I dont see myself subscribing, if the current trend of grind and character power continues

In before someone comments:

"This is alpha"
"Time To Kill is a known issue and being actively worked on"

Sure, then this is a perfect time to express an opinion on this subject.

I hope that current relationship between grind and character power gap will not be maintained. My main complaint is about how grind heavy the gear progression is, and how at the same time it enables a massive power gap between players of the same level. I'm not sure where Intrepid actually stands on it, so it would be good to dig out their comments or ask during their Q&A sessions. The trend from our experience in P1 and P2 so far, doesn't inspire me to be optimistic on this subject.

In short: I simply don't want a game which pushes players into a senseless grind before they can become competitive, due to how much stats and gear matter in pvp. I would prefer if Ashes was built with focus on player skill, teamplay and strategy, instead of constant race to acquire larger stat sticks. Sadly this is the state of the "game" today.

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Taleof2Cities

There are tons of Forums threads over the years asking for a shorter level scaling, SmileGurney … and you’re not making any resounding arguments to distinguish yourself from any of them.

The Wiki is plain on this matter.

It will take you approximately 225 hours to attain max level. Period. No exceptions. If that’s not a one-time commitment that you’re relishing, Ashes may not be the game for you.

In addition, why are you trying to head off any “This is Alpha” comments? Alpha 2 is about testing the game … not playing the game. Many game systems that have earnable XP (including quite a few quests) are not fully implemented yet. If other players want to mindlessly grind levels without submitting any in-game feedback, who are we to stop them from doing that?

Bottom line, you’re looking for a handout from the devs to help your low-level character be competitive with level-capped players. That’s likely not happening anytime soon.

https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Level_scaling

SmileGurney

Actually my main complaint is about how grind heavy the gear progression is, and how at the same time it enables a massive power gap between players of the same level. I would prefer if the game pvp experience, considering it underpins so many other game systems, was closer to Guild Wars 2 if anything else.

"This is alpha" comment was my comment on how often people respond to criticism of the game pacing and general state of the game systems. The thing is that this is the perfect time to express your opinion on the subject...as its early enough for adjustments.

Someone recently brought up Darkfall on this forum, and that brought be back thinking about why DF failed so miserably. Grind was certainly one of the top factors why the game population collapsed. Which was a massive shame, as in that game pvp was at the centre of all other systems and content. Just like here.

Imnotkio

I've been hammering this point in almost all my feedback.

The current TTK with meta gear is around like 5 seconds. Their intended design is:

"If I were to say average TTK between same level characters and average gear score, I would say that we're probably talking anywhere from 10 to 15 seconds upwards of 30 seconds, depending on the archetype." – Steven Sharif

So while they are iterating on TTK, I still think they are sticking with their design of trying to balance it around a 10~15 seconds for a same level same gear DPS duel, as I pushed Steven on this in the discord:

So while It's going to get better, your issue with it will not be solved. A TTK of 10~15 seconds for the same level and the same gear 1v1 means an instant kill TTK for an unbalanced encounter. A guy that has reached max level and has started working on BiS gear will instantly kill a level 40. And healers and defensive won't do anything here, a guy that can be killed by a couple of abilities from a single person will be totally destroyed in large-scale pvp regardless of healers and support from other archetypes.

How long will a new player take to reach level 40? A couple of weeks if he rushes like crazy? More likely the general audience will take a couple to a few months. So the question would be, how long before a new player can participate in PVP content with the older player base? How long til he can engage with the other pvp systems and content?

Will the player base grow if no new player can participate in PVP content with the established players before putting in 200~300 hours just rushing leveling? I seriously doubt it. And this is not a game with instanced content. Node wars happen whether you like it or not and you're fighting against higher level more geared players. Guild wars are also a player-driven event and you don't choose where and who to fight. Most important of all, open-world PVP is supposed to be an important feature of the game. There is no matchmaking, there is no auto-balanced ranking system to put you in the same category as your enemies. You'll spend 90% of your time fighting ppl either stronger or weaker than you. If that power difference means you kill or die in a split second, without a chance of playing the game, no one will participate.

I'm not talking here about completely destroying the feeling of progression or even giving a level 40 a chance to win in a 1v1 duel against a level 50 player. I want players to be able to play, press their buttons, and feel like they have a chance to escape or contribute to the fight before dying. You can still have fun participating in large battles and group pvp if you have a chance to use your abilities and contribute to the fight, even if you are contributing way less than the other more progressed players. This can't happen if the TTK is 10 seconds for a balanced 1v1.

