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Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Rogue Critique
chadautry
Member, Alpha Two
I enjoy Rogue, and it will likely be my main at release. Having not played since just after the first Rogue rebalance, I was a bit disappointed there weren't any further tweaks since then. These are my comments and analyses of weird and NEGATIVE things about the rogue skill tree and abilities, both major and minor which would make the Rogue even more enjoyable to play if they were addressed.
1. Stab: "Stab's Cooldown is halved when used from stealth" -- Ok bonus super early, but this is superfluous starting level 11 with Ruthless. If I care about stab cooldown, I am taking Ruthless. And 95% of attacks from stealth will be with 2 Advantage. A bonus to crit damage instead would be useful at any level to any build attacking from stealth.
2. Abilities which consume Advantage for an additional effect should have the ability to be used without Advantage. This is particularly an issue with Lacerate and Kick, where consuming Advantage is actually a Disadvantage for a single target DPS rotation (which would rather use the Advantage on a Backstab)
3. Lacerate: Hemorrhaging is soo strong, and there aren't many other sources of it (yet) in the game. It feels crazy Lacerate gets it soo easily. Maybe Lacerate should be AOE in it base form, and get Hemo for spending Advantage?
3.a I just noticed when spell check corrected my typing up the last point, but it is spelled Hemorrhage and Hemorrhaging. Not 'Hemorraging' which is what the tooltips say
4. Feint: When in tab-target camera mode, it will misalign the character and the camera view.
For example if I use Feint from the front of my target, my character will rotate 180 to face the back of the target, but the camera remains pointed in the same direction. If I then use RMB for look-to-turn, my character immediately flips around to face the camera.
Action-mode camera doesn't suffer from this issue. Shadow Step does not suffer from this issue.
I consider this a MAJOR issue/bug, and is the main thing I am surprised wasn't addressed.
4.a When looking for a workaround to the issue, I realized the game is missing a 'Reset Camera Behind Character' button
5. Feint or Shadow Step + Backstab: I expect this is supposed to be an intended combo which is supposed to be reliable and easy to pull off. It is irritating when network latency, or the game hitching, or the NPC AI wigging out makes the Backstab fail for technical reasons outside of my control and skill. (This was actually a big contributor to why I stopped playing at the start of phase 2.5) It would be a *HUGE* QOL improvement if there was some programmatic grace period built in, where a Stab used right after a Feint or Shadow Step is always a Backstab
6. Throw + Upgrades: Good abilities that lean towards an AOE rogue. It'd be nice if there was an alternative upgrade path for Single Target/Assassin rogue (Maybe looses the bounces, but gains snare?)
7. Thrash + Trounce: There seems to be some intended combo that failed in the design. Trounce is good for AOE spreading poison.
At first glance it seems like the best way to use it, would be time abilities to make the third attack of Trounce an AOE, to also AOE spread Bleed. But if you're AOE spreading bleed, you probably want to follow up with AOE Lacerate for the Hemo. The order doesn't work. You want to spend advantage with Lacerate to activate Trounce and get AOE bleed, but Lacerate gives that AOE bleed + You want to follow up with Lacerate after the trounce for AOE Hemo.
Bleed is also soo easy to get (weapon finishers, Lacerate, Throw, Shadow Cascade) that having it tied to the third hit of Thrash is just kind of overcomplicated and meh. If instead of Bleed it applied Exposed, I think that would make it a worth while part of an ability combo. Thrash --> Throw --> Thrash --> Lacerate --> Trounce AOE Thrash
8. Thrash/Flurry: Minor wording, I think 'does not interrupt your weapon combo' would be more accurately phrased as 'does not reset your weapon combo' since combo attacks are paused while the ability attacks are performed
9. Double Strike: At first glance looks versatile and powerful. In practice that versatility makes it only useful for meme builds. If I could spend a point for an extra charge on Thump, I would do so. But in practice I'll almost always use a Stab or Lacerate before I need Thump to interrupt an ability again. If I want to churn out multiple Stab/Lacerate in a practical way I'll use Ruthless and combine that with ways to gain advantage.
10. Foreshadowing: I struggle to see any build that would include this. Take and use feint instead. *Maybe* it is possible to get high enough attack speed that a full basic attack combo is just under 3 seconds, so it will combo with Smoke bomb.
11. Anemia: The interaction with bleed makes it feel related to an AOE build, but an AOE build is less likely to CC. Not bad, just gives conflicting signals.
12. Ethereal: Almost certainly overpowered, but it'd definitely feel nice as a Rogue (and on theme) if the upgrade also applied to Umbral Cloak and Shadow Cascade.
