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Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Farming, Cooking, Fishing and other things no one cares about
KrystalKitten
Member, Leader of Men, Kickstarter, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
in Artisanship
Hi all! Kala Silverheart here, this has taken me a few weeks to write so....
Phase 3 has been kinda weird for artisans hasn't it? but ya know I think they are kinda going in the right direction, now make no mistake this post will have its mandated complaining about unfished things but as someone who because of Steven's words decided during the Kickstarter that I will ONLY focus on Cooking/Farming despite generally the things that no one cares about in MMORPGs I feel it is my duty to share more feelings as the Alpha continues.
First we need to say something, Thank you for continuing to not have things in the vendor items, as I believe this destroys the player driven artisan economy. Let me explain. I have been playing since Apoc, now in P1 we had vendor items, alot of them, all the way up to Journeyman these things costed a few copper to a few silver. Now this was maybe? to help with progression, some are not lucky in drops and it's just easer to go buy a thing from a vendor that will be at your level. In theory this was to help people get common gear as they leveled as Journeyman artisanship was a pipe dream and you could just grind Carphan for about an 4 hour session and have a team filled with green drops...but ya know what this did for the individual artisan? made their crafts useless. as no one cared about that Bow that costed 200 wood, 120 copper and a few slate when you could just have something better by grinding a mob for an hour, because the HOURS it would take to gather, process, craft that 1 weapon wasn't worth it because you would end up spending a gold or 2 to make it.
But what does this have to do with Cooking?
Well lets look at the cook house. back in P1 the Blackberry Compote, Fresh Salad, and Fruit salad (which i still thing should be removed but let me cook on this) sold for a few coppers, i think at most they were about 55c (I should have had better notes) but now they are selling for 1s60c this is....while not ideal as it sets a maximum price a cook can charge it takes (on average with a 10% tax at the home node so as close to the cheapest I can make by making 250 (quantity is actually cheaper per craft) and taking in using oak/larch for fuel which drives the cost down (accounting for selling things to vendors as a base cost)) it takes about 50-60c to craft 1 of these items (remember this is the dirt cheapest I've been able to do) so the vendor sells them for a little over 3x what it costs to craft. So if a vendor is selling it for at cost/cheaper to craft...well why take the time to gather/craft? just buy the item but with the vendor selling it for less then what it costs a crafter this gives the Crafters a way to craft and sell it cheaper then the vendor but still sets a maximum price for what people will pay
This explains why having any vendor item that can also be a crafted item hurts the economy, why take the time to gather/process/craft something (which could take HOURS alone or a very large guild.....seconds) when you can just go buy it for cheaper? answer you don't you buy it and move on. which means having vendors sell Journeyman level items makes crafting Novice and Apprentice items....useless....or as we said in big guilds "If it's not Epic/Lego no one wants it"
So what has this have to do with Farming.
First and I will say this whole heartedly THANK YOU FOR GIVING US A NON-POOP RECIPIE FOR FARMING!!
with that being said.....now i kind of want it back....Let me explain
In P1-2 farming...ALL FARMING at the NOVICE level required poop, water, seed. so poop, and 2 vendor items which while poop was less dropped (get it) then it seems to be in P3 (thank you) it made all farming close to the same price, between 30-50c per craft. So lets directly compare 2 thing that I know changed. Flax and Cotton. In P2 both of these required a vendor seed, water and gathered poop. Both when crafted costed about 35-40c but now this phase? Flax is the same...but Cotton now is 1.6ish Silver.... that's a x4 increase to make something that is NOVICE level! now i know you can make mulch
****Edited 9/25***
What followed was a 4 paragraph rant about in Icarus farming required Dirt+Wood to make a plot then a seed and water and time to grow a crop and how much I enjoyed farming and wished fish could be used in place of poop but I logged in today and found that all novice farming required mulch which can be made from woodchips + so many other base novice things.