If you increase TTK back to the original design of 30~60 seconds, when you introduce gear and level unbalances an under-geared and under-leveled player can still survive long enough to play, have fun in the fight, press their buttons, and feel like they're a part of the conflict.

I beg you intrepid, do not design the power curve and TTK in the game like you would for a game with matchmaking ranked battles.

SmileGurney

Imnotkio wrote: »

I've been hammering this point in almost all my feedback.

Will the player base grow if no new player can participate in PVP content with the established players before putting in 200~300 hours just rushing leveling? I seriously doubt it. And this is not a game with instanced content. Node wars happen whether you like it or not and you're fighting against higher level more geared players. Guild wars are also a player-driven event and you don't choose where and who to fight. Most important of all, open-world PVP is supposed to be an important feature of the game. There is no matchmaking, there is no auto-balanced ranking system to put you in the same category as your enemies. You'll spend 90% of your time fighting ppl either stronger or weaker than you. If that power difference means you kill or die in a split second, without a chance of playing the game, no one will participate.

I honestly hope player levelling will introduce a power gap ONLY between 1 to 25, and then all levels above 25 won't add HP or stats, just OPTIONAL choices to modify your playstyle.

What concerns me the most is the gear progression. Large power gap due to gear, enchanting etc is going to gate keep a lot of the game's content for those who aren't the top 10% or whatever of the server population. The same will apply to players who take a break from the game, and obviously new players. Player retention is going to be an issue, if pvp content isn't balanced. GW2 managed to pull it off, I'm just not sure if balanced pvp is Intrepid's intention.

Imnotkio

SmileGurney wrote: »

Imnotkio wrote: »

I've been hammering this point in almost all my feedback.

Will the player base grow if no new player can participate in PVP content with the established players before putting in 200~300 hours just rushing leveling? I seriously doubt it. And this is not a game with instanced content. Node wars happen whether you like it or not and you're fighting against higher level more geared players. Guild wars are also a player-driven event and you don't choose where and who to fight. Most important of all, open-world PVP is supposed to be an important feature of the game. There is no matchmaking, there is no auto-balanced ranking system to put you in the same category as your enemies. You'll spend 90% of your time fighting ppl either stronger or weaker than you. If that power difference means you kill or die in a split second, without a chance of playing the game, no one will participate.

I honestly hope player levelling will introduce a power gap ONLY between 1 to 25, and then all levels above 25 won't add HP or stats, just OPTIONAL choices to modify your playstyle.

The game that seemed to nail power progression for me was Ravendawn. The game basically had infinite progression but even at 20+ levels of difference I could still participate on a GvG against the most sweaty guild on the game and be able to contribute and feel like I was doing something rather than just being cannon fodder.

Did I do the same damage or win against those same sweaties in an individual duel? Hell no. But I was able to last 10~15 seconds even in a duel scenario where the guy was much stronger than me. This meant that in group scenarios I was able to play, throw my CCs, debuffs, interrupt some big casters on the other side, and even contribute to damage when the call was to focus damage. There was a certain comfortable level and gear gap that allowed players to win with less power if they played really well, but power progression still mattered.

This allowed me to follow my own progression pace, level up at my own time and do other content inside the game aside from rushing to the max level, because I knew that even at a disadvantage the game would still be fun and I wouldn't be useless in PVP.

How did they do it? A few factors:

On the TTK front:
1. High HP/DPS ratio. You did a very small % of damage per hit or ability compared to the player's base HP. This made it so even when 5 players grouped on one, that one wouldn't die in a second. The one guy would very rarely win, but he would survive long enough to maybe play extremely well and run away. This also means TTK was long overall and even on large-scale pvp with power gaps players didn't disappear instantly.

2. High Heal-Defensives/DPS ratio. Healing and defensive abilities were a lot more effective than baseline DPS. This means that even on a large scale where DPS outnumbered tank/healers by 4~8x, Healers and Tanks could still perform their role, and healing/defensive abilities were really important. The game was not about simply spamming DPS and whoever hits harder wins.

3. Limited but very effective anti-healing and armor reduction debuffs. If healing and defense were stronger than DPS, how did ppl die? Some people think in these high TTK scenarios ppl only die when the healer runs out of mana, and that is only true in badly designed high TTK games. The game had very powerful debuffs limited to very few spread across all archetypes and these debuffs were limited in time and area of effect. When these debuffs were properly coordinated with a focus DPS follow-up, healing and armor/defensive abilities were severely weakened and DPS could quickly dispatch of enemies. This also meant that uncoordinated Zergs couldn't kill anyone effectively as they suffered with properly timing these debuffs. This gave a massive advantage for elite small groups over just numbers. (we already have the foundation for this in the debuff systems and wounds and shaken, so this is easy to do for ashes)

All these factors gave the game a very high base TTK, with the possibility of some quick kills (not even close to the quick we have right now) with very well-coordinated strikes in large-scale pvp.

