[FEEDBACK] Guild Leveling System Needs Tuning ASAP

Hey there, testers and devs!

I know the current implementation of the guild leveling system is intended... but can we revisit this and adjust at all? I don't think the system is getting tested like you would want it to.

Here is some input and testing from a larger, fairly coordinated organization:

Testing: We tested the experience gains from cross-map runs with guild commodities. We ran caravans from Winstead to Azmaran (one of the longer routes currently) to see the viability of the current iteration of the guild leveling systems.

Data: Attached is a screen shot of what the guild exp bar looks like after 6 commodities (the equivalent of 35 gold glint) are carried from Winstead to Azmaran (about 75k guild exp per commodity). That same amount of glint on the same run would net you 500g if you ran the caravan commodities instead of guild commodities.

We did the math for a full exp bar (one full level for a guild): It would take 77 runs of this type (49 of the longest route) to fill the bar (a bare-minimum opportunity cost of over 4000g in caravan profits).

Outcome: Either the guild commodities need to be MUCH cheaper (in glint cost), or the amount of experience per level needs to be MUCH lower. The vast majority of guilds are ignoring the mechanic because of the mammoth amount of exp needed for even the first level. If large orgs are steering clear, you can guarantee that smaller guilds have no chance to complete even one level in an acceptable timeframe.

Thanks a ton for listening!!

PS- Any input from fellow testers would be wonderful.

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Comments

bfmachine

This 100% dudes spitting facts

Valduren

Yeah, there's no way 99% of guilds are doing this. I wish if there is more than 1 guildie in the same group, even if 1% of the xp gained goes towards guild xp, sort of how leveling weapons works, etc.

Make caravans be the BEST way, but let's not make it the ONLY way. (No the 100xp for 1 blue glint doesnt count :P)

colossi

Really well said. I feel like smaller guilds don’t have a chance, and even larger guilds feel hopeless. It makes me feel like the threshold is too high and that’s discouraging.

hugero

I can't tell if this system was designed as a carrot on a stick for guilds to chase after due to a general lack of content in the game (keep them playing), or if the devs are just wildly unaware of how unattainable these goals are. I think that maybe these values would be applicable if there were tons of different ways to level the guild and all of your members did those things inadvertently just by playing the game--but the way the game currently stands this is just a "step back, WOW" moment. Sometimes the implementation of things in this Alpha are a real headscratcher for me.

Tyrosien

Agreed on this. Representing Darkside and trying to work out the numbers on this to see if we can level the guild, they just don't add up to something feasibly worth attempting as things stand. Perhaps if we could run these packs across the ocean for far greater rewards, this would be worth doing. But as the world is a tiny fraction of what we are to expect, it feels like these commodity costs are not going to be worth even the longest trade run we can do at the moment.

sids

To be perfectly honest, even if I were sitting at gold cap I wouldn't throw glint away on this system, the glint cost is FAR too high. I understand (and like) that its supposed to be something you work towards but this is way too much, there is no world in which a guild of under 1000 people throws away the massive amount of money on this. There needs to be at minimum 5 or 6 ways to level the guilds not just burning potential money for XP. If the guild xp box at least sold back to the destination vendor for its original price after say three/four nodes or something that would go a long way to making this at least palatable.

PashMorter

I was doing the math last night and told my guild there is no way for us to do this unless we are absolutely out of content. I would much rather get the gold and invest it in alts to see more playstyles. The guild buffs are cool, but just too hard to obtain.

Now if we could run caravans for gold, then buy guild commodities with gold, that would be a much better play loop imo.

Tobz1

100% true. I see the vision of making this hard to do but the balance of scales is not here, especially with the nerf on glint drops. I can't farm any spot at lvl 25 solo and get 5 gold glint in several hours of playing. Yesterday I spot tested glint drops from all over the map to try and find a place to justify this and it doesn't exist. After 5ish hours I ended up with 3 gold glint. Then I have to chose between being selfish and making 40 plus gold for myself to improve my character or not contribute to the guild XP. While that might be seen as the intended choice it's not really cool to do that to people's time.

ghostlyyosha

that's a lot of work for the first level no? I'd expect it will be changed to be much easier down the line on the first few levels.

