[quote quote=11408]I don’t know whether or not Intrepid has thought of integrating this, or whether it fits with their vision of what the game should be, but I would love to see a Final Fantasy-inspired system in which changing jobs is pretty standard. In this game, with an emphasis on governments and single guild allegiance and node development, it would be best to consolidate all efforts into one character rather than an alt. Changing your class allows you to do everything on one character, and if one class gets nerfed or buffed you can just change, so balance isn’t nearly as big of an issue.
One significant downside is it makes the amount of gear you need to keep much, much higher – but that also stimulates the economy.
I would really like to see AoC consider a class-change system, whether that system is instant-change (FFXIV), situational change (FFXI – you have to be in a ‘home’), or complicated change (as in it takes effort, like a quest chain, or is gated behind a time gate)
Thoughts?
[/quote]
No they are not going to make this game like FFXIV where you can change your weapon and be another Job. They want choices to mean something and FFXIV kills choices. Everything from gear to the jobs are streamlined and make the game as boring as hell. Ashes is breaking the mold of streamlining everything. Yes it sounds like you can change your second class, but no you should not be able to change your main class. That is what choices having meaning is about. Also FFXIV the Job system works well because the game is 90% designed around being a Dungeon Crawler. Ashes will not be a dungeon crawler. Its focus is open world PVP with a lot of PVE elements included.
[quote quote=11068]Being better in a single situation is not the balancing act going on in most MMOs, most of them presently on the market being better in ONE situation means being better at PVP. Sorry , but the majority of people who enjoy playing MMOs at one point in time will be involved in combat whether its with npcs or with plaers. Having one class be the cookie cutter I win button doesnt really inspire confidence in any dev team[/quote]
What I think Helzbelz is saying is that MMOs like WoW attempt to balance classes so that each can hold their own against all other classes. This is a fundementally flawed approach as it creates a natural pressure to homogenise abilities in all the classes. This makes the classes non-unique and reduces the feel of different playstyles. The alternative being the rock, paper, scissors approach where classes are good in some situations but not in others. For example a ranged dps shouldn't be as effective in closed environments against melee classes. Whereas melee should be weak in open spaces against magic users that can keep them at range. Equally, your class should be at a natural advantage against some classes and disadvantages against others. If not, then the abilities are too similar between classes.
[quote quote=11775]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/2/#post-11068" rel="nofollow">Dissodant wrote:</a></div> Being better in a single situation is not the balancing act going on in most MMOs, most of them presently on the market being better in ONE situation means being better at PVP. Sorry , but the majority of people who enjoy playing MMOs at one point in time will be involved in combat whether its with npcs or with plaers. Having one class be the cookie cutter I win button doesnt really inspire confidence in any dev team </blockquote> What I think Helzbelz is saying is that MMOs like WoW attempt to balance classes so that each can hold their own against all other classes. This is a fundementally flawed approach as it creates a natural pressure to homogenise abilities in all the classes. This makes the classes non-unique and reduces the feel of different playstyles. The alternative being the rock, paper, scissors approach where classes are good in some situations but not in others. For example a ranged dps shouldn’t be as effective in closed environments against melee classes. Whereas melee should be weak in open spaces against magic users that can keep them at range. Equally, your class should be at a natural advantage against some classes and disadvantages against others. If not, then the abilities are too similar between classes.
[/quote]
Yep. The Streamlining of the classes in WOW is why I have not touched the game but for a whole 2 weeks since the first 2 months of WOD. Because I am tired of streamlining. I want classes to feel different and have strengths and weaknesses. My best example is Druids in TBC were great HOT healers. Palis were Single Target Healers. Priest could do Single Target or AoE healing and Shaman were chain healers but could do Single target healing too. Each had different play styles and were good in different situations. Druids were not so good if they had to heal the main tank solo, Palis could keep up both MT and OT themselves, and Priest and Shaman could go either way.
