More Lawless Areas? or Just Flag/War/Red PK ?

Lawless Areas vs. Red PK

I know lawless is suppose to be limited to mainly the ocean, but is that what we want? Thoughts?

I’ve been thinking about the Lawless zone system versus the Red PK (flagging) system and wanted to throw some thoughts out there. I really believe there’s a place for both, and that each system brings different value to the game depending on how it’s implemented.

Why Lawless Areas Can Be a Good Thing:
They Give a Reason to Fight Over Spots
Lawless zones could (and should) include top-tier XP and or semi Top-tier loot spots. It adds value to the area and rewards PvP groups who can hold it. This also spreads out the leveling population — groups that don’t want to deal with PvP can choose safe, decent areas, while others can risk it for higher rewards.

Not Everyone Wants Ocean-Only PvP
The ocean content is solid and has a lot of potential, but land-based lawless zones would break up the monotony and offer more variety in PvP encounters — not just sea fights or scheduled wars and people with balls enough to attack back when you flag on them. Maybe even make some POIs/ Side Dungeons Lawless areas?

Spreads PvP Across the Map

Quick PvP Without Guild Politics (or YOLO Going Red)
Sometimes I just want to jump into a fight without declaring war or going red and risking my gear dropping on death. Lawless zones allow for quick action without dragging in your whole guild or committing to the full Red PK path.

The Downside of Lawless Zones:
Zerg Guilds and Gatekeeping
The biggest issue I see is zone-locking. A strong guild can roll in with a full raid group++ and hold down a zone indefinitely, denying content to smaller groups. This kills variety and creates PvP choke points that are more about numbers than skill.
(Current Red system allows zergs to do this too, so…?)

Red PK System – What It Tries to Solve:
The PK system is supposed to add consequences to random killing — it discourages griefing by making you think twice before going red. That’s a good thing in theory, especially for casual players or smaller groups.

But right now it’s not quite there:

Zergs go red without caring about the penalties.

XP debt doesn’t do anything yet.

It’s clunky if you’re just trying to contest a spot or pick a fight with someone out in the world.

I think we need both, and here’s why:

Lawless zones offer an open, risk-based PvP space where rare drops and top XP can be contested without worrying about gear dropping on death. These areas can be high-value, high-conflict zones that create good content organically.

The PK system should exist for personal grudges, high-stakes ganks, or flex PvP — but not be the only option to engage in open-world combat/contest spawns/mats

Ideas for Balance:
Keep a few lawless areas — especially in the ocean or at key choke points between nodes, and maybe certain POIs/side dungeons?

Consider scaling spawn value or adding diminishing returns for zerging lawless areas. Or something. (Death to zergs.)

Tune the PK system so going red is a real choice, not just a mild inconvenience.

Give high-value item drops (like Protector’s Pride or similar) a natural home in lawless zones — make them worth fighting for without needing a war declaration or flagging up red.

TL;DR
If the PK system were truly balanced and meaningful, maybe lawless zones wouldn’t be necessary — but right now, they add fun, risk, and variety to open-world PvP. We just need systems in place to avoid zone-locking and make sure smaller groups still have a shot.

Not being able to contest spawns like Protector’s Pride other then (do more dmg forehead) is very annoying when I know I can wipe the floor with the people "contesting", they are just multi-boxing and many of them XD . This is just an example of a high value item/mount that is not really contestable without going Red and risking gear dropping on death because it is not located within a lawless zone.... I would rather fight a group of 40 for a spawn then not be able to fight a multiboxing camper, at least the 40 players are killable and If I bring my own raid we can then fight over the spawn point without much risk but greater reward?

Currently flagging up on someone and hitting them, hoping they will attack back just isn't it either.

Would love to hear others’ thoughts — do you think lawless zones help or hurt the game overall?

Incase you have not read - https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Lawless_zones

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Comments

Azherae

I'm truly saddened by the fact that as time goes on, I expect we're going to see more and more push for Ashes to be more like this.

"I hate being right."

Every single datapoint I have from every single game that tries to appeal with features that aren't focused on PvP and then provides more 'Lawless Area' style gameplay is that everything goes to shit within 3... MAYBE 4 months.

Except Throne and Liberty, ofc, where you can watch the outcomes of their mistakes within a week or two since the playerbase is large enough to actually see the trends quickly.

So I'll offer the data from that one.

Adding a Lawless Area with a time limit, that was absolutely optional to go to even economically in most ways, plus an item that you could buy to recharge your time (started at 6h weekly) resulted in large guild/group domination of areas.

