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Group size and class "balance"

Since this is still in development maybe you guys will think about this one.

First I hate when 5-7 of my friends are online and we have to make two groups to play cause limited to 4-5 people in a group. Why? other than some balance where everyone is the same no matter their class as they get "balanced" so no one is better at anything than any other class...God I hate that aspect of MMO's someone always cries about some class being OP (care-bears)....so what deal with it! anyway hope you guys make larger grouping options other than 4 players or multi group raids...I want to go run around in the world with 12-25 of my best friends without having many small groups or forming a raid....ever watch a western when they get a pose together, there are like 15-20 guys all going out after some bad dude. We should be able to do that! if its matter of buffs effecting too many people (like wow with paladins used to be able to make a party with 4 and all have different auras up -which was really cool) then have them be area centered on the caster so to get benefit have to be close to him, which makes more people susceptible to an area effect attack, something like that. I really like the sound of this game as I have been waiting a long time for an MMO to sound interesting as most lately have not. And please don't listen so much to the care-bear balance Nerf crowd...Conan is supposed to be stronger than a mage, a thief can do a lot of damage if he sneaks, but if he gets Conan's sword in his gut he dead...deal with it! if its no challenge and every class is just a different skin on the same thing then the game looses a lot of appeal.
Any way just how I feel about it, maybe some others will agree with this idea?
Thanks

Comments

  • for the grouping issue i totally agree with that, i would love to see some 6-man,12-man,24-man(or women) dungeons and open world grouping. (i would love to see a dungeon that required 50 people to complete over a week or so, but i think that would be a nightmare to make). as for the buff's if you have diminishing returns on the buff i.e first 6 in group get 100% of the buff, next 6 get 75% etc etc.

    for the class balancing imo its hard to get right, how squishy is too squishy etc. Thats one of the reasons alphas/betas are useful for the dev's to get feedback and suggestions from the players regarding these issues.
  • Once again I refer back to City of Heroes for excellent game-play. Teams of up to 8 were possible for general dungeons and game-foolery with maximum 100 for raids.

    A team of 8 is a joy to play in CoH as it was not role dependent thereby including many unique character builds.
  • I really don't get the group limit to start with. Usually, experience and loot is divided amongst the entire group anyway, so if people want to run around in a huge pack and are okay with low-risk, low-reward, I say let them.

    I understand if you have instanced dungeons and such that you can farm over and over with specific boss loots that you'd want to limit group size. But, generally lock-out timers or diminishing returns cover that stuff.

    As for over-buffing, well even GW2 has target limits on their abilities already. Most of them affect like 5 people max for that very reason.

    I'm all for letting people set their own group limitations. I mean, you do have to cap it somewhere, but for the most part, players will do what benefits them the most and grants them the most efficiency.
    Most people won't want to settle for a 20th share, for instance. But, for the guy with 20 friends who want to stick together, it would offer them the choice. These days, you can even scale up encounters fairly easily in games.

    I guess, basically, I'm saying that the small group size limits are a bit of a holdover from the old DND rule days. It wouldn't be that difficult to move away from, in most cases. And, for those edge cases, there's usually already well-established ways to counter large groups.

    As for class balance, I hate the push for equality and homogenity we've seen lately as much as anyone. If they are all going to be equal and do roughly the same things, then there's not much point in wasting time developing extra classes.
  • [quote quote=1242]I really don’t get the group limit to start with. Usually, experience and loot is divided amongst the entire group anyway, so if people want to run around in a huge pack and are okay with low-risk, low-reward, I say let them.

    I understand if you have instanced dungeons and such that you can farm over and over with specific boss loots that you’d want to limit group size. But, generally lock-out timers or diminishing returns cover that stuff.

    As for over-buffing, well even GW2 has target limits on their abilities already. Most of them affect like 5 people max for that very reason.

    I’m all for letting people set their own group limitations. I mean, you do have to cap it somewhere, but for the most part, players will do what benefits them the most and grants them the most efficiency.
    Most people won’t want to settle for a 20th share, for instance. But, for the guy with 20 friends who want to stick together, it would offer them the choice. These days, you can even scale up encounters fairly easily in games.

    I guess, basically, I’m saying that the small group size limits are a bit of a holdover from the old DND rule days. It wouldn’t be that difficult to move away from, in most cases. And, for those edge cases, there’s usually already well-established ways to counter large groups.

    As for class balance, I hate the push for equality and homogenity we’ve seen lately as much as anyone. If they are all going to be equal and do roughly the same things, then there’s not much point in wasting time developing extra classes.

    [/quote]

    Although the 5-man-system might be a remenant from the old days, it might also be because WoW more or less normalized that standard. If you remember back to the old WoW days where the exp was static (certain amount of exp spread over the players), everyone was boosted by a highlevel character. After they changed it, they made the exp amount dynamic (I think), so every player got a certain amount, only for one player.
    So the obvious problem with having an "unlocked" party size is that either you have expscaling (you get just the right amount of exp for those players). But on the otherhand this would make most dungeons too easy, so you would also need scaling encounters, which then defeats the "low risk, low reward" scenario.

    But you could make it so a dungeon had a "recommended size", if the group was less than the size the exp scaled. But if they where larger the exp/loot capped at the recommended size :)
  • just don't make the punishment for group play to hard. I mean it is an MMO you want players to play together, so maybe lowering the exp and loot they get if they play as a group is not so good in the end. instead, reward group play with a small 5% boost or just let it stay the same. kill one mob solo get 50 XP kill the mob in a group everyone gets 50 XP. Just don't punish group play. This will be a great problem for support or tank player in the long run.
    Make the groups size a big as they want I see no reason for a limit there (maybe the limited space on a desktop for group icons and all but this is not so big. We all can play blind XD) .
  • Why cant a medium group be composed of 2x small group ?
    Why cant a large group be composed of 2x medium group (4x small) ?
    Why cant a Raid be composed of 2x large group (8x small) ?
    Surely at the end of the day its just about group comms and scaled content to suit.
    Does a group context really have to be one single layer only ?

