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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
How to make crafters MVPs and stop the endgame rush mentality
Imnotkio
Member, Alpha Two
Issues
1. There are currently only incentives to rush to the max level. No reason to engage with any other systems in the game before it, especially pvp since levels matter a lot.
2. At launch, if the trend continues, there will also be no reason to craft any gear other than max-level gear. Crafting will be useless for 50 levels.
3. The power gap between casual players and tryhards will be huge, as leveling is long and max-level gear will severely outperform lower-level gear.
This game already has everything set up to create a very interesting professions system that promotes economic gameplay as a key role, while discouraging the endgame rush mentality. All it needs to do now is to choose to do so.
I say this confidently as I saw this achieved recently in an MMORPG called Ravendawn. In the game, crafters were the only ones providing completed items to players. Mobs and quests/events did not drop gear, but materials to craft that gear. The catch here is, as it happens in ashes, the tier of gear crafted was way behind the sweaty players' speed pacing. The ones playing 16-20h a day rushing to max level were using the same tier gear as the casual player grinding for 2~4h, even though they had like 15~20 levels of difference. I took my time exploring the game, finding mysteries, going to new places, grinded for a few hours, and did some tradepack runs and some pvp, all while in the leveling phase. When my guild of laid-back players faced the tryhard guild that was 10~20 levels ahead, we would still be very competitive. So I had no problem with taking my sweet time playing the game and not rushing. This is not true in ashes
If you're unfamiliar with such a system, you would probably ask: "Well, what were the sweaties grinding for then, wouldn't they get bored and leave?" and the answer would be no. Inside every tier of gear, there is still min/maxing of power to be done. Increased rarity, enchanting, gems. Progression, even when soft-locked by crafting, was meaningful and enough to keep the tryhard min/maxers engaged with the game. All the soft locking did was keep the possible power gap between sweaties and casuals way smaller for that period. The power curve for that game looked something like this:
When crafters reached the necessary level to craft the next tier of crafted gear, casuals would naturally be reaching the adventuring level to be using that tier, so they would skip the min/maxing and quickly close the gap between them and the sweaties (not entirely, as min/maxed gear was still slightly better than starter gear from that tier, so sweaties also didn't feel like they wasted their time), making the rush to max level not necessary at all and sometimes even inefficient (as you'd be grinding higher level mobs with lower level gear)
To me, this is the best crafting/gearing system I have ever experienced for this type of game, as it:
1. Values the crafting profession at all times and makes all tiers of gear valid.
2. Effectively mitigates the rush to endgame mentality, allowing players to take their time and enjoy the game, and for players that don't have as much time to keep up decently with the power progression and not be stomped in PVP.
3. Allows for rewarding progression for the players who have a lot of time to spend on the game.
Suggestions
To replicate this, only a couple of steps are necessary:
1. Crafting must be the only reliable way of acquiring gear
2. Crafting progression must be a lot slower than adventuring level progression.
Luckily, in Ashes, we already have the tools for soft-locking progression. Currently, we kind of already have this system, but if it keeps going this way on launch, we would have players choosing to rush to max level with green/blue gear drops only and only then stopping to engage with crafter gear. Therefore, to make crafting relevant early game and stop the rush to endgame, completed gear from mobs must not exist. The only exception to this rule would be some very rare drops, epic+ gear drops. Something so rare that players couldn't really count on and would be a true achievement to acquire such a thing. There is nothing legendary about a level 20 sword. Epic+ gear drops should be the only drops, and reserved for the last tiers of gear.
Would this make grinding mobs not as rewarding, as the dopamine of gear drops won't be present? Sadly, yes. This is mitigated by adding valuable crafting materials dropped from mobs and other interesting drops, but this is certainly a drawback of this system. But with big contributions such as allowing casual players to keep up with tryhards while keeping progression paths for them, killing the rush to endgame mentality, and making crafting valuable at all tiers and periods in the game, it's a drawback worth having. Hopefully, the devs can find other ways to reward players on the grind to supplement this weakness.