How did I feel seeing this? well currently I am crying and this is playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZEtVbJT5c
and now i have to update my spreadsheet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1jkj1l-mlM&t=3s
********End of Edit*******
Now speaking of time...this is what Farming should do as a balance, instead of in game Money its Time that take Farming the longest...lets use Cotton, you have 1 Cotton as 15 minutes....ok but lets do a stack of 250 (other then needing +40G meaning Cotton costs more to make then Cows (Apprentice Farming) and Sheep (Journeyman Farming) COMBINED)(at P2 Prices) would take close to 2.5 DAYS to finish......and....I'm kind of ok with that. But why not just make a stack of 250 farming things 24 hours, just all farming things, make it still cheep (about 60s for a stack of 250 Flax) but it takes 24 hours...so farming is cheep to do but LONG on the time. so while it may be 6 copper per any novice farming to make stuff, its gonna take 3 minutes or something to make 1 thing, Farming should be cheap to do but long on the time.
This brings me to my next point, it was cheaper in the last phase to do stuff, you seem to be limiting the Journeyman levels but making it more expensive to raise your Novice/Apprentice levels, these should be cheep, the Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster levels should be where you need money or just keep the Novice cheep, as in not everyone is gonna be an Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster in things but everyone is gonna be a novice so why are you gatekeeping with raising prices? it already was expensive at Apprentice/Journeyman levels why make Novice alot more expensive to do? you are just making the higher levels even more obtainable. Yes I know you can change it, I know you can set things back, but if things are already hard to craft in the first 2 phases why make it even harder in this phase?
So since by the Grace of the 7 you made Mulch the basic need for all farming, I would drop the price back to old levels. Looking at all the old Novice mulch it costs about 15c each but now each mulch is close to 2 silver each....think this is a novice recipe a friend showed me a Bow, it took 2 braidwood, a few prepared yardage ..so like 20 flowers i think it was and over 600 Ash to produce. this was a Journeyman bow i think...but i go back to my cooking at Journeyman and if you change some things you've more then well.....its just not worth it to cook something that will cost you 5G to produce 1 of.
So I would get rid of the vendor ingredient for mulch and make the processing back to 6c because this is a base recipe that all Farming up to Grand Master is gonna need and needing 600-600-60000 things to make something at GM level? well i would rather at L1 be spending 37s50c and waiting 2.5 Days for a batch of 250 novice level farming (because farming is cheep its time that takes the longest in farming) then 5g and 2 hours to do the same thing.
Phase 3 has been kinda weird for artisans hasn't it? but ya know I think they are kinda going in the right direction, now make no mistake this post will have its mandated complaining about unfished things but as someone who because of Steven's words decided during the Kickstarter that I will ONLY focus on Cooking/Farming despite generally the things that no one cares about in MMORPGs I feel it is my duty to share more feelings as the Alpha continues.
First we need to say something, Thank you for continuing to not have things in the vendor items, as I believe this destroys the player driven artisan economy. Let me explain. I have been playing since Apoc, now in P1 we had vendor items, alot of them, all the way up to Journeyman these things costed a few copper to a few silver. Now this was maybe? to help with progression, some are not lucky in drops and it's just easer to go buy a thing from a vendor that will be at your level. In theory this was to help people get common gear as they leveled as Journeyman artisanship was a pipe dream and you could just grind Carphan for about an 4 hour session and have a team filled with green drops...but ya know what this did for the individual artisan? made their crafts useless. as no one cared about that Bow that costed 200 wood, 120 copper and a few slate when you could just have something better by grinding a mob for an hour, because the HOURS it would take to gather, process, craft that 1 weapon wasn't worth it because you would end up spending a gold or 2 to make it.
But what does this have to do with Cooking?
Well lets look at the cook house. back in P1 the Blackberry Compote, Fresh Salad, and Fruit salad (which i still thing should be removed but let me cook on this) sold for a few coppers, i think at most they were about 55c (I should have had better notes) but now they are selling for 1s60c this is....while not ideal as it sets a maximum price a cook can charge it takes (on average with a 10% tax at the home node so as close to the cheapest I can make by making 250 (quantity is actually cheaper per craft) and taking in using oak/larch for fuel which drives the cost down (accounting for selling things to vendors as a base cost)) it takes about 50-60c to craft 1 of these items (remember this is the dirt cheapest I've been able to do) so the vendor sells them for a little over 3x what it costs to craft. So if a vendor is selling it for at cost/cheaper to craft...well why take the time to gather/craft? just buy the item but with the vendor selling it for less then what it costs a crafter this gives the Crafters a way to craft and sell it cheaper then the vendor but still sets a maximum price for what people will pay
This explains why having any vendor item that can also be a crafted item hurts the economy, why take the time to gather/process/craft something (which could take HOURS alone or a very large guild.....seconds) when you can just go buy it for cheaper? answer you don't you buy it and move on. which means having vendors sell Journeyman level items makes crafting Novice and Apprentice items....useless....or as we said in big guilds "If it's not Epic/Lego no one wants it"
So what has this have to do with Farming.
