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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place five days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Tank changes: We can still salvage this archetype
Imnotkio
Member, Alpha Two
I think the tank changes on the last patch definitely headed in the right direction. I believe the tank archetype still needs some work to make it an indispensable archetype in PvP, both small and large scale.
First of all, non-tank related: Please increase PvP TTK. With this TTK, if the tank is 10x more tanky than a DPS archetype, all it means is the tank dies in 10 seconds instead of 1. It is very difficult to tune a tank class when TTK is so short. You either become too OP and don't die, or you last a few seconds more than other classes. Your abilities to defend other players mean nothing as damage way out scale hp/defense. Additionally, debuffs have a very low effect as they are inefficient compared to just dealing damage. With a long TTK, you can make tanks very tanky, you can make your support abilities effective and still have a counter for those abilities with mitigation/anti-healing debuffs (like shaken and wounded)
Secondly, the PvE mob damage is disproportional at the moment. Tanks don't feel very tanky because they can only take like 2 or 3 mechanics before dying. Ofc they are way tankier than other archetypes because they will be instantly dying to the first mechanic, but since the damage is so high, it doesn't really matter. Creating a PvE encounter where damage is more constant, with more frequent mechanics and higher damage on basic attacks, rather than relying on instant kill mechanics can make tanks feel tankier, spread out damage across the whole party, and increase the difficulty and add mobility and dynamism to all party members.
Finally, I think some of the debuffs are very underwhelming at the moment and don't feel like they do much difference. Debuffs, like dazed, shaken, weakened, and staggered, should be able to be stacked twice.
Now, tank-related feedback:
Overall, I'd say the biggest tank flaw is that they are underwhelming in large-scale pvp. They are tankier than all other archetypes, but as soon as they try to perform their role (shielding allies from damage) using abilities like aegis, protect, they melt. I think this could be fixed by simply increasing TTK, but I also feel like some of the tank kit doesn't really encourage you to close the gap and stay close to your enemies.
For me, a good large-scale pvp tank would:
1. Make enemy DPS want to keep their distance.
2. Protect allies from damage
3. Control the battlefield and positioning with denial of terrain
I think the tank has the potential to do all that with the kit at hand, but I'd say it falls short on all of those aspects. For that, I think tanks gonna need:
1. Higher TTK
2. Some improvement on their kits to incentivize mitigating allied damage
3. CCs and debuffs to reduce damage classes' DPS like trips, interrupts, Humiliate, Dazed, Disarmed, weakened, and Fear debuffs.
Courage:
Issue
I feel like courage gain is in a weird place right now. For a low number of players/low damage mobs your main way of generating courage is through basic attacks. That is not very good because weapon attacks take a long time, so you don't really have time to generate courage, keep grit active at max, and use courage for all your other abilities at the same time. On the other hand, in larger-scale pvp, tanks can more comfortably keep a courage pool because of the amount of damage being dealt in these scenarios.
Suggestion
Increase the courage gained by taking damage by a little bit. Give a bonus to courage generated through blocking damage. If necessary, introduce a cap (like courage/second) to stop tanks from having infinite courage on a larger scale.
Tomahawk:
Issue
Pretty much not used, you have so many other tools to trip that it becomes redundant.
Suggestion
Change the trip to a simple interrupt. Doesn't stack with the other CCs diminishing returns (like trip) and can interrupt an ability being cast. Reduce the range from 20 to 10 meters maybe.
Intimidation Aura:
Issue
I don't think it makes sense that the intimidation aura's damage is based on magical damage. I also think the aura adding stagger is redundant
Suggestion
Change intimidation aura damage to a % of a defensive status (max hp/phs mitigation/armor/etc). Add a percentage of that damage back as healing. Change stagger application for something like dazed, demoralized, or weakened. Could also make it dazed for magical archetypes and weakened for physical archetypes.