To put that in perspective, PvP players with 'too much time' literally spent economic progress (which they genuinely didn't make that much of after a while since the price of most easy drops from that zone tanked, as they also would in an Ashes-style economy, even faster) to just keep PvP-ing.

Whether their intent was to lock down the zones or not is not relevant. The explicit aim of giving the time limit was to do a sort of 'soft matchmaking'. Eventually the dominant groups would run out of time and leave, particularly if they were all 'having fun fighting each other' they would be more likely to leave at similar times. This did not happen. I feel that most L2 players could have told them this would not happen. They have since removed the ability to 'Buy more time', which adds a nice soft downward pressure on the problem, but the perceptive outcome lingers (less PvP-casuals willing to engage with the content).

Lawless zones in Ashes are exactly the equivalent of this, but with no real cost, and automatic economic progression that isn't subject to the drag that TL has built into it. I am 100% against the colossal design mistake of 'adding a rewarding Lawless area that is always accessible/always Lawless' in Ashes of Creation.

Veeshan

Azherae wrote: »

I'm truly saddened by the fact that as time goes on, I expect we're going to see more and more push for Ashes to be more like this.

"I hate being right."

Every single datapoint I have from every single game that tries to appeal with features that aren't focused on PvP and then provides more 'Lawless Area' style gameplay is that everything goes to shit within 3... MAYBE 4 months.

PvE players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvP in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience.

Open oceans and the 3 island should be lawless zones imo there to far away from the 2 main continents for the law to police and nodes on those islands should only be policed within the city walls or very close proximity but outside of that it the wild west where players have more freedom to police/politic those regions.
PvE players should also like this because it will pull the more PvP minded player bases away from the mainland towards those islands regions which will make the area less hostile for those players. So doing so would be a win for everyone, have some unique items/resources and thing to incentive people to go into lawless zones but since everything is tradeable you will see PvP players selling those items for the peopel who dont wanna go in there to get it themselfs

Azherae

Veeshan wrote: »

Azherae wrote: »

I'm truly saddened by the fact that as time goes on, I expect we're going to see more and more push for Ashes to be more like this.

"I hate being right."

Every single datapoint I have from every single game that tries to appeal with features that aren't focused on PvP and then provides more 'Lawless Area' style gameplay is that everything goes to shit within 3... MAYBE 4 months.

PvE players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvP in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience

Yeah yeah, predictable.

Who's the one trying to change the game in this post though?

Noaani

Veeshan wrote: »

PvE players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvP in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience.

PvP players constantly trying to change any game that designed for or with PvE in mind in basicly every game that comes along, god forbid a game isnt designed as them as the target audience.

Works both ways.

Ashes at its core is supposed to be as much about PvE as PvP. PvP is supposed to be a catalyst for change, but building is all about PvE.

There should be more to build than there is to change, as everything changed needs to first be built - thus Ashes should be PvE first, if we have to assume one comes before the other (I don't, I assume they are of equal importance, just pointing out that if Ashes is primarily one, it has to be the one that builds, not the one that changes).

The current state of the game is due to PvP players/posters whining, not PvE players/posters.

The notion in the OP - lawless areas with better rewards all around - will just result in those lawless areas being all about bringing as many people you can and demolishing said lawless areas. That is what any game like Ashes with that content will become.

Realistically, all that needs to be done is the threshold for dropping gear when killed while corrupt needs to be raised a small amount. If players know they can kill one or two players before they risk losing gear, those precious PvP players that don't want that risk should still be able to PvP.

Personally, I think they should stop being so precious, but that is just me. PvP players are such whiners.

Ludullu

STOP WITH THE FUCKING LAWLESS ZONES FFS. The fucking open sea change will become the biggest damn mistake of a design shift in AoC's history, I think. Because it has drawn all the "I want to kill everyone all the time" crowd into the game.

I played L2, that had a very similar flagging system to Ashes. I also played on servers that had "lawless zones", because private server admins thought it could be a cool addition. You know what would happen on literally every damn server? Those zones would be constantly overtaken by the strongest sweatiest players. And locked down, so that these players become even stronger.

And all of that happened in a game where death only came with negative xp penalty, which was even smaller in the lawless zones. ASHES HAS FUCKING LOOT ON DEATH. And yall want to add these zones to the most profitable locations, on top of that. It's asinine to believe that the game will have anywhere near a healthy population, with that kind design. Even those L2 servers barely survived, because even the super filtered hardcore population of L2 (who are waaaaaay more willing to suffer through endless pvp than majority of future Ashes players) still couldn't put up with that kind of design for too long.