First and I will say this whole heartedly THANK YOU FOR GIVING US A NON-POOP RECIPIE FOR FARMING!!
with that being said.....now i kind of want it back....Let me explain
In P1-2 farming...ALL FARMING at the NOVICE level required poop, water, seed. so poop, and 2 vendor items which while poop was less dropped (get it) then it seems to be in P3 (thank you) it made all farming close to the same price, between 30-50c per craft. So lets directly compare 2 thing that I know changed. Flax and Cotton. In P2 both of these required a vendor seed, water and gathered poop. Both when crafted costed about 35-40c but now this phase? Flax is the same...but Cotton now is 1.6ish Silver.... that's a x4 increase to make something that is NOVICE level! now i know you can make mulch
****Edited 9/25***
What followed was a 4 paragraph rant about in Icarus farming required Dirt+Wood to make a plot then a seed and water and time to grow a crop and how much I enjoyed farming and wished fish could be used in place of poop but I logged in today and found that all novice farming required mulch which can be made from woodchips + so many other base novice things.
How did I feel seeing this? well currently I am crying and this is playing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUZEtVbJT5cand now i have to update my spreadsheet
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1jkj1l-mlM&t=3s********End of Edit*******
Now speaking of time...this is what Farming should do as a balance, instead of in game Money its Time that take Farming the longest...lets use Cotton, you have 1 Cotton as 15 minutes....ok but lets do a stack of 250 (other then needing +40G meaning Cotton costs more to make then Cows (Apprentice Farming) and Sheep (Journeyman Farming) COMBINED)(at P2 Prices) would take close to 2.5 DAYS to finish......and....I'm kind of ok with that. But why not just make a stack of 250 farming things 24 hours, just all farming things, make it still cheep (about 60s for a stack of 250 Flax) but it takes 24 hours...so farming is cheep to do but LONG on the time. so while it may be 6 copper per any novice farming to make stuff, its gonna take 3 minutes or something to make 1 thing, Farming should be cheap to do but long on the time.
This brings me to my next point, it was cheaper in the last phase to do stuff, you seem to be limiting the Journeyman levels but making it more expensive to raise your Novice/Apprentice levels, these should be cheep, the Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster levels should be where you need money or just keep the Novice cheep, as in not everyone is gonna be an Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, Grandmaster in things but everyone is gonna be a novice so why are you gatekeeping with raising prices? it already was expensive at Apprentice/Journeyman levels why make Novice alot more expensive to do? you are just making the higher levels even more obtainable. Yes I know you can change it, I know you can set things back, but if things are already hard to craft in the first 2 phases why make it even harder in this phase?
So since by the Grace of the 7 you made Mulch the basic need for all farming, I would drop the price back to old levels. Looking at all the old Novice mulch it costs about 15c each but now each mulch is close to 2 silver each....think this is a novice recipe a friend showed me a Bow, it took 2 braidwood, a few prepared yardage ..so like 20 flowers i think it was and over 600 Ash to produce. this was a Journeyman bow i think...but i go back to my cooking at Journeyman and if you change some things you've more then well.....its just not worth it to cook something that will cost you 5G to produce 1 of.
So I would get rid of the vendor ingredient for mulch and make the processing back to 6c because this is a base recipe that all Farming up to Grand Master is gonna need and needing 600-600-60000 things to make something at GM level? well i would rather at L1 be spending 37s50c and waiting 2.5 Days for a batch of 250 novice level farming (because farming is cheep its time that takes the longest in farming) then 5g and 2 hours to do the same thing.