To balance it, you could make it cost mana per second, courage per second, or even make it an active ability. Maybe also reduce the range for a melee-adjacent range (10 meters)
Grit:
Issue
It's too taxing at the moment to keep looking at the tiny buff under your nameplate or count 8 seconds all the time to renew grit
Suggestion
Better visual indication when the ability is wearing off so its intuitive when to renew grit
Shake it off:
Issue
The way the equation is done is just extra complexity that is not necessary. It also makes the ability kinda useless for recovering HP in group play.
Suggestion
Make shake it off a simple % of damage received in the last 4 seconds.
Taunt:
Issue
Tank's taunts are very underwhelming in larger-scale pvp. Tanks are literally worse than bards at taunting in these scenarios
Suggestion
Add a taunt passive spec that turns the taunt's humiliate into an area. Bard's aoe humiliated should be changed to demoralized
Protect:
Issue
Protect is a bit underwhelming at the moment. TTK is so low that removing 30% of damage from an ally does nothing much to keep them alive and jeopardizes the tank's ability to survive. For it to be worth it, it would have to significantly increase the chance of your target to survive.
Suggestion
Increase the value of dmg redirected to 50%. Also, allow a % of healing that both linked targets receive to be shared with the other person.
Charge:
Issue
Knockback is not very useful, it just throws the target away from your melee range.
Suggestion
Instead of knocking back, the charge drags all the targets caught by the charge along with the tank until the end of the movement.
Reflect:
Issue
Reflect does nothing to help another player. It only helps if your enemy is aiming at you. This feels very underwhelming in PVP.
Suggestion
This is a suggestion for reflect at first but ideally, I'd like to see this implemented for the tank archetype's general block. Reflect blocks any incoming projectile that comes in contact with it. For instance, if a ranger threw a sniper at a player, a tank could jump in front of it and block it with reflect.
Ideal world: Tank passive that allows for tanks to block (active block) line of sight and any projectile that comes in contact with their shield, acting as if the attack was targeted at the tank. Reflect would remain as is
Inciting Strikes:
Issue
Pretty useless skill, but not really worth it for the damage and threat generation are abundant at the moment. Not a lot of courage generation either.
Suggestion
Remove courage generation, apply weakened in a short area.
Wall:
Issue
Walls are not very useful right now as they either don't do much (open field) or they harm your group as much as the other group (choke points). They have a very niche use which is trying to separate a group
Suggestion
Wall spec that allows friendly players to shoot through your wall / traverse your wall
Wall spec with energy fields that do one of the following once they enter the field (knockback to outside the field, drain mana while standing in it, reduce attack speed, reduce damage dealt) (this could possibly be left for augmentation)
Slam: (this could be an additional ability, but I am adding the suggestion for slam because the ability could use some utility)
Suggestion
disarms weakened targets.
Aegis:
Issue
Aegis is probably your quickest way to generate courage at the moment in large-scale pvp. But the issue is you are increasing the damage amount on your tank by a ridiculous amount. So especially with the low TTK tank is not going to survive long with aegis active in a big push from a big group
Suggestion
Aegis should have a flat % of damage reduction (i.e. the tank takes 50% less damage from redirected damage)
Since courage fills so quickly with aegis, I'd also say that while aegis is active, you get up to 10~20% mitigation depending on how much courage you have (like it was previously, but now only while aegis is active).
to balance it, I would say you'd have reduced movement speed while Aegis is active, and you can't cast offensive abilities (slam, charge, pulverize, etc) only defensive buffs ones (indomitable spirit, fortify, shake it off, etc)
First of all, non-tank related: Please increase PvP TTK. With this TTK, if the tank is 10x more tanky than a DPS archetype, all it means is the tank dies in 10 seconds instead of 1. It is very difficult to tune a tank class when TTK is so short. You either become too OP and don't die, or you last a few seconds more than other classes. Your abilities to defend other players mean nothing as damage way out scale hp/defense. Additionally, debuffs have a very low effect as they are inefficient compared to just dealing damage. With a long TTK, you can make tanks very tanky, you can make your support abilities effective and still have a counter for those abilities with mitigation/anti-healing debuffs (like shaken and wounded)
Secondly, the PvE mob damage is disproportional at the moment. Tanks don't feel very tanky because they can only take like 2 or 3 mechanics before dying. Ofc they are way tankier than other archetypes because they will be instantly dying to the first mechanic, but since the damage is so high, it doesn't really matter. Creating a PvE encounter where damage is more constant, with more frequent mechanics and higher damage on basic attacks, rather than relying on instant kill mechanics can make tanks feel tankier, spread out damage across the whole party, and increase the difficulty and add mobility and dynamism to all party members.
