Let's TheoryRaid #7: Lightning Dynamism (and Player Expectations?)

Firstly, if this post ends up making you think or feel anything that you're strongly confident in, go add it to this feedback post from Intrepid.

The reason for this post being separate is that it isn't really about the environment and that's kind of the point.

I'm going to talk about a boss/raid that I literally haven't experienced yet, haven't looked up, only know about from lore and a seconds-long snippet in an opening Cinematic. I'm going to talk about Leviathan (Throne and Liberty, not FF11), because I feel like ranting about how expectations work.

Leviathan is functionally 'just a big fish'. Maybe it calls adds, maybe it does knock-up. Maybe it can use knockback or buff itself. Its arena is a big pool of water in a 'cave' with enough openings in the 'roof' that it doesn't make sense to call it a 'cave', but you can't easily run out the sides from the bottom.

Expectation based on just that: Not very interesting.

In the Cinematic, the area is shown with a thunderstorm happening. Throne and Liberty's weather design team hasn't gotten to the implementation of this yet to my knowledge, even though we see it in the trailer. So that sparks interest, but only for the future.

Because the difference between 'this boss is always the same, but we made its environment cool and fitting for its battle and spectacle and part of its mechanics', and 'this boss changes according to how its environment changes', is huge. I'm not going to 'bloat' this post with all the reasons why meaningfully changing this boss during a potential thunderstorm would have to go through multiple design meetings to decide if it would be 'acceptable' to 'do that to the average player'.

But I will say that if the weather team finishes the Thunderstorm weather and Leviathan's mechanics, whatever they are stay the same, it would be a disappointment and a 'waste of its environment design' (technically this applies to all enemies in that zone but that gets complicated). I wouldn't exactly be expecting the things listed below, but I would imagine them, and then actually be less interested because I know they aren't there. If I know they are never coming this effect is worse:

Lightning striking down 'through the holes in the 'cave' roof, but you can learn to stand under the solid parts to not get struck
Lightning striking the boss and doing damage or weakening it in one way, but also giving it extra mechanics or adding additional statuses to others while it is in the 'Charged' status.
Same for the adds, changing the danger according to what adds are called, or changing the way/order that players deal with different kinds
Mildly affecting the boss' AI and goals relative to the above

All this happened because someone 'chose to showcase this boss in a weather condition that may not yet be possible', a few weeks after Monster Hunter Wilds released (this isn't actually the reason for me but it's an example and does apply to a few others I know).

That's all. I tried to decide if this was worth a TheoryRaid, and keeping it short might not have been a good idea, now that I reread it, but at the same time, talking about it for a 'Raid' I literally haven't done or learned anything about other than 'I play this game, I saw a few seconds of trailer, I know what the smaller version of this enemy type is like' is about as TheoryRaid as it gets.

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Ludullu

Is the cave big enough to flood over up to, say, half of its height? And are the holes in the roof big enough for some potential debris to fall in with the storng rain water?

I'm asking this cause what if the mechanic changed to a "jump on debris in the water as you only source of "ground" and you only have a very limited time before Lev destroys them all". In other words, it'd go from a land fight to a fight on ships, but w/o the ships.

Is such a thing even possible under the current TL design? Would that kind of change be feasible and accepted by the players? Are there other examples of the weather changing stuff to that kind of extent, for this to be expected?

GrandSerpent

Ludullu wrote: »

I'm asking this cause what if the mechanic changed to a "jump on debris in the water as you only source of "ground" and you only have a very limited time before Lev destroys them all". In other words, it'd go from a land fight to a fight on ships, but w/o the ships.

It's a cool idea, but I feel like that might be too much mechanical complexity for an open-world boss. There could potentially be a hundred players all getting into each other's way trying to do a jumping puzzle while also handling all of the boss's other mechanics.

I think that world bosses are a pretty challenging thing to design, because they need to not be overwhelming for casual players, while still being interesting enough to not feel like a big HP bar.

Ludullu

GrandSerpent wrote: »

It's a cool idea, but I feel like that might be too much mechanical complexity for an open-world boss. There could potentially be a hundred players all getting into each other's way trying to do a jumping puzzle while also handling all of the boss's other mechanics.

Yeah, that's why I asked about the holes. Maybe the debris could be huge and instead flown into the cave through the entrance during the flooding? So instead of small pieces of wood it would be more like a few huge ship-deck-sized spots and it'd take some time for the boss to destroy them. Could be closer to a "boss stage" mechanic than a pure "keep jumping to avoid death" one.