We could take this system even further and do the same for crafters. Since nodes are the true soft-lock in progression, we have sweaty crafting mains that gather-craft for 20h a day and crafter mains that play at a much lower frequency. So node crafting stations soft-lock the crafters, who in turn soft-lock the power progression. Does this mean crafters won't differentiate from each other? No. Crafters will stand out by working on min/maxing their crafting power. Crafting gear and their ability to craft superior items.
I'll turn again to Ravendawn, as they had a pretty good crafting system that rewarded players for investing in crafting. The game had a minigame, in which your crafting progression (gear, buffs, food, etc) and mats used would determine your item quality ceiling (how high of a quality you could actually get) and a mix of your decisions and a bit of luck would decide where that quality would land. I'll leave a tutorial here so you can see for yourself:
https://youtu.be/a6Lj3Q4yxOI?t=110
I could see a similar minigame system for ashes. You could have a fragility status that determines how easy it is to make a mistake and how far can you push the quality before the item breaks. This status would be relative to the quality of materials used and the difficulty tier of the craft. Better gear could also make it less costful on the craft's durability and less chance of making a fatal mistake. A stamina status would determine how long you can do the minigame before you succeed/fail. This status would be relative to your crafting level, gear, food buffs, and maybe an experience status (how much you crafted said item for instance). The goal of the minigame would be to push your stamina and durability of materials to the limit while trying to increase the quality of the item without breaking it and failing in the process. Each time you fill the quality bar you'd increase the roll of the item, and filling the quality bar X amount of times could even cause you to increase the rarity of the crafted item.
Now, I know what some players will say: "Oh no, minigames suck, it's fun for the first time but then it's just annoying" and I kinda agree. That's why you can create ways to make it less cumbersome and not necessary if you are crafting items for leveling. In the system above, if all you wanted was to craft bulk items to level, you could use a mass craft option and create 50~100 items at the same time while only going through the minigame once. On top of that, since you don't care about the quality of the crafted item, the minigame is severely expedited and you would be able to quickly spam it as you're only caring about the progress part of the minigame. You could even take the Star Wars Galaxies route and make a mode where you're only crafting minimum rarity and roll items in bulk without going through the minigame at all. Therefore minigames like this would only matter and take the player's time and attention when crafting items for use, when you care about quality. In my experience, these factors make the crafting minigame really not cumbersome and actually meaningful when it matters.
A system like this could make the crafting gameplay very interesting even when nodes soft-lock your progression, as you'd be investing in gear and better materials, and acquiring experience from multiple crafts while trying to push the limit of quality you can achieve in the craft. Meanwhile, casual crafters wouldn't be able to craft masterpieces like tryhard players, but they would be able to craft regular gear that would still be valuable and participate in the economy, without always being behind on the tier of crafting.
TLDR:
1. Removing gear drops from mobs and soft-locking gear progression through crafting progression makes crafting valuable at all tiers, and decreases the power gap between casuals and hardcore players while allowing these hardcore players to keep progressing
2. Soft-locking artisan progression through node progression can do the same for crafters, and a crafting minigame can help crafters stand out from each other while being soft-locked
1. There are currently only incentives to rush to the max level. No reason to engage with any other systems in the game before it, especially pvp since levels matter a lot.
2. At launch, if the trend continues, there will also be no reason to craft any gear other than max-level gear. Crafting will be useless for 50 levels.
3. The power gap between casual players and tryhards will be huge, as leveling is long and max-level gear will severely outperform lower-level gear.
This game already has everything set up to create a very interesting professions system that promotes economic gameplay as a key role, while discouraging the endgame rush mentality. All it needs to do now is to choose to do so.