On the power progression front:

1. Saturated power curve. After the first 30~40 levels, the power gain really diminished, and players were grinding for very small power gains (as it should be, MMO players will grind for any 0.01% of power advantage)

2. "Gated" power progression. In the game, there was no dropped gear, only crafted gear. And the crafter progression was way slower than the leveling progression. The sweaties would be level 60 using level 40 tier gear. This would mean that they were on the same power tier as a guy who casually played the game and was level 40. Of course, the level 60 guy was stronger, as there were ways to min/max your gear with better stats and "enchanting", and the guy who was level 40 would be starting to gear up, but he wouldn't be able to reach lvl 60 tier of power until crafters progressed further. The progression curve in that game was something like this:

This is something that we have in ashes today kinda with the nodes soft-locking the possible crafter gear, but the balance isn't there yet to see this working. I also think that mob drops will kinda break this as players will just use blue-level appropriate gear when it's properly balanced, instead of engaging with the crafting system.

So, can Ashes pull it off? I believe it can, and they have the foundation to do it (gated progression, debuff system), but they need to forget this idea that lower TTK is better and focus on creating a proper system.

Noaani

The issue here is one thst is inherent to any game where PvP and PvE are trying to use the same combat and progression systems.

People want to feel like leveling is making them stronger in relation to PvE. The act of going back a few levels.later to a piece of content that gave tou issues and demolishing it is something any game with open world PvE as a drawcard needs to be able to supply its players.

On the other hand, if a few levels is the difference between having trouble with content and demolishing it, then it is also the same with PvP situations where there is a few levels difference.

With saying this, I am aware that the OP is complaining about gear progression, not leveling progression. The thing to keep in mind though, is that they are the same thing. Both are a tivities in which players expend time in order to become more powerful.

The same result is desired, if not required, from a game development perspective.

If a player at the level cap can spend weeks earning the coin and resources to upgrade a singlempiece of gear, thst upgrade should be something they notice. If they spend thst time and don't even notice the difference, what was the point in thwt progression, and if there si no point in progression, what is the point in playing?

I'm not offering a solution, I'm just pointing out thst the issue is kind of inherent to the genre. Sure, you could do what GW2 does, but thst makes everything in the game feel pointless - it would not mesh with Ashes notion of things actually mattering.

SmileGurney

Noaani wrote: »

If a player at the level cap can spend weeks earning the coin and resources to upgrade a singlempiece of gear, thst upgrade should be something they notice. If they spend thst time and don't even notice the difference, what was the point in thwt progression, and if there si no point in progression, what is the point in playing?

There are MMORPGs which manage to maintain a sense of character progression without breaking the pvp balance. Often those are games were pvp is also just a side activity. It's even more crucial that pvp balance is achieved in a game like Ashes, where pvp is at the core of a lot of the game mechanics and sandbox features.

Needs of a minority which feels entitled to a stat based advantage purely because of time spent in the game matter little in my books. Especially if you want to maintain a healthy game population and not gatekeep people from the main game content. Majority of the game population is going to play Ashes far less than the "no-lifers" who are likely to disappear for months in Verra, especially if that is going to guarantee them an massive advantage.

If Intrepid ignores that issue, then this will reflect very quickly in the player retention numbers, few months after the release. People will simply not pay to be a moving target, doomed to fail because of stat advantages which guarantee you a victory.

EPMAN

Pay to compete could be something that makes casuals with jobs and familie able to catch up, but seems like intrepit and others don´t understand difference beetween p2w and pay to compete. Ofc there will be players that can´t pay and only can play casual, but it will still make more players able to be competetive if they can buy gold direct from intrepit to buy gear to grind faster. Selling gold can be set up in a controlled system, so no one can buy insane ammount of gold.

Albion online have a no limitation system to buy gold, back when i played that game it was still the most skilled players who won, no matter, that some ppl had cash to buy gold.

I know its for some are a controversial statement, but let´s be honest, some ppl have to pay the salery for the ppl that are needed to keep the game beeing developed after release. As stated previous, most of those players wont stay if they are just meat for no lifers, and then it wont take long before AOC is just another faliure.