Finally, I think some of the debuffs are very underwhelming at the moment and don't feel like they do much difference. Debuffs, like dazed, shaken, weakened, and staggered, should be able to be stacked twice.
Now, tank-related feedback:
Overall, I'd say the biggest tank flaw is that they are underwhelming in large-scale pvp. They are tankier than all other archetypes, but as soon as they try to perform their role (shielding allies from damage) using abilities like aegis, protect, they melt. I think this could be fixed by simply increasing TTK, but I also feel like some of the tank kit doesn't really encourage you to close the gap and stay close to your enemies.
For me, a good large-scale pvp tank would:
1. Make enemy DPS want to keep their distance.
2. Protect allies from damage
3. Control the battlefield and positioning with denial of terrain
I think the tank has the potential to do all that with the kit at hand, but I'd say it falls short on all of those aspects. For that, I think tanks gonna need:
1. Higher TTK
2. Some improvement on their kits to incentivize mitigating allied damage
3. CCs and debuffs to reduce damage classes' DPS like trips, interrupts, Humiliate, Dazed, Disarmed, weakened, and Fear debuffs.
Courage:
Issue
I feel like courage gain is in a weird place right now. For a low number of players/low damage mobs your main way of generating courage is through basic attacks. That is not very good because weapon attacks take a long time, so you don't really have time to generate courage, keep grit active at max, and use courage for all your other abilities at the same time. On the other hand, in larger-scale pvp, tanks can more comfortably keep a courage pool because of the amount of damage being dealt in these scenarios.
Suggestion
Increase the courage gained by taking damage by a little bit. Give a bonus to courage generated through blocking damage. If necessary, introduce a cap (like courage/second) to stop tanks from having infinite courage on a larger scale.
Tomahawk:
Issue
Pretty much not used, you have so many other tools to trip that it becomes redundant.
Suggestion
Change the trip to a simple interrupt. Doesn't stack with the other CCs diminishing returns (like trip) and can interrupt an ability being cast. Reduce the range from 20 to 10 meters maybe.
Intimidation Aura:
Issue
I don't think it makes sense that the intimidation aura's damage is based on magical damage. I also think the aura adding stagger is redundant
Suggestion
Change intimidation aura damage to a % of a defensive status (max hp/phs mitigation/armor/etc). Add a percentage of that damage back as healing. Change stagger application for something like dazed, demoralized, or weakened. Could also make it dazed for magical archetypes and weakened for physical archetypes.
To balance it, you could make it cost mana per second, courage per second, or even make it an active ability. Maybe also reduce the range for a melee-adjacent range (10 meters)
Grit:
Issue
It's too taxing at the moment to keep looking at the tiny buff under your nameplate or count 8 seconds all the time to renew grit
Suggestion
Better visual indication when the ability is wearing off so its intuitive when to renew grit
Shake it off:
Issue
The way the equation is done is just extra complexity that is not necessary. It also makes the ability kinda useless for recovering HP in group play.
Suggestion
Make shake it off a simple % of damage received in the last 4 seconds.
Taunt:
Issue
Tank's taunts are very underwhelming in larger-scale pvp. Tanks are literally worse than bards at taunting in these scenarios
Suggestion
Add a taunt passive spec that turns the taunt's humiliate into an area. Bard's aoe humiliated should be changed to demoralized
Protect:
Issue
Protect is a bit underwhelming at the moment. TTK is so low that removing 30% of damage from an ally does nothing much to keep them alive and jeopardizes the tank's ability to survive. For it to be worth it, it would have to significantly increase the chance of your target to survive.
