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Ashes is going to get bombed on Steam reviews (I hope it's not)

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Comments

  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    To be clear the game does not need everything on the list just some.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    I guess we're just lying now, huh.

    Yes because the only explanation is a person must be lying. No one can ever forget things or be mistaken.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    https://ashesofcreation.wiki/Arenas

    Arenas are instanced PvP scenarios and are not part of open world PvP.[2][3][4]

    The reason I put Arena and instanced PvP separate is because they are separate. By instanced PvP I mean WoW battlegrounds and I keep forgetting that this game has Arenas since it's so insanely dumb due to how the balancing works. Which will make the Arenas pointless.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Gear enhancement rewards.[24]

    One could argue that this is not a direct gear progression, but once you hit a cap on some gear build - this is the only way to progress higher and pvp will be one of the ways you can do that.

    And they would be right because gear enhancement is not gear progression. Gear progression is getting new pieces of gear not enhancing gear. You could have either gear progression or character progression through PvP.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    Do you mean "gain xp through pvp" here or something else? Cause imo getting better gear IS a part of character progression, because it progresses my character, but if you do mean purely XP rewards then, yes, there's no such thing.

    Character progression would be something like a talent tree, which allowed you to customize your character in a way which you like. I would say in a PvP focused game a talent tree that augments your character the way you want would be the better way to go because it divorces any PvP stats from gear and would allow you to gear the way you want.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    What exactly do you see as a class vs a sub-class here? Is it someone who fits a different role? Someone who has purely different abilities? Something else?

    We still have 0 clue about all the potential augments and we have all the promises in the world from Steven, but those don't mean shit, as we've learned, so it's difficult to say either way.

    The closest thing we know in regard to abilities is that the core abilities will remain the same of your archetype, so if you define a class purely by its skillset then, yes, the game will only have 8 "classes".

    Though at that point I'd be curious to know what game doesn't have classes where one does a "green dot", while another does a "red dot", especially in games with more classes than, say, 10.

    Class vs Sub-class is pretty strait forward, think of the difference between a Rogue and a Fighter, they are similar but go about things very differently. In theory you could do 25 separate distinct and unique classes which had very little overlap and a unique playstyle. Past that your going to be in dire straits of trying to make things feel unique. That is assuming you have a full plate of abilities, not being limited to 20 abilities.

    EverQuest is a good example of this. The Wizard, Enchanter, Necromancer, and Magician are all cloth wearing intelligence based caster classes. But they all play very differently. Even though the description sounds like they are all basically the same on paper.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 22
    Ludullu wrote: »
    It's so fucking ironic that literally the ONLY real example of augments we've gotten so far goes directly against your claim here. The god damn "it's a tp instead of a dash now, d-d-dduuuuhhh" already changes the ability's value and application. Especially if TPs are target-lock-breaking and, iirc, they're also projectile-breaking as well.

    Even that puny example already changes your approach to the ability, cause now it's not just an initiation tool, but a dodge tool, an escape tool and potentially even a confusion tool, cause quite often people lose themselves a bit if they overrely on targeting and then lose it for a second.

    Except its your gap closer which means your going to use it when you need to close a gap, unless you think adding half a second wait time so you can dodge an ability, which you will almost never do because being on top of the target will be more important then trying to dodge one ability.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    And your list doesn't include targeting changes, combo changes (i.e. "this ability now triggers off of basic attacks of other players rather than yours'), effect changes (dmg to heal or buff or dot or anything else), hell if Steven actually led his devs work I bet we could even get resource changes on abilities which would change your entire gameplay.

    What do you mean by Targeting changes and combo changes. As for DoTs if your character is capable of kiting then there will be no change since you will probably already be kiting, and if your character cant kite then you will stand there and fight ultimately not changing the way you fight.

    Changing a damage to a Heal will have the same affect as above, your overarching playstyle will not change, if the Mage suddenly got a heal would people stand there and face tank things or would they kite things like they do now and use the heal if they need it? If the Warrior got a dedicated heal would they suddenly start kiting things or would they stick with their rotation they have and use the heal if needed?

    Adding a resource would probably be the best way to create an actual unique class type experience.
    Ludullu wrote: »
    I'm not saying any of that will actually happen, cause it sure as fuck is obvious that the game's been simplifying rather than becoming more complex, but right now it's neither nor. We simply don't know what it could be, but the potential is waaaaay higher than what you claim it is.