Azherae

EPMAN wrote: »

Pay to compete could be something that makes casuals with jobs and familie able to catch up, but seems like intrepit and others don´t understand difference beetween p2w and pay to compete. Ofc there will be players that can´t pay and only can play casual, but it will still make more players able to be competetive if they can buy gold direct from intrepit to buy gear to grind faster. Selling gold can be set up in a controlled system, so no one can buy insane ammount of gold.

Albion online have a no limitation system to buy gold, back when i played that game it was still the most skilled players who won, no matter, that some ppl had cash to buy gold.

I know its for some are a controversial statement, but let´s be honest, some ppl have to pay the salery for the ppl that are needed to keep the game beeing developed after release. As stated previous, most of those players wont stay if they are just meat for no lifers, and then it wont take long before AOC is just another faliure.

People who are okay with this model have a modern PvX game to play already.

If Ashes goes 'P2KU' to 'attract the players with less time', on top of having a sub model, it will lose to TL.

We should be thinking about how to give Ashes its own space to stand in, not 'trying to figure out how to have a shoving match with NCSoft'. And this issue in particular is very precisely the place where Intrepid cannot do it.

SmileGurney

EPMAN wrote: »

Pay to compete could be something that makes casuals with jobs and familie able to catch up, but seems like intrepit and others don´t understand difference beetween p2w and pay to compete

Or we could stop creating problems in the design, only so we can offer a paid "solution"?

GreatPhilisopher

remember when the game was supposed to have good TTK and other stuff . like 30-60 seconds TTK , 60-70% player skills and 30-40% gear power that would matter for pvp..and many other stuff that got changed for some unknown reasons not so long ago. tho i do have a hunch it all started to change when they started only listening to the few whale sweats they use for testing on ptr in the year before the alpha started

EPMAN

Azherae wrote: »

EPMAN wrote: »

Pay to compete could be something that makes casuals with jobs and familie able to catch up, but seems like intrepit and others don´t understand difference beetween p2w and pay to compete. Ofc there will be players that can´t pay and only can play casual, but it will still make more players able to be competetive if they can buy gold direct from intrepit to buy gear to grind faster. Selling gold can be set up in a controlled system, so no one can buy insane ammount of gold.

Albion online have a no limitation system to buy gold, back when i played that game it was still the most skilled players who won, no matter, that some ppl had cash to buy gold.

I know its for some are a controversial statement, but let´s be honest, some ppl have to pay the salery for the ppl that are needed to keep the game beeing developed after release. As stated previous, most of those players wont stay if they are just meat for no lifers, and then it wont take long before AOC is just another faliure.

People who are okay with this model have a modern PvX game to play already.

If Ashes goes 'P2KU' to 'attract the players with less time', on top of having a sub model, it will lose to TL.

We should be thinking about how to give Ashes its own space to stand in, not 'trying to figure out how to have a shoving match with NCSoft'. And this issue in particular is very precisely the place where Intrepid cannot do it.

A solution could be that the montly payment is possible in the 3 tiers.

10 usd no glint/gold

20 usd some glint/gold

30 usd some more glint/gold

Even the no lifers will benefit from this, because it will assure that the game will keep develop. Buit if Steven wants to keep "sugar daddy" AOC, i guess thats his decision.

I do not agree with the statement about TL, the games are different and my guess is, it will be even more different in the future.

Azherae

It is because the games are 'different' that this would happen.

The type of player who wants to be able to spend money to keep up, or wants other players to be able to spend money to keep up, will generally prefer TL anyway.

The type of player who prefers Ashes now will generally be quite upset that any form of 'Pay to Anything' was introduced.

As for the other part of your post... that's what the TL Battle Pass functionally is.

There will always be people who are 'not interested in TL because they can't run around as a Dwarf and chop every tree they can see while watching out for constant danger from the back of their mount'. Honestly though, I guess there's no benefit to me or anyone else to try to make the 'argument' that they're not different enough in financial terms, beyond the above.

I look forward to learning about the nuances of MMO player demographics in the next 5 years.

Volgaris

SmileGurney wrote: »

In before someone comments:

"This is alpha"
"Time To Kill is a known issue and being actively worked on"

Sure, then this is a perfect time to express an opinion on this subject.

I hope that current relationship between grind and character power gap will not be maintained. My main complaint is about how grind heavy the gear progression is, and how at the same time it enables a massive power gap between players of the same level. I'm not sure where Intrepid actually stands on it, so it would be good to dig out their comments or ask during their Q&A sessions. To trend from our experience in P1 and P2 so far, doesn't inspire me to be optimistic on this subject.