I think instead of trying to make loads of classes, that there should be a few main classes which you could then chose sub classes. These subclasses could have different lore, cultures and tales to tell about the difference in style. Having lots of different classes makes the game feel a bit random and loses its value, so this is how i would do it with one class. Warrior - Knight/Protector/Heavy (Tank Warrior- heavy armour, plated, sword and shield.), Fighter/weapons master/bruiser (DPS Warrior, medium armour, chainmail, Specialise in variety of medium to heavy arms weapons), Brawler/assassin/Hardhitter (Light Warrior, Heavy Leathers, one handed weapons, short swords, daggers, dual weapons) OR maybe this is something that would depend on how you build your character with gear and talents?
I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
[quote quote=11968]I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
[/quote]
Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
[quote quote=12008]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote> Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
[/quote]
"Again", please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn't like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don't present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said "make the game like wow", but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo's, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo's for what has, and what hasn't worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think "there should be no focus on balancing all the classes", seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
[quote quote=12025]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12008" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote> Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
</blockquote> “Again”, please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn’t like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don’t present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said “make the game like wow”, but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo’s, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo’s for what has, and what hasn’t worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think “there should be no focus on balancing all the classes”, seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
[/quote]
No I am basically telling you the dam truth. People like you go to every new MMORPGS forums, want it designed exactly like your current MMORPG. Then when it releases and the game is nothing new you bitch about it that it is not WOW or FFXIV or any other MMORPG that you play. Then you leave to go back to your old MMORPG. Then the new game has to go F2P because no one wants to play the game because its just another WOW Clone. I am telling you the truth. If you want WOW stay in WOW. If I wanted a Gear Treadmill I would not be on this forum pushing for this game to have a Gear treadmill. I would just stay in FFXIV.
It's one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now. It sucks it makes every class the same as the next class. Hell this game will have many situations some classes will be completely useless for and in other situations dominate. Guess what. That is TRUE balance. Not Today's MMORPG where All Melee DPS play exactly the same, All Tanks play Exactly the same, All range DPS play exactly the same and All healers play exactly the same. Because people like you think everything should be GREAT at EVERYTHING. Sorry you want that, stay in the MMORPG you are in because if you get what you want you will be come bored and just end up back in that MMORPG.
I want something Different than the mainstream mindless MMORPG. I want MMORPGs to look at MMORPGs BEFORE WOW. Believe it or not MMORPGS existed before WOW and Did Great before WOW. Yes There was not 1v1 balance and things were great.
[quote quote=12044]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12025" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12008" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote> Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
</blockquote> “Again”, please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn’t like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don’t present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said “make the game like wow”, but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo’s, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo’s for what has, and what hasn’t worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think “there should be no focus on balancing all the classes”, seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
</blockquote> No I am basically telling you the dam truth. People like you go to every new MMORPGS forums, want it designed exactly like your current MMORPG. Then when it releases and the game is nothing new you bitch about it that it is not WOW or FFXIV or any other MMORPG that you play. Then you leave to go back to your old MMORPG. Then the new game has to go F2P because no one wants to play the game because its just another WOW Clone. I am telling you the truth. If you want WOW stay in WOW. If I wanted a Gear Treadmill I would not be on this forum pushing for this game to have a Gear treadmill. I would just stay in FFXIV.
It’s one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now. It sucks it makes every class the same as the next class. Hell this game will have many situations some classes will be completely useless for and in other situations dominate. Guess what. That is TRUE balance. Not Today’s MMORPG where All Melee DPS play exactly the same, All Tanks play Exactly the same, All range DPS play exactly the same and All healers play exactly the same. Because people like you think everything should be GREAT at EVERYTHING. Sorry you want that, stay in the MMORPG you are in because if you get what you want you will be come bored and just end up back in that MMORPG.
I want something Different than the mainstream mindless MMORPG. I want MMORPGs to look at MMORPGs BEFORE WOW. Believe it or not MMORPGS existed before WOW and Did Great before WOW. Yes There was not 1v1 balance and things were great.
[/quote]
So from 1 post you now know me and people like me, Christ you're pretentious..
As I already established I don't want another WOW, I would in fact like to move on from a 12 year old game onto something new and exciting.
I simply said that I thought the character system in this game sounded like the one WOW already has, being you pick a main class, and a specialization thereafter, and contrary to that, I would much rather prefer a different system with less classes, so you could focus on balancing them. As I'm sure you're well aware, class balance is one of those things that seem to piss people off about games, causing outrages on forums.
