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Casuel Feedback

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Comments

  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Making a game 'casual friendly' is almost always a 'slippery slope' to making the game actually easier, though.

    Because things are comparative, so if a player takes 6h to make an item and that payoff-feeling is good to them, what usually happens is that 'casuals' want the same item. And that happens mostly because of all the people who can 'only' play 4.5 hours who can't manage to get the item in one session and then never shut up about that in World Chat.

    It's a form of erosion. There is always someone who has slightly less than the 'session' time the game has set for an 'achievement' who will complain that the 'session time' should be shorter so they can get it. This problem is technically entirely separate from how much actual fun the activity to get the item is, because that's just how many people are.

    I'm not trying to argue that Intrepid is already 'up to code' and basically at 'best practices', we all know they are not. I'm saying that there's no way for them to know if you are that 'person, in this case'.

    There are many designs of game where the way to solve this is actually to put a timer drag on people with only slightly more than the 'session time' to play, but those people are even more vocally abrasive than the 'quiet quitters'.

    Sometimes I think the only reason older MMOs ever worked was selection bias, before WoW came along and basically just kept giving both of those complainer-types what they wanted.

    At some point, if you 'get what you want' (assuming you could define it) you'd end up being the one 'defending' it from someone who just wants it to be 'a little easier, a little more convenient', and down the ladder we'd go.

    I think the best gear should be out of reach of most casual players. You give a good example. A hard core player put a large amount of time into making an item. Let's say for a Fighter its an awesome sword. Forget 6hrs. Let's go big. 60hrs or crafting and gathering to make and process it. Here is the two outcomes that makes it fair for casuals.

    1. Making it possible for a caual to have access to that weapon with the same amount of time. So instead of a couple of weeks, it take the casual player months but they can do it under the right circumstances.
    2. This option follows what IS has already setup on some level. We have gear quality and also i think its three types of classes of gear, each one a little better but not as good as the gear you use the rarest of resources.

    You can make crafting casual if that persists to end gear. The casual friendly could have the quality levels but not t h ebraeest resorces making that fighters sword easier to get but 15% less damage, stats, procs and so on. This puts in the hands of the hard core an advantage but for the casual player a chance to still win with skill and tactics.

    The game does not need to be easier it just needs to think within the casuals time frame. If you can do that to most areas of the game. You will win the casual market and Ashes needs to to keep the lights on.

    Sure casuals that just want to be on the same footing as the hard core player in every way, will go play DotA.

    Yes but you see that last line, it's super important.

    Really old MMOs got supplanted by WoW not just because WoW was streamlined or because of the IP, but because it kept removing friction.

    It doesn't matter how much you or I want games to be complex, and note I'm not talking about 'hard' anymore at all, just complexity, or if you prefer, 'depth'.

    Depth means more thinking is required to succeed 'comparatively' within the game's community, even the best designers mostly cannot escape this, because if you make most players 'only good at one thing' they are outpaced by players who are good at 3 things.

    The casual does not 'win' with skill or tactics unless you segregate the parts of the game from each other. What happens is that the casual leaves, and the community redefines 'casual'.
    "Save us, Jake Song!"
  • nanfoodlenanfoodle Member, Founder, Kickstarter, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 20
    Azherae wrote: »
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    Azherae wrote: »
    Making a game 'casual friendly' is almost always a 'slippery slope' to making the game actually easier, though.

    Because things are comparative, so if a player takes 6h to make an item and that payoff-feeling is good to them, what usually happens is that 'casuals' want the same item. And that happens mostly because of all the people who can 'only' play 4.5 hours who can't manage to get the item in one session and then never shut up about that in World Chat.

    It's a form of erosion. There is always someone who has slightly less than the 'session' time the game has set for an 'achievement' who will complain that the 'session time' should be shorter so they can get it. This problem is technically entirely separate from how much actual fun the activity to get the item is, because that's just how many people are.

    I'm not trying to argue that Intrepid is already 'up to code' and basically at 'best practices', we all know they are not. I'm saying that there's no way for them to know if you are that 'person, in this case'.

    There are many designs of game where the way to solve this is actually to put a timer drag on people with only slightly more than the 'session time' to play, but those people are even more vocally abrasive than the 'quiet quitters'.

    Sometimes I think the only reason older MMOs ever worked was selection bias, before WoW came along and basically just kept giving both of those complainer-types what they wanted.

    At some point, if you 'get what you want' (assuming you could define it) you'd end up being the one 'defending' it from someone who just wants it to be 'a little easier, a little more convenient', and down the ladder we'd go.

    I think the best gear should be out of reach of most casual players. You give a good example. A hard core player put a large amount of time into making an item. Let's say for a Fighter its an awesome sword. Forget 6hrs. Let's go big. 60hrs or crafting and gathering to make and process it. Here is the two outcomes that makes it fair for casuals.

    1. Making it possible for a caual to have access to that weapon with the same amount of time. So instead of a couple of weeks, it take the casual player months but they can do it under the right circumstances.
    2. This option follows what IS has already setup on some level. We have gear quality and also i think its three types of classes of gear, each one a little better but not as good as the gear you use the rarest of resources.

    You can make crafting casual if that persists to end gear. The casual friendly could have the quality levels but not t h ebraeest resorces making that fighters sword easier to get but 15% less damage, stats, procs and so on. This puts in the hands of the hard core an advantage but for the casual player a chance to still win with skill and tactics.