13. Adrenaline: Too many active abilities! I'd love to just have a full-move-speed while Stealthed passive instead.
14. Cold Embrace: Another talent with little use, outside of a niche scenario (like two coordinated Rogues). Or needs a Johnny combo of THREE OTHER HIGH LEVEL TALENTS (Padded Toolbelt + Smoke Bomb + Shiver Vapor)
15: Padded Toolbelt: Speaking of, Padded Toolbelt is only good for Grappling Hook or trolling. Expanded Toolbelt is the only choice which makes sense for combat use.
Throw: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Sleep Dart: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Poison: Short duration in combat buff. Detrimental to use before combat starts (loose time applying/refreshing poison)
Caltrops: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Smoke Bomb: I use this in order to enter stealth! Why would I care about using it while stealthed? (Other than to troll)
Grappling Hook: I love having Padded Toolbelt, because I hate grappling to the top of a cliff to come face to face with a bear.
IMO Padded Toolbelt should be a Grappling Hook specific upgrade. If an alternative choice is still desired for Expanded Toolbelt, I'd suggest having one with no cooldown on tools. But they cost 30 Stamina to use.
16. Stealth: Finally, the elephant in the room. With the delays to Rogue because of stealth, I was very disappointed by the very basic level based system given. Advantage is cool, but Advantage != Stealth. It is only an alternate resource system. Stealth is not being seen.
The info on stealth detection is too fuzzy IMO. There should be hard numbers on distance/angles/duration. Preferably visible on the Rogue's UI.
Show a character's 'detection angle' on the selection circle, similarly to how facing is shown now.
If being detected is based on time, then flash characters Yellow who are about to detect the Rogue (similar to how they flash if they are preventing the Rogue from entering stealth) (maybe even make that a passive upgrade)
For being the Stealth Archetype, there are basically no skills or abilities to improve or modify Stealth. Smoke Bomb and Padded Toolbelt are kinda it. (Soothing Shadows and Foreshadowing affect combat, not sneakiness)
There should be Skill Tree skills which impact Stealth such as, Active skill to let the rogue move slower, but have huge bonuses.
Passive skills to increase the time needed for the Rogue to be detected, or to decrease the Field Of View angles they are detected at.
From the other side, loosing targeting on a Rogue in PvP because they hit the stealth button or got just far enough away is too punishing. The detection/visibility mechanic should take into account if a rogue is targeted and continue to make the rogue targeted/seen at further distances and wider angles even if they are in stealth. They should remain targeted for a period of time after breaking LOS instead of vanishing immediately.
1. Stab: "Stab's Cooldown is halved when used from stealth" -- Ok bonus super early, but this is superfluous starting level 11 with Ruthless. If I care about stab cooldown, I am taking Ruthless. And 95% of attacks from stealth will be with 2 Advantage. A bonus to crit damage instead would be useful at any level to any build attacking from stealth.
2. Abilities which consume Advantage for an additional effect should have the ability to be used without Advantage. This is particularly an issue with Lacerate and Kick, where consuming Advantage is actually a Disadvantage for a single target DPS rotation (which would rather use the Advantage on a Backstab)
3. Lacerate: Hemorrhaging is soo strong, and there aren't many other sources of it (yet) in the game. It feels crazy Lacerate gets it soo easily. Maybe Lacerate should be AOE in it base form, and get Hemo for spending Advantage?
3.a I just noticed when spell check corrected my typing up the last point, but it is spelled Hemorrhage and Hemorrhaging. Not 'Hemorraging' which is what the tooltips say
4. Feint: When in tab-target camera mode, it will misalign the character and the camera view.
For example if I use Feint from the front of my target, my character will rotate 180 to face the back of the target, but the camera remains pointed in the same direction. If I then use RMB for look-to-turn, my character immediately flips around to face the camera.
Action-mode camera doesn't suffer from this issue. Shadow Step does not suffer from this issue.
I consider this a MAJOR issue/bug, and is the main thing I am surprised wasn't addressed.
4.a When looking for a workaround to the issue, I realized the game is missing a 'Reset Camera Behind Character' button
5. Feint or Shadow Step + Backstab: I expect this is supposed to be an intended combo which is supposed to be reliable and easy to pull off. It is irritating when network latency, or the game hitching, or the NPC AI wigging out makes the Backstab fail for technical reasons outside of my control and skill. (This was actually a big contributor to why I stopped playing at the start of phase 2.5) It would be a *HUGE* QOL improvement if there was some programmatic grace period built in, where a Stab used right after a Feint or Shadow Step is always a Backstab
6. Throw + Upgrades: Good abilities that lean towards an AOE rogue. It'd be nice if there was an alternative upgrade path for Single Target/Assassin rogue (Maybe looses the bounces, but gains snare?)
