, and instead coming up with a punishment based on some other aspect

Here let me help, you stated the 'corruption system' will NEVER work and needs to be canned and then pointed out ways you think will improve the corruption system. Backtracking and suggesting that it is no longer the corruption system because gear won't drop or you are removing the death aspect is weak.

Now back to my point, it is asinine to suggest a system that we have been told is not working as intended that we have not even fully seen yet is trash and needs to be tossed out.

AirborneBerserker

kerrai wrote: »

Your original post pointed out the problem of having friends kill the corrupt person. This solves that problem, doesn’t it? And I don’t understand how destroying the gear instead of dropping it changes the disincentive. The corrupted player loses the gear no matter what.

I also think you misunderstand the corruption system. It is designed to DISincentivize PvP against non-flagged players, not incentivize it. It’s possible it’s too much disincentive right now, sure. But it’s supposed to be a disincentive.

If they wanted to disincentivize PvP then they need a system that doesn't rely on PvP to punish a person that wants to PvP.

It doesn't solve the problem because in cases where a group kills a single person then loses X people in the fight they lose X pieces of gear. Which means people wont PvP. Which is NOT what they want. They want OWPvP to happen. They don't want griefing.

AirborneBerserker

@Its_Me

None of the things you quoted would work.

Again you have a problem with critical thinking. If you had actually thought about why those wouldn't work rather just assuming the system will work you wouldnt have made any posts.

Also you need to reread the OP the phrase was not "fix" it was "fix properly".

Its_Me

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

If they wanted to disincentivize PvP then they need a system that doesn't rely on PvP to punish a person that wants to PvP.

Kerrai was very clear in stating that the corruption system is to disincentivize the killing of non-consensual combatants (which I agree with them on) and you twisted this into that they want to disincentivize PvP?

The system is not relying on PVP to punish a person that wants to PVP, the intent is to punish people that kill a non-combatant which Steven has repeatedly stated he wants to significantly decrease in this PVX game. We might be used to PK as a generic term for just killing another player but Steven has been using it for non-consensual pvp engagement deaths.

The primary issue currently is that as Steven has stated, the system is intentionally overtuned for alpha, is missing some mechanics, and currently has some issues to work out.

It is the fact that it is overtuned (red on one PK) and some of the bugs that need to be work out (such as going red when someone switched off combat mid fight and the pvp status falls off, or is positioning mounts so that the death of the mount results in red) that is the real issue right now in alpha.

Once Steven starts working on the corruption system where bugs are addressed and punishment is tweaked, our feedback on whether his vision of a corruption system will work is unreliable speculation based on not even seeing the actual system intended.

CROW3

idk - the more we see this play out, the more I tend to agree w/ @AirborneBerserker. PvP is fun even without taking someone's gear / mats. This is why COD makes $1B in sales on release day. It's not complicated, we just like shooting each other in games. Since nodes tend to be the denominator for "meaning" it might be worth rethinking whether dropping items as part of combat makes pvp more fun and meaningful, or less fun and less likely and therefore less meaningful.

I LOVE pvp, but haven't attacked a single player in Alpha. I've been killed once by another player. The disincentives are so high, that the most fundamental element of PvX - ow pvp - is being avoided 95% of the time. That's just broke.

So, maybe it's worth pulling back corruption, xp debt, and material drops on death - just to help make pvp fun again, then figure out how to balance it with meaning / risk / reward. I know node wars would be a HELL of a lot more fun and attended if we could just pvp and not worry about what material aka significant gathering time and RNG we're losing. It would probably end mob-training overnight.

Just a thought...

Its_Me

AirborneBerserker wrote: »

@Its_Me

None of the things you quoted would work.

Again you have a problem with critical thinking. If you had actually thought about why those wouldn't work rather just assuming the system will work you wouldnt have made any posts.

Also you need to reread the OP the phrase was not "fix" it was "fix properly".

They were YOUR suggestions, I simply quoted them.

In fact, I have not even provided an opinion of what I think will or will not work in this thread so you assuming I have is comical.

The only point I have made is that the system you have passed judgement on that you stated needs to be canned and something else needs to be done because it can NEVER be properly fixed, is a system that Steven has stated that we really have not even seen yet as the current system is intentionally overtuned, missing mechanics, and has some bugs to be worked out.