I say this confidently as I saw this achieved recently in an MMORPG called Ravendawn. In the game, crafters were the only ones providing completed items to players. Mobs and quests/events did not drop gear, but materials to craft that gear. The catch here is, as it happens in ashes, the tier of gear crafted was way behind the sweaty players' speed pacing. The ones playing 16-20h a day rushing to max level were using the same tier gear as the casual player grinding for 2~4h, even though they had like 15~20 levels of difference. I took my time exploring the game, finding mysteries, going to new places, grinded for a few hours, and did some tradepack runs and some pvp, all while in the leveling phase. When my guild of laid-back players faced the tryhard guild that was 10~20 levels ahead, we would still be very competitive. So I had no problem with taking my sweet time playing the game and not rushing. This is not true in ashes
If you're unfamiliar with such a system, you would probably ask: "Well, what were the sweaties grinding for then, wouldn't they get bored and leave?" and the answer would be no. Inside every tier of gear, there is still min/maxing of power to be done. Increased rarity, enchanting, gems. Progression, even when soft-locked by crafting, was meaningful and enough to keep the tryhard min/maxers engaged with the game. All the soft locking did was keep the possible power gap between sweaties and casuals way smaller for that period. The power curve for that game looked something like this:
When crafters reached the necessary level to craft the next tier of crafted gear, casuals would naturally be reaching the adventuring level to be using that tier, so they would skip the min/maxing and quickly close the gap between them and the sweaties (not entirely, as min/maxed gear was still slightly better than starter gear from that tier, so sweaties also didn't feel like they wasted their time), making the rush to max level not necessary at all and sometimes even inefficient (as you'd be grinding higher level mobs with lower level gear)
To me, this is the best crafting/gearing system I have ever experienced for this type of game, as it:
1. Values the crafting profession at all times and makes all tiers of gear valid.
2. Effectively mitigates the rush to endgame mentality, allowing players to take their time and enjoy the game, and for players that don't have as much time to keep up decently with the power progression and not be stomped in PVP.
3. Allows for rewarding progression for the players who have a lot of time to spend on the game.
Suggestions
To replicate this, only a couple of steps are necessary:
1. Crafting must be the only reliable way of acquiring gear
2. Crafting progression must be a lot slower than adventuring level progression.
Luckily, in Ashes, we already have the tools for soft-locking progression. Currently, we kind of already have this system, but if it keeps going this way on launch, we would have players choosing to rush to max level with green/blue gear drops only and only then stopping to engage with crafter gear. Therefore, to make crafting relevant early game and stop the rush to endgame, completed gear from mobs must not exist. The only exception to this rule would be some very rare drops, epic+ gear drops. Something so rare that players couldn't really count on and would be a true achievement to acquire such a thing. There is nothing legendary about a level 20 sword. Epic+ gear drops should be the only drops, and reserved for the last tiers of gear.
Would this make grinding mobs not as rewarding, as the dopamine of gear drops won't be present? Sadly, yes. This is mitigated by adding valuable crafting materials dropped from mobs and other interesting drops, but this is certainly a drawback of this system. But with big contributions such as allowing casual players to keep up with tryhards while keeping progression paths for them, killing the rush to endgame mentality, and making crafting valuable at all tiers and periods in the game, it's a drawback worth having. Hopefully, the devs can find other ways to reward players on the grind to supplement this weakness.
We could take this system even further and do the same for crafters. Since nodes are the true soft-lock in progression, we have sweaty crafting mains that gather-craft for 20h a day and crafter mains that play at a much lower frequency. So node crafting stations soft-lock the crafters, who in turn soft-lock the power progression. Does this mean crafters won't differentiate from each other? No. Crafters will stand out by working on min/maxing their crafting power. Crafting gear and their ability to craft superior items.
I'll turn again to Ravendawn, as they had a pretty good crafting system that rewarded players for investing in crafting. The game had a minigame, in which your crafting progression (gear, buffs, food, etc) and mats used would determine your item quality ceiling (how high of a quality you could actually get) and a mix of your decisions and a bit of luck would decide where that quality would land. I'll leave a tutorial here so you can see for yourself:
https://youtu.be/a6Lj3Q4yxOI?t=110
I could see a similar minigame system for ashes. You could have a fragility status that determines how easy it is to make a mistake and how far can you push the quality before the item breaks. This status would be relative to the quality of materials used and the difficulty tier of the craft. Better gear could also make it less costful on the craft's durability and less chance of making a fatal mistake. A stamina status would determine how long you can do the minigame before you succeed/fail. This status would be relative to your crafting level, gear, food buffs, and maybe an experience status (how much you crafted said item for instance). The goal of the minigame would be to push your stamina and durability of materials to the limit while trying to increase the quality of the item without breaking it and failing in the process. Each time you fill the quality bar you'd increase the roll of the item, and filling the quality bar X amount of times could even cause you to increase the rarity of the crafted item.