0
Comments
I will say increasing the time to craft may not play out how you want. You'll see a lot of alt crafters to push stuff faster. I guess that's okay, but it does kind of create a pay to win systems, kind of.
Novice crafting is too expensive, but what's partly responsible is you can do all artisan skills at novice. I think limiting those will actually solve some of the cost issues.
The vendor shouldn't sell foods, aside from rations. Now you wouldn't be competing with vendors, just other crafters. It'd bring it inline with the other crafts.
The cost of Novice general materials (from vendors), on top of costs to use the workstation is a double tax and a heavy handed time and gold sync, that isn't needed at Novice level.
Personally I'd put up with the costs if I didn't have run 8 minutes between the farming station and the cooking station.. To much dead time for to be anywhere close to fun for me.
Farming, fishing, hunting, all need work. The UI needs work. ALL processing and crafting is a UI activity, which by itself is fine, but you have to frontload that UI activity with gathering, which isn't the most fun activity either, couple that with running around all over it's just not fun.
I think I'm disappointed at the current state probably because a misconception I had about the view Steven had for crafting or 'life skills' . I thought they'd get a lot of attention, and have some depth. And the complexity of the crafting is good, but actually doing any of the activities is boring. They are a hollow. So much more could be done with the gathering, even mining. Add some skill into it to get better or faster results, keep the auto mining but reduce the time/results. Have fishing as an afk activity is just a huge missed opportunity.. compare this to AA. The hunting is just dumb, and breaks leather working.. I understand everything is a placeholder but why are they tuning placeholders? Should they be working on the actual systems first? I don't know.. maybe these 'placeholders' are actually how it's going to be. Or maybe they are going to tune, refactor, tune, refactor, tune, ect. If that's the method then they endless hamster wheel activities make more sense, because thats what they're doing in the studio lol. Hard to say, but from outside looking it, this just makes no sense. I can say if these life skills are NOT placeholders, then I have no interest in playing.
Regardless of how you feel about it (and by that I mean I'm absolutely not telling you to change your mind nor devaluing your feelings, I share most of them), this stuff is hard.
There are definitely live games with just as bad or worse implementations, because it's so hard to understand 'what to do instead' or 'precisely which thing to fix'.
So let's just be thankful for now, for both 'the fact that Intrepid has a lot of time to iterate and fiddle with it (on PTR I guess) and to people like the OP who hang around enough to try to explain their perspectives on it.
As long as the actual will to make it great is there, alongside the community to tell them when it isn't, we should get something, even if it can't please all of us. And I definitely bet that 'something' wouldn't make you 'not want to play', at least not in the long term.
If too many people get too comfortable with the whole 'you will need thousands of X to do Y' and start discussing 'how to make that less painful', idk what to even do from there.
Very true. My reply turned into a rant. If it was easy to make an mmo than we'd have several to choose from today. I guess we do have a few, but they are all copy/paste of other games. Intrepid is trying to do something different, which makes the hard job even harder. So I'm not trying to change their direction by any means just saying what it looks like from my perspective. But it still seems like they are putting the cart before the horse.
So we have this massive leveling divide, between character level and craft level. you rocket passed 1-10 so quick, none of the early crafts matter really. This is the zerg group leveling meta. I'm not saying make partying leveling speed the same as solo/duo, but slow it all down (or speed up crafting... depends on the type of game they want to have, L2 or WoW..). Make an optimal party size, lets say 5. Make the party size that gives the best exp, level gaps, dimensioning returns ect. First tune the leveling speed. Figure out how many hours it'll take for a player to reach 1-10, 11-20, and so on. Then tune the craft level speed to that. Right now it doesn't seem like they have that figured out, or setup. And it's alpha, so maybe they can't. But there seems to be so much focus on Nodes/Wars ect and the foundation of the game, (the character), is hardly fleshed out.
