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Alpha Two Phase II testing is currently taking place 5+ days each week. More information about testing schedule can be found here
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
đź“ť Dev Discussion #73 - Boss Environments đź‘ą
Dev Discussions are an opportunity to join in on player discussions about topics that Intrepid Studios want to hear your thoughts on. This is less about asking us questions, and more about us asking YOU the questions! If you do have questions about Ashes of Creation, keep an eye our social media channels for our monthly livestreams, check out the Ashes of Creation community wiki, or try the #questions channel in Discord!
In this thread, we’ll be discussing:
Dev Discussion - Boss Environments
How can the environment and setting of a boss encounter enhance the challenge and immersion of the battle? Feel free to share examples of bosses and their environments that you like from other games!
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But I'd like to draw Attention to Guild Wars 1 - Urgoz Lair.
Guild Wars works differently than AoC but I personally have fond memories of the experience.
Urgoz Lair at one point was one of the most difficult dungeons within the game. The difficulty was not just the mobs within but one other major factor: Length.
In GW1 if the whole group died the run was over. To get to Urgoz a run could take easily 5 Hours if the group was inexperienced and careful.
Urgoz himself wasn't that difficult as a boss but getting to him was definitely a challenge. Which made it feel like a real dungeon.
Once you killed him it was such a relief.
Any time a player died they got a stat debuff of 15%. Which stacked up. Sugar Canes which removed 15%.
I could see Intrepid doing a similar, possibly instanced, dungeon. Not multiple, but one very interesting and rewarding one. The mobs are hard. Harder than usual. They require specific strategies to beat. Which makes the trash mobs themselves to mini-bosses.
The dungeon is looooong. There are basically no save points. I would concede today that maybe logging out is permitted. So the run can be split into multiple sessions. But leaving is not. And you can't get back in. You can be rezzed. Sure. But if everyone wipes, its over. Once you are in, you are committed.
One minor but maybe also critical point is that you needed to spend resources to be even able to get to the starting point of Urgoz Lair. If you wiped you were sent back to the hub. But if you left the hub you would have to then pay the entrance fee again. Meaning, doing Urgoz Runs was a bit of a commitment.
No beef to the sweaty pvers who want that sort of gameplay, to each their own. I like mindless mob grinding and easy bosses. Only reason I pve is to get gear and be less bad at pvp
Cheers verrans!🍻
Lich King's throne, from Icecrown Citadel in WoW.
FF14 takes the cake in terms of boss music, however.
The lvl40 boss is in a cave somewhere? Let us use some kind of machinery, that can be operated by lowbies, that shoots at stalactites on the ceiling and helps out the main raid group during important moments.
Enable that machinery only when there's an additional group of lowbies in the raid (ideally done through a guild system that lets you add another party on top of the 40 raiders), and add mobs of their lvls that will spawn and aggro only around that machinery.
Imo stuff like that would not only increase general immersion of the encounter, but would also highly promote cross-lvl interactions between players. Guilds will be more likely to take some lowbie to the boss with them, which will integrate any potential newbies into the game faster and easier, and will also show them their own future content.
Examples:
-Boss hits the ceiling of a cavern and stalactites or stalagmites fall down on players.
-Player in ruins hits the pillar in at the bottom to knock it down on boss.
-Fighting a boss at the top floor of a tower, but with each phase he destroys the floor beneath you. Leading you all the way to the basement area.
-Boss is a vampire type creature and the room is in dark, but entire area has mirrors that you can rotate and reflect the beam of light that is coming through cracks to damage him.
-Boss is too mobile and it flies off, but if you shoot enough chained harpoons at it and pin him down the fight is easier.
-Boss is sensitive to sound and there is a giant gong in the room that you must hit to weaken it.
-Solving environmental puzzle or performing a ritual to summon the boss.
-Visible marks when boss, for example, cleaves the ground. Different results if you are, for example, fighting in a tall grass (cutting it) vs stone pavement (slight slash on ground)...
-If boss falls over near the wall it knocks it down. Same goes if it rushes through if its big enough.
-If the boss, for example, sets fire to an area and you use some water/ice based AoE magic it extinguishes it with visible steam coming from the ground.
2. Storytelling through environment.
Environment and boss should always compliment each other stories.
Maybe the boss area is tied to tragic tale of a character or boss is literally fused with the walls. It changes your reason to fight in a game.
Fighting a boss who lost everyone next to their loved ones graves in cemetery vs fighting with the same person in tavern will have different emotional impact-Don't you agree?