Ashes is already built on the principle of "strong are strong and weak are weak". Yet people just keeeeep pushing it everfuther into the "endless snowball" area, where the strong will simply be gods, while the weak will simply leave. Like, the P2 situation with legendary mats was the greatest indication of exactly that. Sweaty hardcore players found the best way of becoming super strong. They then monopolized the fuck out of that way. Became literaly one-shot gods and the rest of the players left.

Lawless zones will accomplish the exact damn thing. So stop with this bullshit and just ask for proper corruption balancing and much better war design. Though either of those things should came later on in the alpha BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE BASIC STUFF STILL. Where's the dynamic gridding that would help with assessing your pvp situation? Where's node growth that's meant to layer mob lvls, instead of having a fucking thmepark layout of pve strength? Where's summoner and the npc AI required for it? Where's proper crafting cycles w/o full fucking items in the mob loot lists? Where's proper loot list distribution and gear type design that allow people to NOT farm the exact same spot for all of their needs?

Once we get AT LEAST all of that basic shit in the game - then we can start talking about what kind of pvp gameplay loops we gotta have around it. And supposedly we'll be getting it before/at, now delayed, P3 - so just, please, shut the hell up about the god damn lawless zones and wait a bit more.

K, thx, bye

Azherae

Ah, no, I stand corrected. From the latest Patch Notes:

Lawless zones now provide a buff that gives bonus XP and luck

So, Veeshan is right and while I'm obv still/more sad about it, it seems this may in fact be the path they're taking.

Noaani

Azherae wrote: »

Ah, no, I stand corrected. From the latest Patch Notes:

Lawless zones now provide a buff that gives bonus XP and luck

So, Veeshan is right and while I'm obv still/more sad about it, it seems this may in fact be the path they're taking.

If they are looking to take thwt path, this game really is shaping up to - at best - be kind of "meh".

Iffithy

Ludullu wrote: »

STOP WITH THE FUCKING LAWLESS ZONES FFS. The fucking open sea change will become the biggest damn mistake of a design shit in AoC's history, I think. Because it has drawn all the "I want to kill everyone all the time" crowd into the game.

I played L2, that had a very similar flagging system to Ashes. I also played on servers that had "lawless zones", because private server admins thought it could be a cool addition. You know what would happen on literally every damn server? Those zones would be constantly overtaken by the strongest sweatiest players. And locked down, so that these players become even stronger.

And all of that happened in a game where death only came with negative xp penalty, which was even smaller in the lawless zones. ASHES HAS FUCKING LOOT ON DEATH. And yall want to add these zones to the most profitable locations, on top of that. It's asinine to believe that the game will have anywhere near a healthy population, with that kind design. Even those L2 servers barely survived, because even the super filtered hardcore population of L2 (who are waaaaaay more willing to suffer through endless pvp than majority of future Ashes players) still couldn't put up with that kind of design for too long.

Ashes is already built on the principle of "strong are strong and weak are weak". Yet people just keeeeep pushing it everfuther into the "endless snowball" area, where the strong will simply be gods, while the weak will simply leave. Like, the P2 situation with legendary mats was the greatest indication of exactly that. Sweaty hardcore players found the best way of becoming super strong. They then monopolized the fuck out of that way. Became literaly one-shot gods and the rest of the players left.

Lawless zones will accomplish the exact damn thing. So stop with this bullshit and just ask for proper corruption balancing and much better war design. Though either of those things should came later on in the alpha BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE BASIC STUFF STILL. Where's the dynamic gridding that would help with assessing your pvp situation? Where's node growth that's meant to layer mob lvls, instead of having a fucking thmepark layout of pve strength? Where's summoner and the npc AI required for it? Where's proper crafting cycles w/o full fucking items in the mob loot lists? Where's proper loot list distribution and gear type design that allow people to NOT farm the exact same spot for all of their needs?

Once we get AT LEAST all of that basic shit in the game - then we can start talking about what kind of pvp gameplay loops we gotta have around it. And supposedly we'll be getting it before/at, now delayed, P3 - so just, please, shut the hell up about the god damn lawless zones and wait a bit more.

K, thx, bye

Ludullu for President!!!

I just want to say as a serious forum lurker, I always open this threads in fear to see more and more asking for more and more lawless zones, but I am glad there is at least a small number of humans who still want the balanced and meaningful game we thought we bought into( even metaphorically) years ago

@Ludullu keep fighting the good fight

lamina5432

So I get the whole argument of lawless zones allowing pvp you want to happen, but I think the people above are right that we just have an over inflated corruption right now to get some more systems tested in less griefing ways. That's also why I think they added the exp boos to the lawless zones and this is just guesswork but this lets them get people to test the new zones in there very unfinished state.