Your statement "It’s one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now." is such bogus yet again, I never said to balance things around 1v1, I said " seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges". They clearly want different brackets of pvp, both 1v1, as well as something with bigger teams, plus the siege system, and then they'll have to find some way to keep every class fairly equal in strength. Also, never have I ever seen a mmorpg like WOW, RIFT or Aion balancing classes around 1v1, duels have basically been the most imbalanced part of wow PVP, always.
If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.
How this will be sorted I have no idea of, and I'm fairly certain the devs wont be reading this forum post for a solution either, but staying on topic, I find it very hard to believe they can keep 1v1 arena entertaining and challenging for everyone if they don't tweak the classes very cleverly.
[quote quote=12051]If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.[/quote]
What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things.
The mail focus in the game will be the node system and open world PVP. Which there is no way to balance open world PVP. One guild could come with 150 players vs another guild that only has 50 defending the node. There is no way to balance that. When it comes to classes. again you streamlined the classes and you really make it about numbers and gear vs players who have different classes and specs that can help nullify larger numbers because of so many different classes.
I understand what you want. What I am saying is you cannot balance a game around mechanics that have no way to be balanced period. What good is balancing classes for 3 v 3 or 5 v 5 when that will rarely happen in open world PVP like sieges. What I am saying is Ashes should be a good sandbox games with more options and no real way to balance things. Let the player base balance the classes out themselves.
Also please read what Wonderboy posted. He is 100% correct. There will be so much content in this game it is impossible to balance, Lets say you have 5 to 10 Arena brackets for PVP, Plus you have Open world Siege PVP and then you got the caravan PVP. Plus you have Open world solo PVE, Group open world PVE, and instanced PVE. You cannot possibly balance all this without streamlining everything and basically being like the next MMORPG. There should be many choices and some classes and specs better than another in certain situations. More choices is better than what we have today.
[quote quote=12089]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12051" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change. </blockquote> What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things. [/quote]
I think a system focusing on interdependence is definitely one way to go, but personally I don't like relying on setting up certain teams because "we need that mana drainer class", or "we need that insane aoe dmg dealer x5 for this raid to work" can be really frustrating. I remember in Rift world PVP where I was in a small guild where we used to fight 20vs100 etc in open world pvp, we would get 3-5 people playing a mage spec that drained everyone's mana. If the right people were online that evening, we could beat any numbers because the enemy was out of mana in 5seconds of the game and we could kill them without them getting heals.
Obviously I understand that world pvp wont be fair, nor should it be in my opinion. If 1 person faces 3 people, he should die unless he's incredibly good at playing, and if 20 players fight 40, no class setup should be able to compensate for that, player skill as in rotating CC, hardswapping targets, protecting healers etc is tactics and require teamwork, having a big guild so you can bring "10 of those" and "5 of those" just doesn't make any sense to me.
Maybe I'm naive, but I figure if you make classes fairly balanced to each other, I figure what setup you bring shouldn't matter as much. I don't really see the point of every class having some "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT" spell, as in 1 class having a 5sec 1-shot ability, or another having a stupid mana drain that will prove essential for any serious pvp siege etc.
You can have cool class mechanics like say how you teleport, charge, fear, stun, grips, shields, heals and whatever else without a class having to be super different from another in every aspect like the amount of damage you deal from casts or melee hits for example.
Honestly I have no idea what the "best" solution is for this is, nor what the general player-base might prefer, I'm just speaking of personal experience and what I myself has picked up on along my 15 years of palying mmorpgs.
Anyways, glad to see you get more on topic in your last post, much more constructive and easy to communicate with. Let's try to keep things constructive in here :p
[quote quote=12143]<blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12089" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div> <blockquote> <div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12051" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div> If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.
