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Alpha Two Phase III testing has begun! During this phase, our realms will be open every day, and we'll only have downtime for updates and maintenance. We'll keep everyone up-to-date about downtimes in Discord.
If you have Alpha Two, you can download the game launcher here, and we encourage you to join us on our Official Discord Server for the most up to date testing news.
Summoner's Automation Options (and some random expectation stuff)
Azherae
Member, Alpha One, Alpha Two, Early Alpha Two
Hearing that Summoners may be able to hit a button to automate their Summon is concerning. Not because of a concern about easy or low-engagement gameplay options in itself, but because of wondering something about the design goal of the Archetype.
Anyone short on time can just skip the entire rest of this 'explanatory rant' and focus on just this next question if they want, for discussion purposes:
"What is it that you think of or want when you hear that we may be able to activate Automation for Summons, in terms of gameplay?
Everything from here on is just context. Lots and lots of context. Maybe check it out if you 'can't figure out why someone would care'.
FF11 Summons need to Skillchain, debuff at specific times, and occasionally CC. The game is slow and mostly 'automatic' anyway, with a Summoner's focus in complex battles being about mana management and team coordination since Summoning is literally all they do within their Primary Archetype/Main Job.
On the 'other end', Throne and Liberty Summon-like Orb gameplay is about synchronizing with the team or looking for attack windows on the target if it is mobile, so another side of the same concept.
While they both can be played as if they are 'just automatic' with certain specs and can easily be seen that way by some, it's moreso that there are moments where the player is 'letting the summon do something while thinking about something else' and those moments normally come right after that player has made the critical, active Decision that is the hallmark of the gameplay.
Maybe I misunderstood the LiveStream or am just overly negative right now but it definitely sounded like the autoplay 'toggle' for Summoners in AoC would not be that... it would either be 'on' or 'off', presumably to give the Summoner player time to 'use all their non-summoner abilities'?
What my group's Summoner and I are having trouble 'visualizing' given our biases and past/current experiences, is how this is supposed to result in effective gameplay while still being in any way compelling gameplay (it could totally just be there so that Secondary Archetype Summons have a behaviour tree that makes sense).
I'll try to pinpoint where it 'breaks down'.
In FF11:
It's simple enough, almost everything about playing Summoner is encapsulated in 'knowing the correct summon to call for the moment' and 'managing mana cost of having the summon active' while contributing using 'Secondary Archetype' (Subjob).
In a game with no relationship between Summons and Elemental properties of weather/day/enemies, there isn't anything specific to 'do', here. It would break down because there 'is no gameplay', or at least none that involves the player actually needing to make any decisions.
In Throne and Liberty:
It's much more complicated and skillshot/planning related, in practice, but this could be reduced by making the Constellation skill just deploy an actual Avatar that follows the target, though even then, not really, because the other 'activator' skills would still need to be targeted by the 'Summoner' (I guess they could go further and change these to center around the 'Avatar' in that case, for comparison sake, but you'd still be doing the mana management since TL Orbs have a mana upkeep cost and presumably any Avatars also would). In this case if the player didn't need to decide 'beforehand' which Augments to focus on or hypothetically for comparison 'which Avatar to use' then there would again be no 'gameplay' beyond the standard 'point pet at target and mostly wait'.
So to cut all that down to a two 'comparisons' now that I've given all that precursor data:
Or maybe:
There was a mention in the LiveStream about how the Mystic's heal might become an AoE 'under certain conditions'. Not too concerned about what those are even if they're automatic.. Light Spirit just does AoE heals if it 'detects' the Party has taken AoE damage + a few other things + it isn't having a bad day (Darksday, but at that point you definitely summoned Levi or Garuda).
To be similarly clear, this isn't a matter of 'not wanting to need to do other things'. In FF11 the Summoner can melee, participate in Skillchains, and depending on Subjob, contribute to all sorts of things.
It's not about 'objecting to the idea of setting up a payoff skill/synergy'. My group's Summoner would love to have an 'Ifrit' or 'Shiva' style gameplay loop in TL where an Avatar or Constellation got a more targeted or specific bonus effect for synergizing with a teammate or from use of skills from another Weapon, building up statuses like Burn, Ignite or Frost on enemies near the Avatar/Sphere Constellation even if this could be set to trigger automatically (though she would obviously prefer to time it herself, this is trivial, it would almost certainly just be pressing the Summon Constellation ability again).
It's precisely about 'not understanding what aspect of the actual Summoning the Designers perceive as the gameplay part when it comes to automation'. We've got 'pointing Summon at target which it autoattacks/autoheals', 'being able to position the summon' (fairly trivial and probably not even active in Auto mode in the standard way), and maybe 'setting up the fulfillment of a condition which might be a reasonable way to Auto-trigger a response from even an Automated summon'.
