Glorious Alpha Two Testers!
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
A Final Appeal for Level Sync in (at least) Instanced Content/Certain POI
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
tl;dr Most people are bad at games and need a longer learning curve that isn't flattened or destroyed by better geared players carrying them through instructive group content.
Everything after that above is basically fluff and my opinions, if you like those, read on.
Both FF11 and Throne and Liberty have some lower level instanced content and mini-bosses in the Open World that are meant to teach MMO newbies and solo players how to do things properly in group. Some people might think this is to teach people how to play those specific games. Nah.
If you have ever played a MOBA you probably know that's not what those are for. Those are for people who don't understand teamwork and need fights where you only need to understand the absolutely most basic mechanics. You can't 'tune them up', or rather, you can (see, Throne and Liberty, again), but the uptuned fight is not serving the original purpose at all, it's 'saving dev time and fleshing out an encounter that is probably kinda cool design wise but purposely dumbed down'.
This isn't the same as WoW Raiding either, because we're talking about people who need to practice 'move away from this while doing this', 'learn to watch for this situation so that you/someone else doesn't die'. This is particularly rough on new Tanks and Healers. When DPS are killing mobs before they can do anything and it's impossible to keep hate regardless, you are not learning anything related to tanking (and usually not healing either).
Please stop letting higher level players carry people who are learning, through content.
Please stop putting the onus for 'being ready to teach newbies' on us as high level players (having to have entire gearsets and groups for this purpose).
Please stop making newbies feel that when they join the game a year late they have to catch up on everything all at once and should only ever run the low level content once, therefore getting no multi-stage practice.
Please DO implement a form of Level Sync that uses Level X0 skill and gear loadouts (or tunes by Gear Tier expected for the content's launch cycle).
Please DO utilize your understanding of your own gear system and limits and AI to simplify those Sync options, such as 'equivalence' and 'basic downgrades' or 'slot-locking' so that high level players don't have to carry around gearsets for this.
Please DO encourage newbies to run lower level content with mentors multiple times even though that content is by design 'less engaging' to those mentors.
Please DO build a gearing system where running that content is still somewhat worth the time, even if it's only 1/4 as worth it economically.
I don't believe that Intrepid needs examples of this but just in case here are the simple ones, a real FF11 one and a theoretical Throne and Liberty one.
FF11: Level Sync of a rare level 44 Gear Piece with 26 Def, 1 STR, and 3% Haste, down to level 40, basically does this
Same for level 30, and even level 20.
Throne and Liberty: Level Sync of a fully Traited Epic-1 Weapon enhanced to +9 with 137 Base Damage, 9 Wisdom, and 11 Stamina Regen, down to 'Level 30 content', if aiming for any equivalent of the above would do this:
Result, high level players have their power reduced naturally in line with what they are already wearing and want to wear, they keep their builds for the most part, keep their traits within a range that lower level players would more realistically also have, and lower level players don't feel a need to 'rush to get everything fully traited just so that they don't feel like they are holding people back'.
Forgive me for bringing this up one last time, I figured no better time than now, when Intrepid's focus is on progression.
@Ludullu I'm counting on you for critiques, ignore the 'crossing zonelines' bit and even the 'no repeatable instanced content', bit and just humor the 'spirit' of the idea, because if Steven decides that we shouldn't be able to powerlevel newbies so hard that they are thrown into the deep end of gaming just so that they have anyone to play with, this is important. FF11 did not launch with Level Sync, they thought this was important enough to work on it and tweak it for months. And yes, it really did help. A lot.
Maybe Ashes isn't the sort of game that needs it, but I kinda 'want it to be the type of game that needs it'.
Everything after that above is basically fluff and my opinions, if you like those, read on.
Both FF11 and Throne and Liberty have some lower level instanced content and mini-bosses in the Open World that are meant to teach MMO newbies and solo players how to do things properly in group. Some people might think this is to teach people how to play those specific games. Nah.
If you have ever played a MOBA you probably know that's not what those are for. Those are for people who don't understand teamwork and need fights where you only need to understand the absolutely most basic mechanics. You can't 'tune them up', or rather, you can (see, Throne and Liberty, again), but the uptuned fight is not serving the original purpose at all, it's 'saving dev time and fleshing out an encounter that is probably kinda cool design wise but purposely dumbed down'.
This isn't the same as WoW Raiding either, because we're talking about people who need to practice 'move away from this while doing this', 'learn to watch for this situation so that you/someone else doesn't die'. This is particularly rough on new Tanks and Healers. When DPS are killing mobs before they can do anything and it's impossible to keep hate regardless, you are not learning anything related to tanking (and usually not healing either).
Please stop letting higher level players carry people who are learning, through content.
Please stop putting the onus for 'being ready to teach newbies' on us as high level players (having to have entire gearsets and groups for this purpose).
Please stop making newbies feel that when they join the game a year late they have to catch up on everything all at once and should only ever run the low level content once, therefore getting no multi-stage practice.
Please DO implement a form of Level Sync that uses Level X0 skill and gear loadouts (or tunes by Gear Tier expected for the content's launch cycle).
Please DO utilize your understanding of your own gear system and limits and AI to simplify those Sync options, such as 'equivalence' and 'basic downgrades' or 'slot-locking' so that high level players don't have to carry around gearsets for this.
Please DO encourage newbies to run lower level content with mentors multiple times even though that content is by design 'less engaging' to those mentors.
Please DO build a gearing system where running that content is still somewhat worth the time, even if it's only 1/4 as worth it economically.