Suggestion
Increase the value of dmg redirected to 50%. Also, allow a % of healing that both linked targets receive to be shared with the other person.
Charge:
Issue
Knockback is not very useful, it just throws the target away from your melee range.
Suggestion
Instead of knocking back, the charge drags all the targets caught by the charge along with the tank until the end of the movement.
Reflect:
Issue
Reflect does nothing to help another player. It only helps if your enemy is aiming at you. This feels very underwhelming in PVP.
Suggestion
This is a suggestion for reflect at first but ideally, I'd like to see this implemented for the tank archetype's general block. Reflect blocks any incoming projectile that comes in contact with it. For instance, if a ranger threw a sniper at a player, a tank could jump in front of it and block it with reflect.
Ideal world: Tank passive that allows for tanks to block (active block) line of sight and any projectile that comes in contact with their shield, acting as if the attack was targeted at the tank. Reflect would remain as is
Inciting Strikes:
Issue
Pretty useless skill, but not really worth it for the damage and threat generation are abundant at the moment. Not a lot of courage generation either.
Suggestion
Remove courage generation, apply weakened in a short area.
Wall:
Issue
Walls are not very useful right now as they either don't do much (open field) or they harm your group as much as the other group (choke points). They have a very niche use which is trying to separate a group
Suggestion
Wall spec that allows friendly players to shoot through your wall / traverse your wall
Wall spec with energy fields that do one of the following once they enter the field (knockback to outside the field, drain mana while standing in it, reduce attack speed, reduce damage dealt) (this could possibly be left for augmentation)
Slam: (this could be an additional ability, but I am adding the suggestion for slam because the ability could use some utility)
Suggestion
disarms weakened targets.
Aegis:
Issue
Aegis is probably your quickest way to generate courage at the moment in large-scale pvp. But the issue is you are increasing the damage amount on your tank by a ridiculous amount. So especially with the low TTK tank is not going to survive long with aegis active in a big push from a big group
Suggestion
Aegis should have a flat % of damage reduction (i.e. the tank takes 50% less damage from redirected damage)
Since courage fills so quickly with aegis, I'd also say that while aegis is active, you get up to 10~20% mitigation depending on how much courage you have (like it was previously, but now only while aegis is active).
to balance it, I would say you'd have reduced movement speed while Aegis is active, and you can't cast offensive abilities (slam, charge, pulverize, etc) only defensive buffs ones (indomitable spirit, fortify, shake it off, etc)
5
Comments
Three issues have been of anxiety to me from the beginning until now. The first was the name, "Tank"; the second was the transformation of the Absorption Field from the beautiful flag design to the harsh, incandescent light that strains the eyes; and the third, and most frustrating, was the alteration of "grit" from a toggle skill to a requirement to press the button twice every ten seconds (or as often as it becomes available when I see it, if I see it) for maximum effect. This change introduces a repetitive task that fails to enhance the tactical depth or enjoyment of playing the tank role.
Of these, the modification to "grit" is particularly problematic. It now feels more like a compulsory task rather than a strategic choice, detracting from the overall combat experience. In my opinion this adjustment disrupts the flow of gameplay and appears to serve no purpose other than to increase the frequency of button presses. This change has introduced unnecessary complexity without providing a corresponding enhancement in skill expression or gameplay satisfaction.
Though I do rather like the Protect heal sharing suggestion, but I could see it being a bit too convenient for the healer and hard to deal with if not handled carefully.
Grapple doesn’t work 85% of the time in PvP, it seems it’s a server desync issues? But it feels really bad. Wall also just feels so underwhelming, I do like the changes suggested above! Tank needs to feel fun and powerful. Not OP but powerful or else no one will play it. That can cause huge issues in a game like ashes.