    No it isn't, you just want it to be "waaaaay higher" so your saying anything you can to maintain the view that you hold of this game.
  • lamina5432lamina5432 Member, Alpha Two
    On the PvP front since XP debt seems to be included in actual PvP event's I wonder if during PvP events like sieges and wars you could also work off the debt too. Really shouldn't be included in these events or at least turned way down, but having a way to work it off if you are skilled enough and don't die often seems like a good counter balance.

    As for the classes discussion I'm not a dev and probably underestimate the process to impliment and balance things. I think it is underestimating game designer's that 64 distinct classes can't be made. I do hope Intrepid does right by it but we are at a wait and see for a lot of things right now.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    edited November 22
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    On the PvP front since XP debt seems to be included in actual PvP event's I wonder if during PvP events like sieges and wars you could also work off the debt too. Really shouldn't be included in these events or at least turned way down, but having a way to work it off if you are skilled enough and don't die often seems like a good counter balance.

    As for the classes discussion I'm not a dev and probably underestimate the process to implement and balance things. I think it is underestimating game designer's that 64 distinct classes can't be made. I do hope Intrepid does right by it but we are at a wait and see for a lot of things right now.

    As far as I know XP debt is turned off during PvP events.

    It's a conceptual limit not a programming limit. I have no doubt that with sufficient time the team could make 64 distinct classes. The problem occurs when you have things like every class can wear all armor, every class can use every weapon, every class can...When you allow every class to do things it removes uniqueness from the class. If they implemented restrictions on classes like armor weapons and things of that sort you could have 64 classes maybe. Again a conceptual limit.
  • RonDog98RonDog98 Member, Alpha Two
    Okeydoke wrote: »
    Vhaeyne wrote: »
    Ignoring PvX, the concept of a "Social" MMORPG these days is niche within niche on its own.

    It will not preform super well in any market.

    I have been saying for years the best they can hope for is Eve online levels of success.
    80-100 concurrent players, single shard.

    Depends on what the definition of "super well" is. But don't we already know there's a decent market for a game like this? Just based on 180,000+ Ashes pre launch sales so far, plus 2 million or something website registers. Conventional wisdom as well being that pre launch interest is just a fraction of what it would be at launch.

    Where I begin to doubt the design of the game is not so much in the core design, but the nuances of certain design elements. For instance, Steven's apparent insistence on a very top down, mega guildy, elites/hardcore tower over everything dynamic. In my view, you can make Ashes, maintaining it's core design, with or without that dynamic. And it'd be a hell of a lot better without it, or at least kept in check better than it is now. It'd be more accessible, more fun, more fair. More lively.

    I can't think of a single hardcore person that's going to be like aww bruh, the game doesn't let me instantly power past the average players into the stratosphere, I quit. Because they're going to be ahead either way. But I can think of a lot of average players that will see a system where they're just fodder and quit. Steven needs to read the room man. The average person has been getting shit on in real life for the past five years. Everything's harder, more expensive, you have to work more just to live the same quality of life people had 5 years ago and 30 years ago. And they have less free time.

    People don't want to log into a game just to feel similar-ish ways. I'm probably sounding kinda abstract because I don't want to get into specifics, that'd be a long post. But I know what I mean, haha.

    Anyway, yeah I dunno about that trailer. Very confusing.

    Could not agree more. I personally think Ashes could be very casually friendly even with the pillars this game wants to have, as long as Steven is willing to compromise on a few key design decisions.
  • daveywaveydaveywavey Member, Alpha Two
    Ludullu wrote: »
    I'm not saying any of that will actually happen, cause it sure as fuck is obvious that the game's been simplifying rather than becoming more complex, but right now it's neither nor. We simply don't know what it could be, but the potential is waaaaay higher than what you claim it is.

    No it isn't, you just want it to be "waaaaay higher" so your saying anything you can to maintain the view that you hold of this game.

    I mean, there are a lot of different things they could add that are based only on the L1-25 skills we've seen so far. Tank Secondaries could have increased Threat, Damage mitigation, Trips/Knockbacks, Health Regen, etc. Bard Secondaries could have Melodies, Mana sustain, Healing, CC, etc. Ranger Secondaries could add additional ranged attacks, Roots/Snares, Armaments, Movement benefits, Camoflage, etc.

    There's a lot that can be done here.
    This link may help you: https://ashesofcreation.wiki/


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  • NoaaniNoaani Member, Intrepid Pack, Alpha Two
    lamina5432 wrote: »
    Yes, but they could actually do 64 sub classes. It is literally impossible to do 64 classes especially when the only things they are going to be changing are passive changes like damage damage type and animations.
    .