I won't stoop to your personal attacks but I would like to offer some sincere advice that might improve the quality of your posting here on the forum.

When posting, slow down and take time to read what you are typing and reread before hitting send.

You might want to watch your wording and refrain from starting a sentence with 'what you would have to do' or 'the other option' as it leads to the appearance you are contradicting yourself. Even this last post, you take statements you have made that I simply quote to show how it appears you are contradicting your initial statement that the system can NEVER be fixed and needs to be canned, and you somehow twist it into me having a stance on the validity of the statements you made when I never shared any opinion on this? 🤔

Also, I suggest focusing on replying to actual points people have made rather than twisting their words for your own agenda as it just looks silly.

The fact that you literally twisted Kerrai's statement to almost the exact opposite to fit your narrative and talking points didn't surprise me entirely, it just made me laugh out loud.😉

Its_Me

CROW3 wrote: »

I LOVE pvp, but haven't attacked a single player in Alpha. I've been killed once by another player. The disincentives are so high, that the most fundamental element of PvX - ow pvp - is being avoided 95% of the time. That's just broke.

I am curious, when you say you have not attacked a single player, are you referring to attacking a non-combatant that does not wish to pvp or anyone, even a flagged player?

I love pvp as well and I have not had an issue finding it, nor have I gone red once. I am curious to why you are not finding pvp when so many players flag up in the open world?

AirborneBerserker

Its_Me wrote: »

Kerrai was very clear in stating that the corruption system is to disincentivize the killing of non-consensual combatants (which I agree with them on) and you twisted this into that they want to disincentivize PvP?

Its_Me wrote: »

The system is not relying on PVP to punish a person that wants to PVP, the intent is to punish people that kill a non-combatant which Steven has repeatedly stated he wants to significantly decrease in this PVX game. We might be used to PK as a generic term for just killing another player but Steven has been using it for non-consensual pvp engagement deaths.

Yes it does. the system literally doesn't work at all without PvP, you need to PvP to kill the corrupted person. If you don't then there is no punishment.

Its_Me wrote: »

The primary issue currently is that as Steven has stated, the system is intentionally overtuned for alpha, is missing some mechanics, and currently has some issues to work out.

It is the fact that it is overtuned (red on one PK) and some of the bugs that need to be work out (such as going red when someone switched off combat mid fight and the pvp status falls off, or is positioning mounts so that the death of the mount results in red) that is the real issue right now in alpha. [/quote]

No this goes beyond that. Even if you get the system working exactly as described it will still have loop holes that allow people to never get punished, and pitfalls that punish people which shouldn't be punish.

Its_Me wrote: »

Once Steven starts working on the corruption system where bugs are addressed and punishment is tweaked, our feedback on whether his vision of a corruption system will work is unreliable speculation based on not even seeing the actual system intended.

No it wont.

Look I'm going to break this down for you.

Corruption works like this. Person A attacks person B. Person B doesn't fight back and dies. Person A is now corrupt. Person A is punished when ANY person attacks and kills them.

The system needs; the ability for ANY person to kill the perpetrator, and the ability for that person to loot the gear immediately.

Every single person in the game falls into that category including people that will give you all your gear back.

Any light restriction will be easily circumvented.

Any heavy restriction, like restricting it to just bounty hunters will cause people to track where they are and only engage in the behavior while they aren't around, assuming they are again not a friend that can just hand them their gear back.

Which is why this system will NEVER work, because the punishment can ALWAYS be circumvented.

AirborneBerserker

CROW3 wrote: »

So, maybe it's worth pulling back corruption, xp debt, and material drops on death - just to help make pvp fun again, then figure out how to balance it with meaning / risk / reward. I know node wars would be a HELL of a lot more fun and attended if we could just pvp and not worry about what material aka significant gathering time and RNG we're losing. It would probably end mob-training overnight.

Honestly they need to come up with a completely new system, not an overly complex flagging system.

kerrai

I feel like you don’t read. You keep repeating that “they can just give you your gear back” thing. You just did it two posts ago. That’s fixable. We explained how. I don’t think I need to continue the conversation.

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