    The game does not need to be easier it just needs to think within the casuals time frame. If you can do that to most areas of the game. You will win the casual market and Ashes needs to to keep the lights on.

    Sure casuals that just want to be on the same footing as the hard core player in every way, will go play DotA.

    Yes but you see that last line, it's super important.

    Really old MMOs got supplanted by WoW not just because WoW was streamlined or because of the IP, but because it kept removing friction.

    It doesn't matter how much you or I want games to be complex, and note I'm not talking about 'hard' anymore at all, just complexity, or if you prefer, 'depth'.

    Depth means more thinking is required to succeed 'comparatively' within the game's community, even the best designers mostly cannot escape this, because if you make most players 'only good at one thing' they are outpaced by players who are good at 3 things.

    The casual does not 'win' with skill or tactics unless you segregate the parts of the game from each other. What happens is that the casual leaves, and the community redefines 'casual'.

    I used the word depth because I have also been giving feedback that allot of ashes complex systems are just that and overly clicky with no design with fun in mind. Its complex for the sake of being complex. I think Dteven thinks that makes a crafting system that has depth and it does not.

    As for casuals never being able to compete. That's entirely up to the game developer. For instance you take World of Warcraft and their PVP. Their gear system when you were top end PVP geared gave you somewhere around a 65 75% advantage over someone just wearing common gear. I remember going into PVP and killing three and five people against me without a problem. In my example that you quoted I talked about a 15% difference between the casuals best year they can make without using rare resources versus a hardcore player that has the time to craft the top end Gear with the rare resources. When you have a gap between those two best if it's a 15 20 25% Gap in gear quality that still gives the casual a chance to win with tactics and skill. You get to the 50% or more there's just not a chance and it's no longer a fun game. And in my opinion if you are going to make a PVP game, it should be skilled that always has the chance to win.

    But that's not the point of this thread. I made it because I want people to give feedback on what they would like to see to make this game more casual friendly without breaking the fact that this game is old school and hardcore. And it can be done if you're skillful with what you implement. There are a lot of casual players like myself who used to be a hardcore player but with real life circumstances now only play casual time. I want that hard core game but I do need tools to make my time count when I play
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    nanfoodle wrote: »
    That line of thinking would be cherry picking what you want to hear. Yes this game will be hard and challenging. This also does not mean with a few hours of game play, you cant feel rewarded and happy with short play sessions. This game will fail with the support of casuel players. For Ashes to make it. It will need to make casuals the backbone of the game. This does not mean Ashes needs to be easy. That is the misconception that keeps being missed here. Steven has talked at length many times this game will be for casuals. Don't think it matters anyways.
    Casual Challenge is not the same thing as "easy".
    Also, including challenges that can be completed within 30-40 minutes and including challenges that are not Hardcore, does not mean most challenges will not be Hardcore.

    Maybe you, specifically, can't feel rewarded and happy with short play sessions if your ideal playstyle is Hardcore Challenge/Hardcore Time. Obviously, people whose ideal playstyle is Casual Time will feel rewarded and happy with short play sessions if there are rewards for completing tasks and quests in Casual Time. And people who are Casual Challenge players, will feel rewarded and happy as long as there are Casual rewards, like Cosmetics.

    Ashes is going to be very niche in any case because Steven is obsessed with Hardcore Challenge and high Risk. In his view, nothing is truly rewarding without high Risk. Steven actually has disdain for Casual gameplay, even though there are quotes where he will state that he understands Casual players are important.

    Steven has designed Ashes for gamers who love Hardcore challenges and who have Hardcore time to play every day, like he used to befor he turned 30. Ashes isn't for everyone. It's definitely not designed for Casual players.
  • DygzDygz Member, Braver of Worlds, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    edited September 20
    Players whose ideal playstyle is Casual Challenge or Casual Time or both are not really interested in being on the same footing with Hardcore players in every way.
    Could be that gamers whose ideal playstyle is Hardcore Challenge/Hardcore Time will want to be on the same footing as their compadres - even though they can no longer invest Hardcore Time.

    If I am focused on Casual Challenges, I don't need "the best gear". I just need gear that is good enough to complete the Challenges I'm interested in. And I'm probably going to be most interested in Cosmetics and Titles, rather than "the best gear".

    Casual Time players can have friends and Guildmates who donate the best resources. I don't really understand why Casual Time would be unable to make or acquire the best items if they want to.
    But, yeah, based on your examples... you seem to be contemplating players who have become Hardcore Challenge/Casual Time players, though their ideal playstyle is Hardcore Challenge/Hardcore Time.

    Seems like Ashes is designed overwhelmingly for Hardcore Challenge/Hardcore Time gamers. Hardcore Challenge/Casual Time players will probably have to lean on their Guildmates to compete with Hardcore Challenge/Hardcore Time gamers.
  • blktaunablktauna Member, Alpha Two
    Crafting is crap and disrespectful of time as it stands. Overly complex at low levels and resource stupid. It is not intuitive in any way and this is an area they can improve on hugely. Scale the complexity to the level of product being made. A plain axe should not take 4 hours of tree chopping 5 hours of copper mining, 1 hour of wood refining 1 hour of copper refining, basalt mining for the weapon mould, an insane amount of fuel and a node with working stations. Yes for high level pieces, you'd expect extra care, complexity, special fuels, special mining etc, but not a starter item you can buy for less money that what you had to use to make the thing.

    The whole crafting "system" needs to be assessed and made useful and fun.
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