    As far as I know the augments are going to be much more varied that this. Some will be what you are talking about but some should be big differences. Also talk about getting bombed if the augments fail to deliver some big review bombing will be incoming. Not that it has to be a first try thing that's why we are in alpha.

    They are not. Think about all the ways you can actually change an ability

    Single Target or AoE

    Ranged or Melee

    Damage Type

    That's it that all of them. There are only so many ways you can modify a skill. At least in a meaningful play altering way. Which is the difference between a Class and a sub class.

    On top of that not all of the abilities are changing IIRC about 10 of the abilities are supposed to change. Which means most of your kit will remain unchanged.

    I'm not exactly wanting to defend Ashes, Intrepid or Steven right now, but I will step in when factually incorrect comments are made.

    The above is factually incorrect.

    In terms of "think about ways they can change an ability" in relation to augments, Stevens own comment on this is thus; Augments can affect a multitude of things and can (in some cases) create entirely new skills.

    Now, if you want to make the argument that they aren't going to follow through with this, then have at it. Just be sure and make it clear that your argument is that they will not do what they have said they have done, not that they can't do what another poster has correctly said Intrepid have stated the plan to be.

    However, the real issue with augments as they stand right now is that Intrepid have given us a while load of conflicting information. They have said that all skills will have augments, they have said that all active skills will have augments, and they have said that a select subset of active skills will have augments. They have said skills can only have one augment, but they have also talked about an entire catagory of augments that are designed to be used as secondary augments to skills. They have said they are designing augments to be able to be used on many skills, expect they are also designing them for specific skills.

    Essentially, none of us have any idea at all what will happen with augments. Anyone that says they know is a liar.

    What we do know though, is what is possible, and @lamina5432 was correct in their post in that regard - we have indeed been told augments will be highly varied.

    We are also able to talk about what we think will happen with augments, in an opinion based discussion. With that in mind, Ludullu is correct when he says that the game has been becoming more and more simplified lately, so it is reasonable to assume the same will happen with augments, even if we have been told differently.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    edited 10:04PM
    daveywavey wrote: »
    I mean, there are a lot of different things they could add that are based only on the L1-25 skills we've seen so far. Tank Secondaries could have increased Threat, Damage mitigation, Trips/Knockbacks, Health Regen, etc. Bard Secondaries could have Melodies, Mana sustain, Healing, CC, etc. Ranger Secondaries could add additional ranged attacks, Roots/Snares, Armaments, Movement benefits, Camoflage, etc.

    There's a lot that can be done here.

    How would any of those things change the core gameplay of how another class plays the game?

    Also, increased threat would be a waste of time since Tanks are the only class that have the mitigation tools to be a tank.

    I think I'm seeing the problem.

    @Ludullu @daveywavey and @Noaani You guys are assuming that they are going to code whole new abilities into the game. Where as I think they are going to simply reskin abilities to give them a different "feel".

    Now I will assume that you guys are correct. In which case the game would have close to 8960 unique abilities, with completely separate code. In which case they could have 64 classes at launch each with 140 abilities that are unique. which is fucking more then enough, on top of that I get to pick the class I want at the start of the game rather then leveling for 3 weeks in a class I may not be all that interested in Just so I can play the class I actually want to play.

    https:/ashesofcreation.wiki/Augments:/

    Take me for example a Shaman and a Cleric are two very different classes. But for me to play a Shaman I need to Level a Cleric 25 levels, and then I can START to change my abilities so that I actually play the class I want to play.

    As a point of reference WoW had about 400 abilities on launch.

    Sorry if i think that makes zero sense on an eyewatering amount of levels.
  • AzheraeAzherae Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
    Wow I didn't even notice we got to the Augment possibilities hit on the bingo card.

    What's wrong with having over 9000 different abilities in an MMORPG? Not really sure how it's strange?

    Also they can (and probably should) use Augments to create tradeoffs between two forms of a skill that should both be part of the same class fantasy but shouldn't be allowed on the same character at the same time.
    One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
  • AirborneBerserkerAirborneBerserker Member, Alpha Two
    Azherae wrote: »
    Wow I didn't even notice we got to the Augment possibilities hit on the bingo card.

    What's wrong with having over 9000 different abilities in an MMORPG? Not really sure how it's strange?

    Also they can (and probably should) use Augments to create tradeoffs between two forms of a skill that should both be part of the same class fantasy but shouldn't be allowed on the same character at the same time.

    There is nothing wrong with having that many abilities.

    There is something wrong with having those abilities so spread out that rather then having unique classes you have sub classes that kind of feel like shit.
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