7. Thrash + Trounce: There seems to be some intended combo that failed in the design. Trounce is good for AOE spreading poison.
At first glance it seems like the best way to use it, would be time abilities to make the third attack of Trounce an AOE, to also AOE spread Bleed. But if you're AOE spreading bleed, you probably want to follow up with AOE Lacerate for the Hemo. The order doesn't work. You want to spend advantage with Lacerate to activate Trounce and get AOE bleed, but Lacerate gives that AOE bleed + You want to follow up with Lacerate after the trounce for AOE Hemo.
Bleed is also soo easy to get (weapon finishers, Lacerate, Throw, Shadow Cascade) that having it tied to the third hit of Thrash is just kind of overcomplicated and meh. If instead of Bleed it applied Exposed, I think that would make it a worth while part of an ability combo. Thrash --> Throw --> Thrash --> Lacerate --> Trounce AOE Thrash
8. Thrash/Flurry: Minor wording, I think 'does not interrupt your weapon combo' would be more accurately phrased as 'does not reset your weapon combo' since combo attacks are paused while the ability attacks are performed
9. Double Strike: At first glance looks versatile and powerful. In practice that versatility makes it only useful for meme builds. If I could spend a point for an extra charge on Thump, I would do so. But in practice I'll almost always use a Stab or Lacerate before I need Thump to interrupt an ability again. If I want to churn out multiple Stab/Lacerate in a practical way I'll use Ruthless and combine that with ways to gain advantage.
10. Foreshadowing: I struggle to see any build that would include this. Take and use feint instead. *Maybe* it is possible to get high enough attack speed that a full basic attack combo is just under 3 seconds, so it will combo with Smoke bomb.
11. Anemia: The interaction with bleed makes it feel related to an AOE build, but an AOE build is less likely to CC. Not bad, just gives conflicting signals.
12. Ethereal: Almost certainly overpowered, but it'd definitely feel nice as a Rogue (and on theme) if the upgrade also applied to Umbral Cloak and Shadow Cascade.
13. Adrenaline: Too many active abilities! I'd love to just have a full-move-speed while Stealthed passive instead.
14. Cold Embrace: Another talent with little use, outside of a niche scenario (like two coordinated Rogues). Or needs a Johnny combo of THREE OTHER HIGH LEVEL TALENTS (Padded Toolbelt + Smoke Bomb + Shiver Vapor)
15: Padded Toolbelt: Speaking of, Padded Toolbelt is only good for Grappling Hook or trolling. Expanded Toolbelt is the only choice which makes sense for combat use.
Throw: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Sleep Dart: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Poison: Short duration in combat buff. Detrimental to use before combat starts (loose time applying/refreshing poison)
Caltrops: Offensive ability, shouldn't be able to remain hidden after use
Smoke Bomb: I use this in order to enter stealth! Why would I care about using it while stealthed? (Other than to troll)
Grappling Hook: I love having Padded Toolbelt, because I hate grappling to the top of a cliff to come face to face with a bear.
IMO Padded Toolbelt should be a Grappling Hook specific upgrade. If an alternative choice is still desired for Expanded Toolbelt, I'd suggest having one with no cooldown on tools. But they cost 30 Stamina to use.
16. Stealth: Finally, the elephant in the room. With the delays to Rogue because of stealth, I was very disappointed by the very basic level based system given. Advantage is cool, but Advantage != Stealth. It is only an alternate resource system. Stealth is not being seen.
The info on stealth detection is too fuzzy IMO. There should be hard numbers on distance/angles/duration. Preferably visible on the Rogue's UI.
Show a character's 'detection angle' on the selection circle, similarly to how facing is shown now.
If being detected is based on time, then flash characters Yellow who are about to detect the Rogue (similar to how they flash if they are preventing the Rogue from entering stealth) (maybe even make that a passive upgrade)
For being the Stealth Archetype, there are basically no skills or abilities to improve or modify Stealth. Smoke Bomb and Padded Toolbelt are kinda it. (Soothing Shadows and Foreshadowing affect combat, not sneakiness)
There should be Skill Tree skills which impact Stealth such as, Active skill to let the rogue move slower, but have huge bonuses.
Passive skills to increase the time needed for the Rogue to be detected, or to decrease the Field Of View angles they are detected at.
From the other side, loosing targeting on a Rogue in PvP because they hit the stealth button or got just far enough away is too punishing. The detection/visibility mechanic should take into account if a rogue is targeted and continue to make the rogue targeted/seen at further distances and wider angles even if they are in stealth. They should remain targeted for a period of time after breaking LOS instead of vanishing immediately.
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