Should AoC have many skills on their skill bar(s) or should they be limited?

ArchivedUser

I'm wondering how the skill system in AoC will be developed. Since i've heared their will be tab targeting in this game, will that mean we get alot of skills to put on the skill bar or?

What I mean with ''many'' is that it will be similiar to World of Warcraft as in there will be multiple skill bars, with many skills to choose from. WoW works with tab targeting, but another example like Guild Wars 2 will not work with the tab targeting system. Basicaly how that system works is that if you choose between multiple weapons your skill set will chance for a total of 5 skills or so per weapon.

Personaly I preffer the way WoW has been doing this in their games. I like to have a lot of skills to choose from, it also brings alot more mechanics in the game and makes the combat system more fun by giving the player more skills to choose from. It also makes the game more competetive, because the skills will include more stuns or other little mechanics which the other player has to anticipate to.

What do you preffer as far as the sheer amount of skills go and how would you like this system to work? comment below!

ArchivedUser

Steven has said that they don't want to fill your bars with abilities you'll only use once. So from this, you can gather there probably will be a number of skills as you level, however, you probably won't be overwhelmed with buttons and abilities that you get lost in.

But the augmentation of the skills with your second class will alter your skills, so you are given the choice as to what skill you would like to have based from the base skills of the primary class.

For me, I found WoW had too many abilities, as I played mage and used only 4 or 5 abilities and then maybe some cooldowns if raiding. So for me I'm looking at maybe 7/8 abilities to put on bars with option for more. That's only a rough guess.

ArchivedUser

I also prefer the way WoW handles skillbars. I think it allows a wider variaty of rotations for a single class and this especially allows people who mastered their class to shine in pvp and pve. The only downside is that it new players may find the many skills distracting and cant put all of them to good use, but this should be ok since you only have a limited amount of skills when you start out and one should be able to figure things out when playing through the game.

ArchivedUser

I would like to see an extended and limited action skillset. I feel like having 8 skills on your bar is the sweetspots.
Depending of your roles in game, you will likely get some specific skills. Tanks for instance, needs at least:

*at least an aggro building skill example: Taunt.
*at least a defensive cooldown skill example: Bloodlust
*at least a gap closer or a crowd control skill example: Rush
*at least 3 combat skills (Bread and Butter, one offensive, one defensive) Example: DragSlash, Bash, Riposte
*at least an aggro dumping skill example: Shout
*and your Ultimate Skill. example: Way of the warrior

What do you guys think?

ArchivedUser

The sweet spot for me is roughly 16-18 buttons to press. For an in combat rotation that may only consist of 8-10. I like abilities to have importance in rotation based on the situation; AoE, single target, and not just a mindless rotation that you use in every single scenario no matter what. I also think interrupts should be an important part of rotations. Other than that I always enjoy pre-combat buffs, some utility skills, out of combat stuff, CC breaks and probably some things I'm forgetting.

Maybe 18 is pushing it a little bit, but the biggest thing for me is just making sure rotations aren't mindless.

ArchivedUser

Hey HumblePuffin, would you like to have separate conversation about the "pre-combat buffs, some utility skills, out of combat stuff, CC breaks and probably some things I’m forgetting." part because I had a different perspective in mind and I would truly be interested in your take about it.

An example would be that Buff, Control and Utility skills should only go to support character to give them weight. I like the idea of a buffing exclusive bard that you take with you because it's a polyvalent class that adds another layer of strategies.
Another example for the CC-Breaks that comes to mind comes from playing a lot of MOBA's and MMO's and through each metas, Crowdcontrols (either soft or hard) was always a mandatory mechanic to use to win and is not always engaging. CC-Break is a valid answer though, but what if Crowd control and Crowd control breakers were mutually exclusives for certain class. (ie. Fighters have Knockdown, Rangers Rooting trap, Rogues Strip, Mages Freezing movement, Summoners Confusion, Clerics Silences and Bard have Charm.)

To go back onto the topic, I think it is safe to say that we are all curious about the skillbar because we will have a glance of the balance between auto attacks and rotation.

ArchivedUser

[quote quote=8608]
To go back onto the topic, I think it is safe to say that we are all curious about the skillbar because we will have a glance of the balance between auto attacks and rotation.
[/quote]

They said there won't be auto attacks and the combat is based on rotations and skill chains.

ArchivedUser

Black desert did this best. Pretty much every skill with only a few exceptions were done through key combinations very similar to how you'd play a soul calibur game. Very satisfying and very skill based combat. BUT you did have a few skills that were skill bar only and just about any skill or item could be placed on your skill bar.