Also all these lawless zone posts seem to forget the node destruction mechanic which includes a week of lawless zone event when this occurs. A big part of why ashes is looking so interesting is because the interplay of the different types of systems on each other.

Another system I've heard talk of that isn't in the game and will make the corruption system more dynamic is the karma system. Apparently a system that builds up as you kill more players making it so there's a difference between a players corruption gain on their 1st versus their 50th kill. included is some religious quest system to work off said karma.

The point is the gameplay loops I see in the future in Ashes is supposed to lead you into experience different parts of the game and not sitting in one zone farming the better loot because that zone had less consequences when engaging in PvP activities.

As someone who hasn't long-term played a lot of PvX games the explanation of Azherae and Ludullu are very informative and I think good explanations on why the lawless zone idea is les ideal than is being put forward.
Also as someone who sometimes peruses these discussions from time to time these two are very active in giving lot of well thought out and I agree with Iffithy praise be there love and hard work for the game.

zbitango

If they want lawless to be in the ocean only, make water fighting better , cant swim up/down while attacking

>
And I also said to put near bis items or highly wanted mounts , but not the BIS items. That way guilds cant gatekeep endgame items like people are saying above.

But I do think, high end tames etc. should be in lawless, just not BIS gear.

And I do understand they are working on the Red system, but even with that system I still feel we will want some lawless inland areas to freely kill people and contest spawns.
Just don't force casuals to that area/zone to get gear... But if they want that shiny 180% mount , they gotta go contest for it or buy it from that guild holding the spawn.

I don't want to wait to talk about it either, why? This game is suppose to be player made/driven right? so that means HIGH amount of PVP will happen ALL OVER. to do just that, CONTROL.
And currently devs are HIGHLY favoring zergs , which sucks...
So IMO
PVP is one of the most important parts of the entire game , even if you don't pvp yourself..... So avoiding talking about the issues now isn't a way to fix/rework them later. Even if they are balancing the red system, we can still talk about it now and show the devs that people are or are not interested in lawless etc. and how they feel about it.

Devs want talk, feedback etc...

Ludullu

zbitango wrote: »

And currently devs are HIGHLY favoring zergs , which sucks...
So IMO

We should give zergs EVEN MORE OF AN ADVANTAGE

Funniest shit I've ever seen. Guild wars that can be properly controlled and balanced? Nah. Node wars that can limit the impact of any given guild that outside of them? Nah. The corruption system that would directly limit the zerg's ability to remove absolutely everyone from a location? Nah.

Lawless zoooones thouuuugh! Literally the tool of abuse for any zerg to fully control and exploit to their hearts' content. Now thaaaat's the good shit

Azherae

zbitango wrote: »

If they want lawless to be in the ocean only, make water fighting better , cant swim up/down while attacking >
And I also said to put near bis items or highly wanted mounts , but not the BIS items. That way guilds cant gatekeep endgame items like people are saying above.

But I do think, high end tames etc. should be in lawless, just not BIS gear.

And I do understand they are working on the Red system, but even with that system I still feel we will want some lawless inland areas to freely kill people and contest spawns.
Just don't force casuals to that area/zone to get gear... But if they want that shiny 180% mount , they gotta go contest for it or buy it from that guild holding the spawn.

I don't want to wait to talk about it either, why? This game is suppose to be player made/driven right? so that means HIGH amount of PVP will happen ALL OVER. to do just that, CONTROL.
And currently devs are HIGHLY favoring zergs , which sucks...
So IMO
PVP is one of the most important parts of the entire game , even if you don't pvp yourself..... So avoiding talking about the issues now isn't a way to fix/rework them later. Even if they are balancing the red system, we can still talk about it now and show the devs that people are or are not interested in lawless etc. and how they feel about it.

Devs want talk, feedback etc...

But the problem with this is that Intrepid wants to treat this game as something other than a themepark.

It's fine when Themepark PvP games have 'the shiny stuff' and 'the nearly BiS stuff' in areas you have to fight over.

But at that point, why would we even need this game? This type of PvP nullifies almost everything that makes Ashes uniquely interesting. If you have permanent lawless zones with rewarding content and minimal economic drag, it's just a BDO-tier PvP fairytale but with functionally Tab-Target combat and much too little good instanced PvE.

Not even the games that Ashes pulls a lot of its inspiration from ever combined these things successfully, so the feedback they will get from people who experienced the broken attempts will always be 'no this doesn't work'.

But in the case of specific aspects of the gameplay, it's fair to say that too, even to people who have entirely valid reasons for wanting that play experience.

No one's saying that you shouldn't be able to 'have fun and contest spots'. That's what lots of us absolutely want from this game. It's just that Lawless Zones are not the 'recommended' path to that.

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