In short: I simply don't want a game which pushes players into a senseless grind before they can become competitive, due to how much stats and gear matter in pvp. I would prefer if Ashes was built with focus on player skill, teamplay and strategy, instead of constant race to acquire larger stat sticks. Sadly this is the state of the "game" today.

This is a potentially a huge issue. The material/gathering meta can kill the game. Large groups(multi-guild-groups) will be able to generate mass amounts of gear for members which will pump up their power stat. Large groups will grow even large being able to hand down gear to new players/characters enabling them to level faster. Everything about the game is "Go big or go home". A single-guild-group will never be able to compete with a large group. The power stat being the only stat that matter is basically a "gear rating" which simplifies to idiocracy levels.

Gear should be earned, being handed op gear every 10 levels while you level devalues everything about gear progression. Passing around gear like it's a joint makes the game feel more like a survival sandbox (ark, valheim, ect) than an MMO.

Gear should be the tie breaker between equally skilled players fighting 1v1 in a fair fight. Right now fighting someone lvl 25 with a 500+ power level vs your lvl 25 300 power level isn't even a close fight. Maybe this has been changed recently, but it seems to still be an issue.

Ludullu

Azherae wrote: »

not interested in TL because they can't run around as a Dwarf and chop every tree they can see while watching out for constant danger from the back of their mount

That's me frfr

Noaani

SmileGurney wrote: »

Noaani wrote: »

If a player at the level cap can spend weeks earning the coin and resources to upgrade a singlempiece of gear, thst upgrade should be something they notice. If they spend thst time and don't even notice the difference, what was the point in thwt progression, and if there si no point in progression, what is the point in playing?

There are MMORPGs which manage to maintain a sense of character progression without breaking the pvp balance. Often those are games were pvp is also just a side activity.

The only games I have seen do this are games where there is a separation between PvP and PvE stats and builds.

Games can only do this when PvP is a side activity, no one wants a game where PvP and PvE are on equal footing in an open world setting, but use different stat sets.

If you separate your PvP and PvE defenses, people can progress in regards to PvE at the rate they expect, and that gear can then be given minimal PvP increases, or even decreases in stats for PvP vs the gear they had.

This doesn't work at all in a game where you PvE to progress in PvP. You need your PvE appropriate progression, and since that progression is also PvP progression, we end up with what we end up with.

We either accept runaway PvP progression, switch to subpar PvE progression, or break out PvP stats from PvE stats and cause the game as a whole to be a little more shit.

There is no *good* scenario here.

SmileGurney

Volgaris wrote: »

This is a potentially a huge issue. The material/gathering meta can kill the game. Large groups(multi-guild-groups) will be able to generate mass amounts of gear for members which will pump up their power stat. Large groups will grow even large being able to hand down gear to new players/characters enabling them to level faster. Everything about the game is "Go big or go home". A single-guild-group will never be able to compete with a large group. The power stat being the only stat that matter is basically a "gear rating" which simplifies to idiocracy levels.
(..)
Gear should be the tie breaker between equally skilled players fighting 1v1 in a fair fight. Right now fighting someone lvl 25 with a 500+ power level vs your lvl 25 300 power level isn't even a close fight. Maybe this has been changed recently, but it seems to still be an issue.

No, it hasn't changed. I regularly spar with friends, and we play around with the gear score when sparring. I'm around 400 power atm, we have multiple guys with sit at 500. Stats rule all atm, even in group fights. It's just a clown show atm.

I haven't even touched on the whole "run-away economics" aspect here, I don't want really to mix those subjects much. In the world you are expected to compete for farm spots to access rare resources you need to upgrade your gear, the current gear gap just means unless you are one of the "big boys" with massive stat sticks, you won't enjoy a lot of group content. The only aspect which might save it, is the size of the world. You might be able to substitute named mobs locations due to the world size, but that is a big if, as no one knows whatever name mobs will share similar loot tables, gear drops.

Volgaris

I don't think an increased world size will fix it or even help it. The fundamental problem is there's only ONE stat that matters. Attributes and stats on the character and gear can be balanced so a large power difference between a 400 power level vs a 500 power level isn't so lop sided. Even if they do balance that, we're still left with a single stat that holds value. Combat will never be interesting if there's only one stat that matter. I do think the combat is smooth and fun, but it's simple. And simple gets boring fast. I'd still play the game if other systems shape up nicely, but the outlook of that isn't good at this point.

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