Feel like that would be slightly easier for most people. And the complexity of combat during each stage could come from adds jumping onto those debris, while the boss chooses a random place to attack with a few skills of its own.

GrandSerpent wrote: »

I think that world bosses are a pretty challenging thing to design, because they need to not be overwhelming for casual players, while still being interesting enough to not feel like a big HP bar.

While I do agree with the premise itself, I do think that there still gotta be a range of difficulty/complexity of OWBs, so this Lev could be either in the top3-5 or even the most difficult one, if its loot supports that.

GrilledCheeseMojito

Ludullu wrote: »

Is the cave big enough to flood over up to, say, half of its height? And are the holes in the roof big enough for some potential debris to fall in with the storng rain water?

I'm asking this cause what if the mechanic changed to a "jump on debris in the water as you only source of "ground" and you only have a very limited time before Lev destroys them all". In other words, it'd go from a land fight to a fight on ships, but w/o the ships.

Is such a thing even possible under the current TL design? Would that kind of change be feasible and accepted by the players? Are there other examples of the weather changing stuff to that kind of extent, for this to be expected?

That would probably fit for a different boss encounter, or when they implement more aquatic or "naval" combat, but it wouldn't fit in Leviathan's current arena.

Azherae

Ludullu wrote: »

GrandSerpent wrote: »

It's a cool idea, but I feel like that might be too much mechanical complexity for an open-world boss. There could potentially be a hundred players all getting into each other's way trying to do a jumping puzzle while also handling all of the boss's other mechanics.

Yeah, that's why I asked about the holes. Maybe the debris could be huge and instead flown into the cave through the entrance during the flooding? So instead of small pieces of wood it would be more like a few huge ship-deck-sized spots and it'd take some time for the boss to destroy them. Could be closer to a "boss stage" mechanic than a pure "keep jumping to avoid death" one.

Feel like that would be slightly easier for most people. And the complexity of combat during each stage could come from adds jumping onto those debris, while the boss chooses a random place to attack with a few skills of its own.

GrandSerpent wrote: »

I think that world bosses are a pretty challenging thing to design, because they need to not be overwhelming for casual players, while still being interesting enough to not feel like a big HP bar.

While I do agree with the premise itself, I do think that there still gotta be a range of difficulty/complexity of OWBs, so this Lev could be either in the top3-5 or even the most difficult one, if its loot supports that.

Yeah but when MMO players are trying to fight an Open World Boss, the thing that is 'complexity' isn't the same. Because these bosses are by nature very HP-sponge but can also have powerful mechanics, it's just that if you kill them fast enough, you don't see those.

It basically always goes the same for the Top 3-5 world boss type. 'Untethered' DPS show up to boss, they (or anyone, really) flub some mechanics, they blame Tanks and Healers, then the Tanks and Healers get tired of being blamed and stop going, the DPS start to fail (or the game weakens the boss or boosts the playerbase).

So I'm not saying it wouldn't be a phenomenal experience, but if you go above a certain complexity level in a World Boss, you have turned it into a Guild Boss almost automatically.

As for 'do they have the technical skill to implement that', absolutely, we have tons of similar fights, they're just not Open World. My first post wasn't talking about anything on that tier tho, just 'hey the weather makes this different'.

Azherae

Good(?) news for me and other MMO PvE fans!

They're further along than I thought they were!

This isn't at Leviathan, but it's probably just a test, and it makes 'just as much sense in the location we found it in'.

So technically, to reference the original point, now that I've seen this test, I will still be disappointed if there's no Lightning Dynamism in Throne and Liberty, but I will also give them the same 'pass' I give to Intrepid. These things can sometimes be much harder to realize than they seem at the start.

So, my group 'finding a thunderstorm test on Live' is actually a buffer to my disappointment, believe it or not. I will still be disappointed, but knowing that someone wanted to try is heartening. I guess that's what I want this post to convey to Intrepid Devs.

No matter how often your attempts to realize a design turn out to be disappointing, we'll be rooting for you (though sometimes honestly it is better to stay silent than to kick up a fuss about the many designs you seem to actually be doing wrong).

Even blatant mistakes can be forgiven by fans. Just... y'know... fix them and take the lumps rather than doubling down. More of an encouragement post than directly related to the OP, I guess, but might as well post it anyway.

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