Yes, some people don't care about that, but there are some who do.
3. Introduction of the bosses is very important because it sets up character for the thing you are fighting. It hypes you up and immerses you. Soulsborne games do it perfectly with 1 short scene when you first encounter the boss. I doubt it would cost a lot to animate 5-10 second introduction with maybe 2-3 lines of sentences. Environment can play the key role in that, especially if boss interacts with it in a cutscene...
Almost every boss in Soulsborne works in perfect symbiosis with environment either to enhances introduction of the boss, to set up the mood or as game mechanics.
...I know, Steven said no cutscenes, this is not a story sandbox mmo, but 5-10 sec introduction for some bosses would do wonders for your game.
This also means you're familiar with the zone and to there for things other than the boss kill, which makes it seem more like a normal place and not just a loot zone. Also means you might get normal mob respawns mid boss kill etc that you have to deal with.
As someone else called out, the variability the lights in yogg introduced was cool. Making the flight and loot changed based on how many helpers you freed made the content more accessible for casuals and provided bragging rights for people that did 0 lights.
Managing the ground effects of the fire in the gnome robot guy in ulduar or the puddles in the lich king fight also makes for interesting mechanics that depend on the environment.
In a later EQ expansion there was also a flight set in a Bell Tower where you could ring the bell to force a change in the boss I think it stunned him or something, but you had to know to pull him over to it, and when to use it. This kind of interactivity between the environment and the flight strategy was fun.
-Every boss is enhanced by its environment.
-Every boss leaves some sort of visual mark when it attacks.
-Every boss fits in environment it was placed.
My largest experience in boss arenas and boss fights comes less from videogames and more from my time spent GMing Pathfinder and 5e though I have played a bit of late era WoW Mythic Raids & other games. This post is obviously not comprehensive in it's scope but it's a small chunk of the design to be considered for boss arenas.
I would highlight the following goals as the paired pillars of boss design/gameplay in which all of the choices need to hinge on:
1) Vibes/Aesthetics
Vibes covers the intangible coalescence of themes, plot, visuals, and ideas merging into a cohesive emotional experience for the player during the fight. This creates memorable boss fights that people will rave about to their friends. Consider this the soft fluffy side of a boss.
2) Challenge
Challenge covers the idea of the boss as a 'final exam' on the mechanics explored in the dungeon and contributes to the vibes as a way to create a sense of achievement or reward for the players. This is the crunchy mechanical side to a boss.
With these pillars in mind we can approach the experience of the boss from start to finish in a mechanical step by step approach that allows for the creation process to be streamlined and polished. The following points have been adjusted to match with the prompt for today of "Environment" but can be expanded to include all aspects of the experience.
A) Progression of themes
The gradual transition to the boss is a vital part of defining the 'domain' that the boss inhabits. Introducing both the visual language of the dungeon/boss area and the mechanical ideas that players will have to contend with for a more 'fair' and cohesive feeling has to start here.
Having a break from the outside of a dungeon to the inside of the dungeon to the bosses room with a gradual scale of intensity is ideal as it establishes a visual language for the dungeon. In these cases we can look towards something like world of Warcraft's (WoW) dungeon Blackrock depths as a positive example. By fusing the gradiant colors of the rocks, the manufactured look of the walls, the heat's visual effects and the simple lighting blackrocks environment provides a scale of 'how far along' the player is while also visually indicating safe zones with their muted and less intense looks. On the opposite side of the spectrum as a 'bad example' I recently played Tales of Arise and many of the dungeons lack any sense of 'progress' meaning that even with varied dungeon designs the exploration of them felt bland and left the boss area as just another part of the place. The only sign that a boss was coming was that you had a save point. Circling back to the design pillars we can consider both the mechanical safety/danger portion and the vibes based emotional charge downstream of this 'introduction' of themes.
To theory craft a dungeon that would be linked to this lets start with an element, color, texture, and emotion. Ice, Purple, Crystalline, and Awe came up on the tables I have for this. When translated to a dungeon we have a gradually freezing pathway to a domain of Ice, the walls and paths freezing and water stopping. The transition from a normal forest into a glacial tower where an aurora grows in visibility reflected down from the outside. The mixed roughness of a forest translating to the perfectly smooth walls and prismatic pillars. And all of these come together to invoke Awe at the creator of this domain. What immense power. What perfect control. And to add variety the small pockets of warm yellow fires where the imperfections of humanity have etched out a place for themselves. Irreverent bastions of life that serve as a safe haven in the sea of Icey power.