Guess it's still a rant, but I think their process is flawed and it's going to turn in a game that has little value for the actual character. The only value a character has out side a number in a zerg is going to be if it GMs an artisan. You'll be able to level a new character up to 50 in a week or less, and you'll just be a number in a zerg. You'll grind through boring UI activities to level up a Node, for what? I'm sorry I don't see the appeal to a game with a zerg meta, much less of it's built on a tedious and boring mandatory artisan/crafting UI activity. On it's current path it looks like there will be an Ashes Reborn... I just don't see an MMO lasting with so little focus on the player's character. Nodes value more than your Guild the Guild valued more than your Character. It should all be the other way around, but what is it you spend the most time working on? It's the Node if you care about getting up, then it's your Guild, and you don't even have to think about your character because you maxed all slots by now if you've been playing. Shits backwards...
@KrystalKitten
This kind of hones in the imbalance we see between the character leveling speed vs the crafting leveling speed. If you have 5 characters per account, you only need 3 accounts to GM all artisans (you need 12 characters maybe 9? I can't remember...). Yes it'll take some time do that, but some people will, many will max all slot on their accounts. Dual accounts would be the way to go, I'd likely do dual accounts if I play.
Need thousands of something for GM isn't going to be fun, it's going to be inventory management game. And currently the inventory system isn't setup for it. Even if it was if I need thousands of something to make one item at the GM level, it's going to suck, I'm alright with needing some Novice crafts to make a GM items. But having to craft from Novice -> App -> JM -> M -> GM. If i have to go through all those steps then that's going to suck, even if the UI was great, it's tedious UI clicking X5. A GM item should require items from all levels not have to iterate through all level to get the final outcome. Otherwise we'll be stuck needing tens of thousands of materials for a single GM item. I just don't see how that makes sense.
@lazzphoenx
This is my point on the crafting system. If they want people to test it lets get it past these placeholder status and into some forum of how it's going to actually look and work. Ease the burden on inventory and travel so more people are willing to test it. They've made it so damn tedious to even test these systems too. Nah, PTR only for me from now on, or I'm just going to grow to hate the game before I even get to play it...
Well going by cooking it already does and they broke that as well, honestly P1 was the most economical way to crafting I have found. The thing is saying "it's only a place holder" is kind of the point, this is why I posting the title, right now they only focus on people who level grind to 25 in 3 days and have a full set of uncommon dropped Carphen gear with in the week. I'm not that, I'm very casual player and I want to GM Cooking/Farming 2 skills that many MMOs really don't give 2 shits about. but this game for longevity will not work if you balance the casual player who doesn't PVP and only really does crafting on one character with an 4-8 hour a week playtime with the hardcore 30hours a day on multiple computers/accounts players, you can not balance it. Honestly we shouldn't even be "balancing" any economy in this phase cause not all the systems are in place, so you CANT balance anything. I logged in today to find Mulch the one thing you need in order to do any farming CAN NOT BE MADE ANYMORE (I just bug reported it) so now, Farming, a crafting system in the game can not be done anymore at all, and that was how I made money....so now should they roll back because my primary source of Income now can not be done? how is this fair to people who only can play a few hours and only have limited things they want/can do? it's not because they don't care. if Polar cheats they roll back but if they remove an ability all together to make a crafting system (that we are supposed to be testing) while at the same time "test the living economy" well...you can't "well it's an alpha" is not an excuse when you bring in "economy balancing" because nothing is balanced because as you said things still have placeholders...which is my whole point. Testing should be that, TESTING. Now I can't do the one thing I wanted to do until they fix it...guess Ill go back to Icarus. I was making mulch 24 hours ago with the same ingredients but now...nope. Something they changed in the last 24 hours has now completely halted my ability to farm.
We only have seen up to Journeyman and like I said it takes hundreds of novice, a few apprentice and very few journeyman ingredients, Honestly I kind of enjoy that, the rarer it is the less you need to make something of higher level, we haven't seen Master or Grandmaster stuff and those resources aren't even in game. People are still making the huge number items, hell I just got all the resources to make a Journeyman Bow that takes like 700ish resources...my casual ass did it so it's not that bad of a thing if they are novice materials, if they were Journeyman well i would be screwed but there at least is a way and honestly I found it fun to do.
MMOs have people with multiple accounts, multiple computers grinding for resources and making stuff, in an attempt to RMT things, but Ashes bans those people....theoretically....and this is an Alpha so to try an RMT an Alpha is stupid in my opinion cause it's just gonna get wiped anyway.