I don't believe that Intrepid needs examples of this but just in case here are the simple ones, a real FF11 one and a theoretical Throne and Liberty one.
FF11: Level Sync of a rare level 44 Gear Piece with 26 Def, 1 STR, and 3% Haste, down to level 40, basically does this
- Checks what 'type' of gear it is, roughly. Let's assume it's 'heavy armor'.
- Checks what the 'best' non-outlier Def score on any level 40 Heavy Armor gear in that slot is
- Checks whether the game 'even allows' gear below level 40 in that slot to have Haste on it and if so, what the max value is
- Sets the values of the gear when Synced to 40 to the values found when under Level Sync.
Same for level 30, and even level 20.
Throne and Liberty: Level Sync of a fully Traited Epic-1 Weapon enhanced to +9 with 137 Base Damage, 9 Wisdom, and 11 Stamina Regen, down to 'Level 30 content', if aiming for any equivalent of the above would do this:
- Checks what 'type' of gear it is, roughly. Let's assume it's 'debuffing' (affects which traits it has)
- Checks what the 'best' non-outlier Attack Value score on any Rare (Blue T1) 'debuffing' Weapon of the same type, is
- Checks whether the game 'even allows' Blue T1 Gear below level 40 in that slot to have Stamina Regen on it and if so, what the max value is
- Checks the effect of the equivalent Blue T1 'Debuffing' Weapon, compared to Stamina Regen (to decide if to grant the Stamina Regen or the Blue Weapon effect)
- Checks whether to treat the Weapon as 'having one level of each of the assigned traits' or '3 levels (the max allowed on Blue Gear) based on the Gear Score assigned to the Content.
- Sets the values of the gear when Synced to a Level 30 Instance to the values found.
Result, high level players have their power reduced naturally in line with what they are already wearing and want to wear, they keep their builds for the most part, keep their traits within a range that lower level players would more realistically also have, and lower level players don't feel a need to 'rush to get everything fully traited just so that they don't feel like they are holding people back'.
Forgive me for bringing this up one last time, I figured no better time than now, when Intrepid's focus is on progression.
@Ludullu I'm counting on you for critiques, ignore the 'crossing zonelines' bit and even the 'no repeatable instanced content', bit and just humor the 'spirit' of the idea, because if Steven decides that we shouldn't be able to powerlevel newbies so hard that they are thrown into the deep end of gaming just so that they have anyone to play with, this is important. FF11 did not launch with Level Sync, they thought this was important enough to work on it and tweak it for months. And yes, it really did help. A lot.
Maybe Ashes isn't the sort of game that needs it, but I kinda 'want it to be the type of game that needs it'.
You can always have my opinions, they are On The House.
0
Comments
You say it's mostly about teaching them the ropes, but I'm not really sure to what extent that help would be really useful. Obviously we don't really have proper mob... well... ANYTHING in the game yet, so it's hard to say if people would even NEED help.
But if/once we do get better PvE, I'd be all for this kind of system in an instanced situation, with some reward for the newbie (cause they inevitably have to catch up in some way) and benefit for the mentor (be that a guild-related one or a personal progress one).
Iirc a few years ago I suggested a system-based gear loaning, where crafters that need to level up their artisanry could give up the gear they make to a node (for a reward of course) and then newbies can loan the gear to progress. This could be a faux-sink for items, cause they'd get out of the direct economy, but would still have an impact on the playerbase. And then maybe Divine nodes would have instanced catacombs where both the mentor and the student can go practice, while using that gear.
Obviously this would still require the highbie char stat squish, but that goes w/o saying, I assume. And as for stat values/effects on the current highbie gear and preferences for them (as you point out) - I dunno to what extent the gear design will be different cross-grades, so not sure if just changing to an existing lowbie set would be too much different from a highbie set, effects/passives-wise.
As for 'how much people need help', the answer is as always 'a lot'. I can give examples from many actual fights where different Guild Members have moved to assist other players in DCNM/BCNM over the years where the player has definitely run the dungeon multiple times before and yet knows neither the mechanics nor their role.
Bear in mind I'm still talking about PvE on the tier of Talus moreso than complex stuff, precisely because complexity that goes beyond 2-3 things is too hard for the below-average/aspiring-to-be-average player.
Your other notes are things I would also suggest or want, having loadouts for 'level cap' would be good and is common in FF11, and possible (though obv not common) in TL, and TL would need this to handle the Stat Squish aspect so I presume that Ashes would too.
I normally don't give any opinion on 'the benefit to the mentor', people exploit everything. A Guild benefit might not be too unsafe...
So to answer your question:
"would this be purely for teaching party play, with proper mob mechanics, etc. Or would it be a thing where mentors help gear/lvl their mentees throughout leveling?"
Depends on the designer, but I can say that I'm not thinking of it as something that has a purpose other than 'helps teach party play', in Ashes. FF11's economy is metastable enough that they can afford to 'let people Level Sync and still get appropriate drops'. TL lets you join the content without Sync (instanced) and still get the drops too, you just don't 'want' them as much. So both of those games 'can implement Level Sync with only a Development time cost' (or at least, the weird player reactions can be minimized).
I can see your concern, given how Ashes' stuff is designed so far, about this, but I prefer not to think about those aspects until further improvements to progression are added to AoC.
Being able to play with my friends or not have to worry about I've gap when it comes to my wife's char.
I would like to be able to level up or down. MMOs like GW2 does it. Later when most people have top level chars this would make lower level areas have more support or help new players get a real team to learn team dynamics.