None of these things feel as if they are themselves 'engaging Gameplay' (again, due to Vessels not being related to Elements nor Skill-spec/positioning things, neither of which are a thing being 'requested', they're just obviously not in Ashes), which would give the feeling that all the 'Gameplay' of Summoner (in any situation where the Summon might as well be in Auto mode) is in the abilities they have that aren't actually the Summoning ones, as of what we've been shown (let's 'ignore' things like mana transfer or this post will be even more interminable).
Anything else confusing about 'why we care about this' is related to the existence of the TP Gauge in FF11 (so basically, most of what counts as Gameplay for Beastmaster or Puppetmaster).
Not everything has to be super complex or 'for people chasing gameplay mastery', but to give any feedback on 'how well this is working', knowing the intent is important, because there's a vast gap between 'You should consider this to be working successfully even if it makes this feel like an Autofollow-Autobattler to you and you would prefer to always turn it off' and 'You should complain if you think the Summon is too powerful/proactive in Auto mode and you don't experience skill expression' (whether this is because there aren't enough abilities yet, or because it uses whatever it has with such effective AI implementation that doing it manually is just suboptimal).
Anyone short on time can just skip the entire rest of this 'explanatory rant' and focus on just this next question if they want, for discussion purposes:
"What is it that you think of or want when you hear that we may be able to activate Automation for Summons, in terms of gameplay?
Everything from here on is just context. Lots and lots of context. Maybe check it out if you 'can't figure out why someone would care'.
FF11 Summons need to Skillchain, debuff at specific times, and occasionally CC. The game is slow and mostly 'automatic' anyway, with a Summoner's focus in complex battles being about mana management and team coordination since Summoning is literally all they do within their Primary Archetype/Main Job.
On the 'other end', Throne and Liberty Summon-like Orb gameplay is about synchronizing with the team or looking for attack windows on the target if it is mobile, so another side of the same concept.
While they both can be played as if they are 'just automatic' with certain specs and can easily be seen that way by some, it's moreso that there are moments where the player is 'letting the summon do something while thinking about something else' and those moments normally come right after that player has made the critical, active Decision that is the hallmark of the gameplay.
Maybe I misunderstood the LiveStream or am just overly negative right now but it definitely sounded like the autoplay 'toggle' for Summoners in AoC would not be that... it would either be 'on' or 'off', presumably to give the Summoner player time to 'use all their non-summoner abilities'?
What my group's Summoner and I are having trouble 'visualizing' given our biases and past/current experiences, is how this is supposed to result in effective gameplay while still being in any way compelling gameplay (it could totally just be there so that Secondary Archetype Summons have a behaviour tree that makes sense).
I'll try to pinpoint where it 'breaks down'.
In FF11:
- Summon an Avatar or an Elemental Spirit, this choice is based on day of week, weather, time of day, and enemy target
- If Elemental Spirit, may also be related to when a certain group synergy is expected, and for an Avatar, what buff/attack/heal is needed for similar coordination
- Either deploy forward or pull close to Summoner to use the attack or buff, other actions (or inaction) are automatic
- For the Buff, normally just use it immediately and if necessary, swap to another Summon (or sometimes wait for enemy ability)
- For an attack, be ready to do on reaction or to time whatever Synergy
It's simple enough, almost everything about playing Summoner is encapsulated in 'knowing the correct summon to call for the moment' and 'managing mana cost of having the summon active' while contributing using 'Secondary Archetype' (Subjob).
In a game with no relationship between Summons and Elemental properties of weather/day/enemies, there isn't anything specific to 'do', here. It would break down because there 'is no gameplay', or at least none that involves the player actually needing to make any decisions.
In Throne and Liberty:
- Summon Spheres (up to 3) at chosen locations, a Constellation (summoning all 3 at once around one target, a 'lock on' type skill), and/or a Satellite that follows a party member (or more than one depending on Augment) based on positions of enemies
- If Satellite, assume it is related to group synergy or buffs, if Constellation (for now, treat this as equivalent to a single large summon from Ashes or FF11), assume related to buff/attack/heal type required (almost all powerful versions of these require a Constellation or 3 Spheres placed manually close together which is basically the same thing, so you can still think of this as the equivalent of a single Avatar)
- Perform actions or fulfill some condition to trigger the effects/synergy from the Satellites, or position properly and activate the 'payoff' skill (heal/attack/buff) for Constellations/Avatar.
- For the Satellite, the 'challenge' is deploying it at the time where its effects are most likely to synergize with the required activation condition, same as Buffs.
- For a Heal or Attack, the challenge is being ready to do on reaction or to time whatever Synergy, while making sure things are spaced correctly (for example, deploying a Constellation at the wrong time against a mobile enemy/boss means that either DPS is lost or melees which chase the boss might not receive heals, etc)
It's much more complicated and skillshot/planning related, in practice, but this could be reduced by making the Constellation skill just deploy an actual Avatar that follows the target, though even then, not really, because the other 'activator' skills would still need to be targeted by the 'Summoner' (I guess they could go further and change these to center around the 'Avatar' in that case, for comparison sake, but you'd still be doing the mana management since TL Orbs have a mana upkeep cost and presumably any Avatars also would). In this case if the player didn't need to decide 'beforehand' which Augments to focus on or hypothetically for comparison 'which Avatar to use' then there would again be no 'gameplay' beyond the standard 'point pet at target and mostly wait'.