All good points. It is a test. I don't complain about the alpha state. My biggest complaint is
So if we're just testing to see if it "works" not "balanced", then why make the values so high, it's a disregard for our time, it's a test, make it fast and easy, maybe as fast and as easy as leveling your character??
Then the tediousness of the early level crafting because travel. Some what inventory fatigue too. The costs are little bothersome but manageable. I would like to see the general materials go away and turn into crafted materials. I don't see a reason to have a vendor selling materials, just sell basic recipes I say.
Last thing I'm advocating for is testing the economy. I'd like to see the artisan skills built out more. They aren't interactive, they are very shallow or robotic I guess. I advocate for doing this, then balancing the char leveling speed with the artisan leveling speeds. Screw the overall economy until the things that actually make up the economy are in place.
Needing 700 materials for one craft is a bit much, at least at face value. At GM could we expect this to double or more? who knows. Making one two JM items having to get a few thousand materials ain't bad, but think in the since of leveling the skill, it's going to be a lot. Which might be okay. But how would we really know until trading posts, stalls, stores are in their close to final form? That could drastically change the values needed, so why the treadmill during testing?
I guess I was hoping for P3 to be a better state for crafters. I tend to do fishing, hunting, cooking skills in games as well. I'd test more if the if bag space and travel time and storage weren't so annoying. But hell at least storage works and isn't dropping my mats into the void anymore. You quit because mulch was a hard stop for you. I stopped because my reasons above.
Bridging the gap between causals and hardcore though, that's a hard one. I don't even know if it can be done. Hardcore in other games was just the hard raids. Now it's going to be who grinds their life away clicking buttons and material nodes. I could try to think of some ways, but there's too much missing, and the differences from what I seen in the Wiki vs what I've seen in the game makes it hard to guess how something is going to play out. I agree without causals this games is doomed, and maybe in that death it'll be Reborn lol.
Ashes going to be a target for RMT and bots more so than any other MMO I could think of. They'll have their work cut out for them banning them, a zero box cost is going to make that so hard too. I think there should be a box cost and no time cards, to give intripid more cash (all box cost goes to games security team) and more overhead to the cheaters.
Mulch
Love the idea but it needs to be very cheep to make since all farming recipes require it. Considering my Husband is a farmer he had input.
No vendor ingredients or make the "Root rot" ingredient cheaper,
Any plant, tree, tree byproduct (sawdust, woodchips, lumber, daffodils, snowdrops, flax ect ect) mineral or product (Granite, sandstone, sand) (precious minerals like copper, zinc ect excluded) (anything found in all the different types of soil/mulch)
and
Poop or woodchips or fish or filets (this is used in real life) (i didn't know this about the fish till he told me)
Total cost for everything including crafting costs should be less then 10c
Basically anything used in real world mulch, it makes sense that this should be the cheapest and easiest recipe because its used for everything else which at Journeyman really scales so I'm guessing Master and Grand Master also scales, but I'm talking base novice mulch which will be used for every farming recipe from Novice to Grand Master
Farming products
Vendor seeds and water (seed price can vary on material)
Rarity depends on mulch used.
More fertilizers too like using fish, you could also use bonemeal, blood, ect. But they'd have to draw the line somewhere. I think it's okay to have poop for X recipe then fish for Y recipe then mulch for Z recipe.
I don't think vendors should sell water. Maybe in the desert..? Selling seeds make sense since we have to seperate the gathering materials like flax and flowers from garden materials like cotton... wait that does make sense lol. but lettuce and stuff does. Why are there cotton seeds and not flax seeds?
All good ideas. PTR has testing today for processing, might be able to work out your bug there today, and get it reported. PTR is a little ahead of Prod too so you're bug might already be fixed.
I like your idea to use poop or fish for different things, im talking the BASE level Mulch...Like Icarus you have dirt, you can gather that dirt, but you can then use dead plants to refine the dirt into fertilizer then use a chemistry bench to make it quality or quantity fertilizer maybe something like this but for Novice Base, just need seed and water from a vendor mulch for all Novice level crafting (maybe higher level) no vendor item just need the stuff and mix it at a bench, maybe use the poop for "Quality Mulch" or fish for "Enhanced Mulch" this could take different processes and ranks or something