On the mechanical side, the path leading up to the boss arena is responsible for introducing the themes of the fight. Again we can look to the WoW:Blackrock vs Arise comparison but this time the winner is reversed. Blackrocks variety of bosses all come with their own mechanics, most of which fail to connect to the dungeon around them. Even when they do, see the tavern keepers or the arena fight, the connections are tenuous and don't echo the design of the rest of the dungeon. This divide means that in order to understand the boss a player has to look up a guide or try to find out what the right approach is by trial and error at the final step rather than learning along the way through the dungeon what tools they have and how they interact with the core mechanics. In addition the bosses could be taken from the area and placed into another without anything more than a new coat of paint. Arise comes out on top as a shining example for this with their team based interrupt mechanics; each new member of the party has something to bring to the table in combat and adds a layer of complexity, each new member's mechanics are explored in their dungeon. The example which comes to mind most would be the Mage's dungeon which focuses on using the wizards ability to counterspell enemies as a mechanic in encounters. It begins with mooks that can be countered to stun them out of basic attacks, moves up to the minibosses with attacks that can knock out team members if not countered. Optional encounters give tests which can be harder than the final boss but which are focused entirely on the counterspelling help to highlight and give a place for the team to practice. Then the boss acts as a final test; exploring all the mechanics in combination with previous mechanics and the potential for a teamwipe on the table.
Applying the mechanical approach to the theory crafted dungeon the rolls I have on my tables are positioning, pacing, and planning. Taking the previously discussed thoughts let's play with the idea of positioning by having auras of warm and cold for allies and foes. Bunching together allows the team to remain warm and being too close to the enemies will chill them applying debuffs. You can then apply colors for the buffs/auras that match your earlier notes. When the debuffs grow too much the teammates crystalize in ice and rime slowing down and becoming weaker. Pulling in pacing/planning we can introduce yellow flares picked up at the camps to allow for 'purges' that are off GCD and not tied to a class allowing for the players to plan ahead and feel rewarded for understanding the larger mechanics of the area. Pulling this back to the arena we can look at varied areas of debuff application, areas with chilling winds, freezing water, sloughing snow and the increase of these as the dungeon proceeds to the end.
Combat is limited, conflict is not. When approaching the boss arena one of the key ideas is to provide an alternative challenge to simply an HP bar that needs to be chopped down. Preempting the complaints about late wow basic combat needs to play a role to validate the players investment in to their rotations/gear yet it's varied challenges that separate an outstanding encounter from the derisive fast food slop of tank and spank.
The most famous exploration of this which is tied to the arena in my opinion is the end dragon fight from Minecraft which starts with the rush to destroy 'crystals that heal the boss' requiring building, exploration, movement, and other skills while being entirely contained in the environment. While I haven't played it, I've heard that runescape also has a number of these 'alternative goals' which need to be balanced while dealing with a boss. These also allow for failed states which are more complex than death; a failure to deliver a bomb doesn't need to end in the death of a character which means that more can be explored. A failure to protect an ally means more than just a party wipe if the players had to escort them there.
In addition this can be used to highlight individual characters and the skills they've developed. Runescape definitely plays with this in encounters that require the player to light fires with their firemaking skills to lower defenses. Tying in alternative goals to character investment and player skills in their niche areas creates a rewarding experience for players.
Taking these ideas back to the theorycrafting we've been progressing I've rolled the visual language of the dungeon/boss area Mining and Protection as alternative goals. To try and roll these ideas in to our crystalline chilled boss arena and the mechanics discussed so far we can complement the existing mechanics by adding collection of flares which act as a 'pause' on the chill effect when standing near them. The boss during the fight knocks down things from the arena to close them up making the arena more dangerous. Putting the alternative goal of Protection into practice the boss's health can be separated from victory: the end goal is not to destroy the boss it's to outlast the winter's chill until the sun rises. Damage dealt will weaken the boss and slow it down but there's a victory condition tied to the arena that's something beyond the HP bar. All of these come to complement the earlier mechanical ideas of positioning, planning, and pacing and the aesthetic ideas of ice, purple, awe, and crystal. The arena embodies all of these without even needing a boss as a character; that is just the icing on top.
IN SUMMARY
The Arena must be understood as the finale at the end of a journey both mechanically and aesthetically to challenge and engage the player.