Now, I know what some players will say: "Oh no, minigames suck, it's fun for the first time but then it's just annoying" and I kinda agree. That's why you can create ways to make it less cumbersome and not necessary if you are crafting items for leveling. In the system above, if all you wanted was to craft bulk items to level, you could use a mass craft option and create 50~100 items at the same time while only going through the minigame once. On top of that, since you don't care about the quality of the crafted item, the minigame is severely expedited and you would be able to quickly spam it as you're only caring about the progress part of the minigame. You could even take the Star Wars Galaxies route and make a mode where you're only crafting minimum rarity and roll items in bulk without going through the minigame at all. Therefore minigames like this would only matter and take the player's time and attention when crafting items for use, when you care about quality. In my experience, these factors make the crafting minigame really not cumbersome and actually meaningful when it matters.
A system like this could make the crafting gameplay very interesting even when nodes soft-lock your progression, as you'd be investing in gear and better materials, and acquiring experience from multiple crafts while trying to push the limit of quality you can achieve in the craft. Meanwhile, casual crafters wouldn't be able to craft masterpieces like tryhard players, but they would be able to craft regular gear that would still be valuable and participate in the economy, without always being behind on the tier of crafting.
TLDR:
1. Removing gear drops from mobs and soft-locking gear progression through crafting progression makes crafting valuable at all tiers, and decreases the power gap between casuals and hardcore players while allowing these hardcore players to keep progressing
2. Soft-locking artisan progression through node progression can do the same for crafters, and a crafting minigame can help crafters stand out from each other while being soft-locked
1
Comments
I personally consider TL's specific system to be proof that the second part is not actually necessary.
You don't absolutely need to make it so that mobs don't drop gear, you just have to figure out 'how you want your players to perceive and interact with gear drops'.
Factors that make TL work (or could be added) that don't/shouldn't/can't exist in Ashes:
If we are keeping Gear Drops on mobs, Intrepid, and if you are going to try to soften the Artisanship effect of that on us by having us deconstruct things for recipes, then you will have 'started down the path TL takes' (obviously I biasedly think this is a good one) but not gone all the way.
This is my 'warning' that if you follow the 'Lithographing of untradeable/lower quality base wearable gear drops', you 'have to' build the 'same' Artisanship system as they 'would have to build'.
In case it's unclear somehow, it's very easy:
And here's a random final 'secret offering' that I'm pretty sure the person who is in charge of this will see the meaning of.
In TL I have more Mastery for my main weapons. The game has a roundabout concept for 'who wears what gear'. It's like Ashes, not enforced, so I can wear anything, but it's not a great plan to do so. So, in short, the game designers already have some idea 'which Class is going to want this gear piece' for things other than weapons.
I consistently 'HQ' and can therefore sell 'gear I make that would probably match that'. So for example, if a player who specializes in Sword and Shield were to make Plate Armor, if there was a hidden stat correlating their success rate at making the sellable version of Plate Armor, to their Sword and Shield Mastery level...
It's probably about as true as 'Direction Facing Crafting' in FF11, that is to say, 'the Devs will never say that this is a real thing'.
It's nice to imagine, though. The good part is that in Ashes, there's no need to imagine, we have chosen our Artisanship. I'm just making the point that for some 'unexplained' reason, it feels good to 'imagine that because I am a Healer, I am better at making Healer gear'. This 'matters enough to me, to feel good even in a game without any 'real' Artisan skills'.
"For what...?"
"Just about everything, really."