I feel that is the perfect balance. 8 skill bar slots is all you need.

ArchivedUser

Oh? Thanks for the answer LiaLee!
To my mind, even if we have "no Auto Attacks" (Star Wars: The Old Republic didn't have it also) we will still have attack skills that are used as fillers. (Think weapon skill of Guild Wars 2, At-Will skills of NeverWinter). Having a small number of skill slots will usually means that the attack skill may be a tad repetitive. But if we can strings skills together to create combos, then this means that we can add another layer of depth and create this "Select what you want to run with" skillsets that was so good on Guild Wars 1. In anycase, sorry for my rumbling and thank you for answering this! =D

ArchivedUser

[/quote]

[quote quote=8383]I would like to see an extended and limited action skillset. I feel like having 8 skills on your bar is the sweetspots.
Depending of your roles in game, you will likely get some specific skills. Tanks for instance, needs at least:

*at least an aggro building skill example: Taunt.
*at least a defensive cooldown skill example: Bloodlust
*at least a gap closer or a crowd control skill example: Rush
*at least 3 combat skills (Bread and Butter, one offensive, one defensive) Example: DragSlash, Bash, Riposte
*at least an aggro dumping skill example: Shout
*and your Ultimate Skill. example: Way of the warrior

What do you guys think?

[/quote]

I feel like if you get 8 skills on your bar that you might feel limited. It would be nice if you could customize and build a skill set you feel comfortable with playing. But your suggestion seems great aswell, it might just feel limited thats all.

ArchivedUser

I like the idea of having restricted amount of skills usable at the given time. E.g. There could be 12 skills of which you can hotbar (and use) only 5 (yes, quite like moba style). One would have to be careful planning what skills to use with the build they are using. That said I should mention, I liked the skill bar we had in the <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHTWhIF5cqI" target="_blank">Mage's life</a> video.

What I hate to have is bunch of skills with so similar effects there's hardly any variation and they're basically there just to make longer combos without having to wait for cooldown.

ArchivedUser

I hope its more like Gw2 or wildstar, leaves a lot to skill and such.

ArchivedUser

i agree with HumblePuffin ,having at least 12+ skills, coupled with an extremely polished pve content will require more technicality on the player side to beat the content and consequently will make the game a lot more fun (at least for me)

ArchivedUser

I hated Black Desert because of their "streetfighter like" combat system.

Not all of us have 10 fingers or fingers that can bend to do mandatory combos.

ArchivedUser

Their will be a fairly amount of skills in every class, steven said that the skill system will be heavily influenced by the class they take, the second class determines the upgrades you're primary class, so you can say that having a second class can give you a lot of awesome skills.

ArchivedUser

i rewatched TheLazyPeon video and i came across a proper skill bar with a lot of skills variety that's look pretty promising.
<img src="http://imgur.com/a/D4oB8" alt="" />

ArchivedUser

after i rewatched TheLazyPeon video i came across a skill bar with a lot variety of skills, looks pretty promising.
[img]https://preview.ibb.co/nm0Z5k/aocSkill.jpg[/img]

ArchivedUser

Personally hoping for 5-6. WoW action bars were overwhelming af. And your rotation in reality, were what, maybe 8 buttons (figurative count before someone hollers out two key macros.) but I think with the tab targeted and reactive combat they're shooting for (apparently) 5-7 would be perfect. Also might leave the possibility for controller integration.

ArchivedUser

Another element to consider is how gear sets can impact skills and builds. This adds another layer of depth for the player to consider. Even weapon / skill bar swapping, class synergy and team game play dynamics can impact what skills / gear you use and how you use them. Having to make decisions on what skills to equip might seem limiting at first but when you combine this with gear sets, class and group dynamics and situational combat, you can actually be pretty creative in your builds which can be a lot of fun. It also gives you a sense of diversity and flexibility in what you can bring to the table in any given situation.

I believe one of the reasons why Mobas are so popular is that they are, at the surface simple and easily accessible, they have very high skill caps. This means that while a new player can pick the game up and have fun, in time and with practice they can take their game play up to another level which gives them room to grow, something to reach for and a sense of achievement when they get there.

Steve Jobs believed that Apple products needed to be simple and an extension of the user for expressing their ideas and creativity, not a road block or wall to them. I feel the same way about game play. Keeping it simple yet giving the advanced user room to grow is the way to go.

ArchivedUser

I rather liked the system in the original Guild Wars, where you had a lot of abilities to choose from, but you could only have 8 usable abilities at a time. This meant you had to think about what skills to take into each mission, and meant you weren't bogged down with tons of different skills, plus it kept the UI clean and tidy.