FEDChurch

PashMorter wrote: »

I was doing the math last night and told my guild there is no way for us to do this unless we are absolutely out of content. I would much rather get the gold and invest it in alts to see more playstyles. The guild buffs are cool, but just too hard to obtain.

Now if we could run caravans for gold, then buy guild commodities with gold, that would be a much better play loop imo.

Yea it's just super over-tuned in my opinion. Maybe they are balancing around perceived level 50 glint drop rates, but we can't really test the system in the current environment.

FEDChurch

Tyrosien wrote: »

Agreed on this. Representing Darkside and trying to work out the numbers on this to see if we can level the guild, they just don't add up to something feasibly worth attempting as things stand. Perhaps if we could run these packs across the ocean for far greater rewards, this would be worth doing. But as the world is a tiny fraction of what we are to expect, it feels like these commodity costs are not going to be worth even the longest trade run we can do at the moment.

Fully agree. Good points.

FEDChurch

colossi wrote: »

Really well said. I feel like smaller guilds don’t have a chance, and even larger guilds feel hopeless. It makes me feel like the threshold is too high and that’s discouraging.

RIGHT?! Not to mention, the system is implemented and is not getting tested really.

Gidd3on

Thanks for taking the time to test and do the math on this Church! I hope the devs see this and make adjustments accordingly. Also... how cool is it to get to be on the ground level helping shape this stuff.

AyAyRonUK

This is 100% accurate, you shouldnt need to sacrifice peoples fun in the game to run so many caravans just for level 1, or grind and sacrifice actual gold flow in the game to level the guild,

This progression should come from natural ways such as

Guild Quests
Guild Commisions
Guild Requisitions
Guild Wars
World Bosses as a Guild
Dungeons / Raids as a Guild Group,

These are all way better options and natural progressions than the current system

PHaRTnONu

Have to agree. The time investment of glint is INSANE amount.
There is also a issue of the rolls of amount of glint is ALSO insane to me. I have spent LITERAL hours with out glint dropping. IN CARPHIN the round robin/ 0 to 9 Bright glint is INSANE TO ME (data-mined) those number need to be brought up DRASTICALLY a Zero floor happens SO FREQUENTLY for me i quit playing for the day. HOURS with nothing to show for it is INSANE behavior for what is the BASE commodity of the game. (i lose gold grinding some days cause i have to repair and no way to make gold, cause i have ZERO GLINT cause of these rolls/round robin systems you have in place for glint!)
I have been temped to record my game play for hours to HIGHLIGHT this insanity but why? would you change it? probably not.

Intrepid removes glint farms from PVP zones, says nothing. WHY? those brought content, they were in zones that are PVP ENABLED, people went there knowing the risk. PVP zone SHOULD BE HIGH GLINT DROPS thats the reward side of the risk, and it forces interactions of players. WHY is Intrepid constricting content, and choices? I got involved with this vision because we were promoted that this wouldnt be a theme park full of gaurd rails. But every time i turn around We are being restricted in choices of how to accomplished these goals of the game. WHY? Why are devs removing choice and not adding more options ?

Ok you added a glint sink, but you removed glint faucets, you also have HORRIBLE RNG ranges for glint in POI's for partys. Something is wrong there. If you add a sink you ADD more faucets, cause as it sits now, I dont want to spend a WHOLE DAY to make enough to run 1 commodity, and have no profit for myself (cant repair, didnt farm resources to make better gear) Do you see how much of a waste is going on here?

FIX YOUR RNG FOR GLINT in existing areas, add mobs of high glint to PVP zones to Encourage players to contest these area's and force interactions. PVP zone SHOULD BE REWARDING, whats the reason to go to any of them?? There is nothing of value in any of them, other then caravans. You wasted a whole zone, the content and mobs in them for ...... JUST CARAVANS......

Increase the multiplicitives of the guild commoditys travel distances (cause we only have a small world we cant travel 20+ nodes away guys how can we see the balance of the guild systems you envision if we dont have the world its ment to be in)

FIX the range of glint drop to remove the ZERO aspect to keep pace w mob level (i made more glint on a new char then on my 25 in a hour.... thats insanity)
Fix the glint drops in PVP zones.

Every one is telling you the glint to reward for those guild commodity is not realistic. (and you want these guild levels to help small guilds fight zergs? LMAO how!?)