The Arena must be utilized as a 'twist' on the goals of a boss fight to expand on the formula and to create memorable moments.
Thank you for your time.
...That's it. That's my only suggestion. All other suggestions I could give are worthless in comparison. Just make holes happen. 100% always fun and hilarious.
Sources:
- Arkk, Shattered Observatory (Challenge Mode), Guild Wars 2
- Cloud of Darkness (Savage), Eden's Promise: Umbra (Savage), FFXIV
- Cloud of Darkness (Chaotic), FFXIV
- Black Cat, AAC Light-heavyweight M1, FFXIV
- Honorable mention (for knocking people off the platform with a flying building, which is close enough, and even more funny): Her Inflorescence, The Tower at Paradigm's Breach, FFXIV
How can the environment and setting of a boss encounter enhance the challenge and immersion of the battle?
Ah, the thrill of the adventure—where the very ground beneath our feet shifts as the narrative unfolds, and every corner hides a new challenge to conquer! When it comes to the environment of a boss encounter, I believe the build-up is just as critical as the encounter itself. Picture this: a time long ago, within the hallowed halls of the private test servers for Dungeons & Dragons Online, where a band of brave adventurers (my friends and I) ventured forth into the unknown. No map, no hints—just a whisper from the devs, saying, “We have crafted a new dungeon. Go forth, explore, and may your courage guide you.”
We stepped into the darkened depths, unsure of what awaited us. As we trudged deeper, the world around us began to challenge us—not only physically, but mentally. Traps and obstacles tested our cunning, and the very design of the dungeon forced us to adapt and rely on more than just the familiar trio of Tank, Heals, and DPS. Instead, we needed specific classes, certain abilities, and above all—cooperation. This was no mere romp through a dungeon; this was a puzzle, a dance with fate itself.
And then, as we ventured forth, a sudden stillness fell. The air grew thick, a shiver of something ancient and powerful stirred within the very fabric of the world. It was the sound of wings. A dragon. Rising from the horizon, it filled the sky, and our collective breath caught in awe. Fear, excitement, and wonder filled our voices, as we shouted our reactions, feeding back our emotional journey to the devs. That moment, that sheer sense of awe, was a testament to how the environment—its pacing, its surprises—enriched the encounter. The setting was as much a character in the battle as the dragon itself.
However, while such experiences were wondrous, I find that in many encounters, something crucial is lost: the sense of the living world. As much as we adore the grandeur of static, well-rehearsed boss fights—where the mechanics are learned, perfected, and executed—there comes a point when this repetition turns into a predictable and almost mechanical dance. Move here, dodge there, heal now, and stop DPS here—it’s all part of the script, a choreography that eventually grows mundane.
What I long for is a world where the bosses themselves feel alive. Imagine facing that same dragon, the one whose every swipe and fiery breath we’ve learned to counter. Now, imagine if it didn’t follow the same predictable pattern. One moment, it breathes fire, yes—but then it tail-swipes unexpectedly, or casts a magical missile to target the healer, throwing us off balance. Suddenly, the battle becomes dynamic again. Instead of memorizing mechanics, we must think on our feet, adapt to an ever-shifting strategy, and face an adversary that feels as cunning and unpredictable as the heroes challenging it.
This shift from static mechanics to a more adaptive, evolving AI opens up a wealth of possibilities for deeper immersion and challenge. No longer will we be merely executing tasks. Now, we’ll be caught in the whirlwind of a battle where every move counts, every moment is uncertain, and the very world itself seems to respond to our actions.
To sum it up: the environment is not just a backdrop for the battle—it is a character in itself. It can turn the fight from a chore to a thrill, where the setting itself, with all its surprises and changes, enhances the sense of immersion. Let us not only fight the creature; let us fight the very world it inhabits.
I like when the enemies around and the weather situation change the battle, this is Macro-environment for me.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/52939/lets-theoryraid-1-jormungand-vs-xenojiiva
Xeno'jiiva's arena in its 'normal' form also has some elevation changes that you can use until it destroys them, but it's subverted because the thing you normally use elevation for (mounting the monster) doesn't work on it.