So to cut all that down to a two 'comparisons' now that I've given all that precursor data:
- Ashes: Set Guardian Vessel to Auto, send it at target, it Taunts and Stomps on a timer, Summoner does things not related to summoning.
- FF11: Send Titan at enemy, must use Blood Pact: Rage or Ward yourself, but more importantly, lots of things about the situation are baked into the encounter/the world state (might have summoned Ifrit for example, to DPS harder for holding hate or for resisting an enemy that uses Fire)
- TL: Send Constellation at enemy while in 'Titan' Skill Spec or summon Spheres near allies, must use Guardian Defensive Barrier manually (and other more complex skills similarly)
Or maybe:
- Ashes: Set Mystic Vessel to Auto, send it at ally, it heals on a timer or on reaction, summoner does things not related to summoning but maybe can still move it around/reassign it?
- FF11: Summon Light Spirit or Carbuncle, for the former, wait for it to heal people, for the latter, use Blood Pact yourself for heals/buffs, again dependent on world state (might have summoned Leviathan or Garuda based on the skillchain or weather for example)
- TL: Summon Satellites if spec/augments are devoted to that type of healing, manually time activation of shield (along with smaller passive healing), for AoE of the other kind, summon Constellation around Allies correctly while in 'Garuda' or 'Leviathan' spec which convert a specific skill into a heal and amp it according to the Constellation (it's similar to Consecrating Wave).
There was a mention in the LiveStream about how the Mystic's heal might become an AoE 'under certain conditions'. Not too concerned about what those are even if they're automatic.. Light Spirit just does AoE heals if it 'detects' the Party has taken AoE damage + a few other things + it isn't having a bad day (Darksday, but at that point you definitely summoned Levi or Garuda).
To be similarly clear, this isn't a matter of 'not wanting to need to do other things'. In FF11 the Summoner can melee, participate in Skillchains, and depending on Subjob, contribute to all sorts of things.
It's not about 'objecting to the idea of setting up a payoff skill/synergy'. My group's Summoner would love to have an 'Ifrit' or 'Shiva' style gameplay loop in TL where an Avatar or Constellation got a more targeted or specific bonus effect for synergizing with a teammate or from use of skills from another Weapon, building up statuses like Burn, Ignite or Frost on enemies near the Avatar/Sphere Constellation even if this could be set to trigger automatically (though she would obviously prefer to time it herself, this is trivial, it would almost certainly just be pressing the Summon Constellation ability again).
It's precisely about 'not understanding what aspect of the actual Summoning the Designers perceive as the gameplay part when it comes to automation'. We've got 'pointing Summon at target which it autoattacks/autoheals', 'being able to position the summon' (fairly trivial and probably not even active in Auto mode in the standard way), and maybe 'setting up the fulfillment of a condition which might be a reasonable way to Auto-trigger a response from even an Automated summon'.
None of these things feel as if they are themselves 'engaging Gameplay' (again, due to Vessels not being related to Elements nor Skill-spec/positioning things, neither of which are a thing being 'requested', they're just obviously not in Ashes), which would give the feeling that all the 'Gameplay' of Summoner (in any situation where the Summon might as well be in Auto mode) is in the abilities they have that aren't actually the Summoning ones, as of what we've been shown (let's 'ignore' things like mana transfer or this post will be even more interminable).
Anything else confusing about 'why we care about this' is related to the existence of the TP Gauge in FF11 (so basically, most of what counts as Gameplay for Beastmaster or Puppetmaster).
Not everything has to be super complex or 'for people chasing gameplay mastery', but to give any feedback on 'how well this is working', knowing the intent is important, because there's a vast gap between 'You should consider this to be working successfully even if it makes this feel like an Autofollow-Autobattler to you and you would prefer to always turn it off' and 'You should complain if you think the Summon is too powerful/proactive in Auto mode and you don't experience skill expression' (whether this is because there aren't enough abilities yet, or because it uses whatever it has with such effective AI implementation that doing it manually is just suboptimal).
One of the most enduring 'fantasies' of the human spirit, is to either always have people willing to help... or to be strong enough to never need any.
2
Comments
If there's automation on one archetype - hell, just put it on everyone! Just fucking put in the WoW "win" button, so that the braindead people can play the game as well. I bet the game would win a few accessibility awards for that.
In other words, the only "automation" there should be is the autoattack, though personally I even hate THAT, because it goes away from the design of "every hit matters, cause there's passives related to them".
If fucking L2 required you to control your summon for best optimal ability usage (angles for aoes and such), w/o a ground-targetable movement ability - I'd expect a modern game to be AT LEAST that lvl of gameplay. But I keep thinking that old designs were truly so revolutionary that they're completely uncopiable in the current age...
I think I linked it in the past, but I'll just do it here as well. It's scuffed as hell, but just for another point of reference to add to the 2 from the OP