Im not trying to mean or rude to the dev's I REALLY enjoy the game as a whole & its vision/premise, But these small issue are very very frustrating and now is the time for testing (but we cant cause no one is considering cost in relation to the current world/balances) so please dont think i hate the game/dev's its more that im passionate and not great softening criticisms i have.

Tobz1

AyAyRonUK wrote: »

This is 100% accurate, you shouldnt need to sacrifice peoples fun in the game to run so many caravans just for level 1, or grind and sacrifice actual gold flow in the game to level the guild,

This progression should come from natural ways such as

Guild Quests
Guild Commisions
Guild Requisitions
Guild Wars
World Bosses as a Guild
Dungeons / Raids as a Guild Group,

These are all way better options and natural progressions than the current system

I agree, just like commission boards etc.

nazgull2k1

Absolute facts. Soon as I saw that I went "nope" and walked away.

They've tanked the entire game at this point. Between gold dupe scandals last week and now this garbage patch this week.. server population has dropped SO much that there's no tanks or healers to even form groups anymore.. and even when you CAN get a group.. there's NO glint dropping. I spent 10 hours in Carph and left with 4 blue glint.

So apparently I get to run my caravan (1 gold 3 blue) about once every other week now.. and now I have to also face pressure from my guild about these garbage guild commodities on top of it? Then I have to pay almost 300 in "taxes" EVERY WEEK.. with no glint dropping anywhere to pay for any of it. Who TF thought this was such a great idea?!

NEVERMIND the fact most guilds are at least 100+ people, requiring multiple guilds just to fit them all... requiring now even MORE resources.. as the fights break out over which of the guilds should be getting the "Guild buffs first." .. while everyone else sits out in the cold.

I cant even IMAGINE a small guild of like 20 friends trying to attempt this trash tier system.

Phartonu is 110% spot on.. you've literally made the game an unenjoyable slog of misery at this point.

You need to stop.

No.. Im not being sarcastic. STOP.

If these systems went live today.. and you told me I had to pay money for this.. I'd go back to EverQuest before I'd pay for this.

PS - Having community managers go "oh put it in a weekly feedback post" along with 6 billion other posts to get lost in a giant pile never to be addressed... isnt going to work for this. We're posting everywhere we can, and until we hear an official response on this.. people are going to KEEP posting on this. This is ass. Your own player counts should be raising alarms, if they arent already. We arent "bored". We're completely stuck with no way forward.

Fixing the glint issues, making the PVP zones actually viable and FUN to be in, and addressing this dogwater guild leveling system need to be the ONLY priorities you're "addressing" at this time.

Imnotkio

I disagree with your solution. I think guild progression should be a lengthy progression path.

Right now it takes 1 guild commodity per guildie per level, It is not that big of a deal. The main issue stems from glint being used to buy that guild commodity. You put at odds personal and guild progression, when you use glint to both get gold and progress your character and get guild commodities and progress your guild.

My solution would be to introduce a different type of resource to substitute glint in the commodity sale. This resource could drop the same as Glint, but also from other objectives like world, raid, dungeon bosses, guild quests and commissions, and other guild-related activities. Along with this, you should allow guilds to pool this resource together to buy commodities and run caravans, differently from glint in which you can only do your own caravan.

Additionally, I think a zero-sum reward system for guild wars would be interesting, allowing winning guilds to steal other guilds' experience points to level.

Karmasutra

AyAyRonUK wrote: »

This is 100% accurate, you shouldnt need to sacrifice peoples fun in the game to run so many caravans just for level 1, or grind and sacrifice actual gold flow in the game to level the guild,

This progression should come from natural ways such as

Guild Quests
Guild Commisions
Guild Requisitions
Guild Wars
World Bosses as a Guild
Dungeons / Raids as a Guild Group,

These are all way better options and natural progressions than the current system

I agree - I'm working on gear, pvping, doing my own income and leveling up professions. With the glint drought and this massive sink I have to stop all of the rest to prog my guild, vs work on myself and I don't like that choice. You should never have to fully stop one thing to work on another

ixobelle

valid points, but I'm worried about the dev who's in charge of scorpion spawns in the desert. I think they maybe had a seizure and died on their keyboard holding down the F key. There are approximately 298,760 scorpions per square inch in the desert. It's silly.

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