    Biggest hurdle for me is Group PvP where you have large groups wiping out everything that isnt a large group.
    Unless you have banded combat of like size groups, you cant really stop the death of varied group size.
    Only the zerg matters.

    Second problem on the PvE side is the existance of classes.
    Dungeons are ALWAYS biased toward one class...often the best DD version....which makes other classes redundant or superfluous.
    A solution is tailored instances, where the class composition of any group changes the resulting encounter.

    Why is balance important ? Without it you just getting everyone using the latest OP cloned FoTM class build.
    Whats the point of classes if all but one are superfluous ?
    Who wants to play a MMO where everyone is a clone ?
    If you 'forced' everyone to use a unique build (just like a username) , maybe that wouldnt be an issue.
    But that requires unlimited builds to be possible in the first place rather than just 64.
  • With 64 variations you can bet your bottom dollar certain variations will be strait up more useful in most situations. The good thing is this game is extremely diverse in what you will be able to do. Surely within the possibilities of the game every class variation can serve a purpose even if it is very small.

    Hypothetical example: Mage + cleric has no CC and not the highest damage. For this reason its not optimal in raids, dungeons, or even any kind of group pvp. It's only good at solo situations because it can heal itself and survive the burst of others winning small skirmishes with attrition.
  • Thats why I was thinking of 'tailored' dungeon and raid instances by class composition.
    What if the boss changed its DD, healing or tanking abilities to match the group it faced ?
    No specific class would be redundant.
    No specific class would find a dungeon easier than another.

    What if each boss had 64 defensive and offensive mechanics to be a unique nemesis of any kind of adversary or group of adversaries ?
  • [quote quote=1784]With 64 variations you can bet your bottom dollar certain variations will be strait up more useful in most situations. The good thing is this game is extremely diverse in what you will be able to do. Surely within the possibilities of the game every class variation can serve a purpose even if it is very small.

    Hypothetical example: Mage + cleric has no CC and not the highest damage. For this reason its not optimal in raids, dungeons, or even any kind of group pvp. It’s only good at solo situations because it can heal itself and survive the burst of others winning small skirmishes with attrition.

    [/quote]

    Is there Information on this class already out? I mean even without CC od high damage this class could be a HoT class or one of the best buff/Dbuff class out there. Doesn't make it any less liked in raids or groups. To make this Combinations liked is the job of the Dev Team when balancing the classes.
  • It's a hypothetical example. It means not supported by evidence or highly conjectural. In this case made up off the top of my head. So in my hypothetical example we assume everything is true for the sake of the point. For you to add extra stuff to the class I made up defeats the point.

    I'll add more detail to my class to better clarify. It can only heal and do damage but does neither optimally. In a raid you only ever have the option to cast damage or cast healing. So at any given point during a raid or dungeon you are a certain percentage less useful than the rest of the raid if that raid is comprised of optimal classes. But because in pvp there are most surely situations you would rather heal yourself to recover rather than throw 1 more fireball at your enemy it makes. It quite good in small skirmishes where you have the utility for yourself that usually comes from having a group.
  • I would love to see AoC break the five player / group pattern. In an open world, group size does not matter so much.

    And in dungeons It usually tends to be very important. Maybe flexible dungeon is one way to go? If the group is 5 - 8 players, the dungeon adapts to 5 - 8 players.

    Larger groups usually allow more flexibility (imo more fun) class configurations.
  • I brought this up too that Instances shouldnt be balanced around the 4/5 player setup. I think that they should have a max around 12 and a minimum of 5 then you take who ever you want up to the max number of players. I also think Raids should have a minimum number of needed players like 20 but allow people to take more players if they want to. Yes that means raids will not be balanced around the hardest difficulty. But I think if we break the mold of Raiding = best PVE gear. and just make Raiding about crafting mat drops, components to gear, Glamour items, Mounts, Gold and so on not about the WOW gear treadmill there is no need to have hardcore raiding. If people want that other games have that type of treadmill.
  • I really miss EQ2 and its 6-toon dungeons / 24-toon raids. I'm now playing ESO where a "group" is 4 toons. =/
  • It's tricky, i don't like scaling in games tho. Imo dungeons & raids should have set numbers.
  • [quote quote=10931]It’s tricky, i don’t like scaling in games tho. Imo dungeons & raids should have set numbers.

    [/quote]

    The problem is people in this game are not looking for Instanced treadmills for gear. We want Crafting Mats, Crafting pieces, Glamour Gear, and Gold to drop in Instances vs gear. So what is the problem with Scaling because we are not looking at the same old treadmill.
  • I'd like to see scaling content for instances at the start, so dungeons can be done by 3 to 24 people depending on dungeon size and requirements.
  • [quote quote=10934]<blockquote>
    <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/group-size-and-class-balance/#post-10931" rel="nofollow">Mx7 wrote:</a></div>
    It’s tricky, i don’t like scaling in games tho. Imo dungeons & raids should have set numbers.

    </blockquote>
    The problem is people in this game are not looking for Instanced treadmills for gear. We want Crafting Mats, Crafting pieces, Glamour Gear, and Gold to drop in Instances vs gear. So what is the problem with Scaling because we are not looking at the same old treadmill.

    [/quote]

    I do agree with you on the drops & the current dungeons/raids that we have today in other games wont cut it. I guess that is why we're all here, we want to experience something new & fresh.

    About the scaling, i guess there could be some kind of hybrid system. I wont care that much about PVE tho since i'm mostly hanging out in the PVP sections.

    We'll see soon :)
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