I like when bosses can 'call adds' but it isn't just some base mechanic they have at a scripted time. Tumok shaking spiders out of trees would be in my wheelhouse then. Muh immersion.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55622/lets-theoryraid-2-cyclops-v2-no-depth-perception
I also like chaotic/war settings, especially when it temporarily 'takes over' a familiar location, causing the player to rethink the area and form new 'memories' and concepts.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/55673/lets-theoryraid-3-putting-heads-together-hydra-illuyankas-ffxi-vs-tiamat-onigiri
Illuyankas can be part of Besieged and attack Al Zahbi, alongside many troops, and even though this is the equivalent of a Castle Siege defense so there are many players to deal with the many enemies, it still feels good.
In terms of actual environments, everything about Toublek is great, and it becomes greater when you fight the Tier 2 version Kertaki. FF11 would have added even more to this, making the 'weather' in the area change based on certain area-statuses like the fog, or having things like 'windy weather' affect the fight.
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/58812/lets-theoryraid-4-briareus-and-tourblek-reimagined
https://forums.ashesofcreation.com/discussion/60640/lets-theoryraid-5-tiamat-ffxi-vs-firebrand
FF11 Tiamat is mostly, again, just 'enemies around and weather situation'. Firebrand, when fully implemented, will be even more amazing for similar reasons. Steam to block vision, ground hazard lingering burning areas, locations where the breath would be blocked by terrain... I look forward to seeing Firebrand fights in all sorts of cool environs.
Other than that, as another poster mentioned, the 'ground falling out from under you' thing is always at least somewhat interesting (FF11 Diabolos fight, for me, but obv many others).
There are too many recent examples from Throne and Liberty to even go into. They seemingly try to keep these complex mechanics out of Field Bosses since those 'need' to be accessible to the least invested players, but I'd say that there are more battles with environmental components than without them, so it would really just be 'a list of TL Dungeon Boss and miniBoss mechanics, excluding Heliber/Karnix'.
My personal favorite is Carmine Rage Island because the layout is just so good, it really gives that 'I'm having an adventure in a goblin forest' feeling, MiniBoss #1 being a 6v6 is fun but not really environmental. MiniBoss 2 has an environmental 'mechanic' placed around a Goblin... Hellcaster (idk we just call this mob 'Hydrolox').
Hydrolox has various moments where you can imagine the Arena floods with magical energy from some huge Runestones that surround it, and each player gets one protective rune 'attunement' applied to them. To survive the blast that will come or at least not get massively chunked down health-wise, you have to 'notice which Runestone has the mark matching your resonance, and move to it'. But the Runestones themselves aren't all in your field of view and the mark doesn't last long. Similarly, a teamwork aspect comes up since if you miss yours, you can 'know not to go to a spot where you see a teammate'. Hydrolox also changes position and focus during this, I think, and being aware of all three things at the same time enhances the feeling of stress in the boss fight.
There are also multiple hints on the ground patterns of boss arenas, which I'm not personally a huge fan of (and my group has to constantly be reminded to take a look at the floor before engaging the boss to get a starter-guess of where to stand). I think it was also for 'accessibility', but probably for communication purposes, as it makes it easier for the Lead Adventurer to coordinate the.. "C-Ranks", for lack of a better term.
The inverse can be 'seen' in Monster Hunter games (well, moreso World), where the spot you fight a monster changes the planning and fight, sometimes massively, and environmental 'bonuses'/hazards abound. Since the monster moves around or can start in different areas on the map, it helps somewhat, as even 'special hunts' aren't really 'scripted' in the normal sense. Things like 'Kushala Daora going into locations it wouldn't normally go and creating new battle mechanics' like its Fire tornadoes.
MMOs are often forced to limit this type of content for the sake of not disrupting newer players, which I understand (but of course, as a 'veteran', find to be a little disappointing). There are many arenas and environments that can feel recontextualized by adding boss encounters in this way.
FF11 eventually implemented this using a system that didn't have the best immersive effect on me, the 'Voidwalker Notorious Monster'. This was done in the way it was mostly to prevent low level players from stumbling across potentially-aggressive forms of 'things they absolutely should not mess with' in a punishing game, but the ability to fight a devastating Raid Level black dragon in what has, for all your 'life' on that character, been either a Starter zone, or at worst, a war battlefield in one small section, makes an impression very different from fighting effectively the same thing in just a 'standard arena', though that Arena had good 'vibes' too.
Long live Anguis, Long live Yilbegan, down with Overlord Bakgodek.
"For what...?"
"Just about everything, really."
EQ2 had huge contested areas/dungeons with increasing mob lvl the further you go down, the dungeon or area matched this as well.
We pretend its hard to create this, but it should not.
Im happy to apply to a part-time job content creator