The downside to that kind of system is that inevitably a lot of skills were very situation and barely used, and cookie-cutter builds were considered the law, to the point where people expected you to have the "perfect" skills set-up for each mission and if you were missing a vital skill, they won't accept you.

ArchivedUser

8 with 1 ultimate seems good to me

ArchivedUser

Id like a combat bar and artisan toolbar...depending on if you are in or out of combat.
I detest the 3 year olds whack-a-mole timer systems personally.
So 100s of skills and skill bars littered all over the screen, is not a game I'd ever be playing.

A limited, essential and unique skill sets out of an eventual choice of 100s as you progress would be perfect.
Progress is good. Choice is good. It forces variety.
Access to 100s of skills at the same time, is neither choice nor variety.

Anyway, I am also hoping for race specific (biome) as well as class specific (tactical) skills.
I want to counter opponents....not spam rotations and win.

ArchivedUser

I always found 12 to be my magic number of hot keys. I would like to see 10 skills and 2 quick slot item keys. It never made much sense to me when you could have an onslaught of items in your inventory that just magicked it's way into use from your backpack. An in combat and out of combat bar is a cool idea.

ArchivedUser

Litle amount of skills but deeply tought trough would be the best option imo, 9-12 skills on hotbar, items usable from inventory if you need too (or on additional hotbar) the "all skills you can use" is a bad idea since you want to have challenge with what you are plaing, and with all skills being displayed the game could become a clickfest who has better reaction (better makro) than real skill which you learn from playing the game exploring enganging in fights etc.

ArchivedUser

I like the idea of more so being able to have as many bars as you want, but your spellbook isn't flooded.
I feel that limiting your spell choice takes away from the fantasy if you have 12 spells and you're only allowed to use 8 of them.

ArchivedUser

I'd love to see a system where you have 10-15 skills on your bar(s) at anyone time, but more skills on your character. Then in addition, there would be even more skills available to the class but you choose which ones you get through character progression. So for example, 10 skills on your bar, 20 skills that your character has at max level, and 30 skills that your character class has available.

ArchivedUser

It depends on how they design their combat. If Combat is going to be fluid and players are expected to move around a lot, then fewer combat options will be ideal.. as its been mentioned before, it's hard to hit certain keys if you're busy trying to move around avoiding attacks. If combat is going to be more stationary, then you can go for more icons because I will be able to focus on clicking them all instead of moving and dodging. The only limit should be to make them all distinct and different. EQ2 has an insane number of skills that can fill 4 or 5 action bars easily.. That's a bit much in my opinion.

ArchivedUser

I think it certainly depends on the final style of combat AoC decides on.

Typically, I've always like the option to create sets of commands that I can toggle through as desired depending on the gameplay at that moment (gathering, exploring, raiding, etc).

Same idea when given the option to toggle through weapons as well (melee, ranged, mixed, etc), which I LOVE to have!

ArchivedUser

[quote quote=9705]I rather liked the system in the original Guild Wars, where you had a lot of abilities to choose from, but you could only have 8 usable abilities at a time. This meant you had to think about what skills to take into each mission, and meant you weren’t bogged down with tons of different skills, plus it kept the UI clean and tidy.

The downside to that kind of system is that inevitably a lot of skills were very situation and barely used, and cookie-cutter builds were considered the law, to the point where people expected you to have the “perfect” skills set-up for each mission and if you were missing a vital skill, they won’t accept you.

[/quote]

This,
the player has access to multiple skills, secondary classes can augment skills and not every skill is allowed to be hotkeyed or toggled.

WoW pvp and pve isnt good because of the number of skills at your disposal... having different tiers of the same heal but with different numbers doesnt make for enganging pve or pvp.

BDOs system was laughably simplistic. CC is a copmplete RNG nightmare and one CC leads to death. Pve in that game is completely boring to even begin with and PVP is just as laughably bad. Add in the fun of desync that is exacerbated by their action combat and that game is just a time sink.

GW1 has always had both an enjoyable pve scene and pvp, multiple builds that can succeed in several avenues and the ability to make unique character creations that were not thought possible. Making builds in that game was always fun.

ArchivedUser

If everyone has access to the same skills at any moment in time, how are they unique ?
Toolbars enforce choice....and through choice... variety.

The last thing I want to see in an MMO is 1000s of clones.
Thats also why I am not too happy about the 64 class limitation.

ArchivedUser

True up to a point. It's much easier to end up with the same 5 skills as someone else compared to having the same 10 skills, or 15 skills though.