</blockquote> What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things. </blockquote> I think a system focusing on interdependence is definitely one way to go, but personally I don’t like relying on setting up certain teams because “we need that mana drainer class”, or “we need that insane aoe dmg dealer x5 for this raid to work” can be really frustrating. I remember in Rift world PVP where I was in a small guild where we used to fight 20vs100 etc in open world pvp, we would get 3-5 people playing a mage spec that drained everyone’s mana. If the right people were online that evening, we could beat any numbers because the enemy was out of mana in 5seconds of the game and we could kill them without them getting heals.
Obviously I understand that world pvp wont be fair, nor should it be in my opinion. If 1 person faces 3 people, he should die unless he’s incredibly good at playing, and if 20 players fight 40, no class setup should be able to compensate for that, player skill as in rotating CC, hardswapping targets, protecting healers etc is tactics and require teamwork, having a big guild so you can bring “10 of those” and “5 of those” just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Maybe I’m naive, but I figure if you make classes fairly balanced to each other, I figure what setup you bring shouldn’t matter as much. I don’t really see the point of every class having some “OMG DID YOU SEE THAT” spell, as in 1 class having a 5sec 1-shot ability, or another having a stupid mana drain that will prove essential for any serious pvp siege etc.
You can have cool class mechanics like say how you teleport, charge, fear, stun, grips, shields, heals and whatever else without a class having to be super different from another in every aspect like the amount of damage you deal from casts or melee hits for example.
Honestly I have no idea what the “best” solution is for this is, nor what the general player-base might prefer, I’m just speaking of personal experience and what I myself has picked up on along my 15 years of palying mmorpgs.
Anyways, glad to see you get more on topic in your last post, much more constructive and easy to communicate with. Let’s try to keep things constructive in here :p
[/quote]
Yea I dont think the classes and the game should revolve around "If you dont have X Y Z classes then you will suck period" No it shouldnt be like that however there should be some setups that are clearly better for PVP than others. For example a Pure Tank that is designed for PVE content should really be at a disadvantage vs someone like a Stealth Ranger. You get where I am going with this? I dont want to see a Pure PVE tank setup be equal to a setup that is designed for PVP. What I find is best for balance is If you have some classes that are more designed for PVP than PVE and some that are designed for PVE than PVP. It does not mean you cannot do one other the other it just means that your not idea for the situation.
O I do think they need mana draining abilities. That would be cool as hell to take a small 20 man team into an 80 attack force and just start draining mana all over the place while you have 60 rangers on the wall shooting at everyone and everything :) Mana drain the healer piss him off first :)
I just really dont want to see any streamlining in this game like I do in WOW. I do miss the days of unique classes that have their specialties. There will always be something that can neutralize 1 class or another. Like a mana drainer attacked by a Ranger or Rogue. Rogue could be neutralized by a warrior with heavy armor and so on.
</blockquote> Yea I dont think the classes and the game should revolve around “If you dont have X Y Z classes then you will suck period” No it shouldnt be like that however there should be some setups that are clearly better for PVP than others. For example a Pure Tank that is designed for PVE content should really be at a disadvantage vs someone like a Stealth Ranger. You get where I am going with this? I dont want to see a Pure PVE tank setup be equal to a setup that is designed for PVP. What I find is best for balance is If you have some classes that are more designed for PVP than PVE and some that are designed for PVE than PVP. It does not mean you cannot do one other the other it just means that your not idea for the situation.
O I do think they need mana draining abilities. That would be cool as hell to take a small 20 man team into an 80 attack force and just start draining mana all over the place while you have 60 rangers on the wall shooting at everyone and everything <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" /> Mana drain the healer piss him off first <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
I just really dont want to see any streamlining in this game like I do in WOW. I do miss the days of unique classes that have their specialties. There will always be something that can neutralize 1 class or another. Like a mana drainer attacked by a Ranger or Rogue. Rogue could be neutralized by a warrior with heavy armor and so on.
[/quote]
I never liked tanks etc in pvp either, but under the right circumstance it would be fine, damage vs mitigration evening itself out etc, but generally, f-em.
From what you said about bounty hunters etc it sounded like you wanted certain classes to be obliterated by others, and everything balancing out in big combat only where you had everything.
Mana drain is a really annoying feature, specially when it isn't something you can counter, like a long cast etc. I remember in rift you put a debuf on people, and if they used an ability for X seconds, they removed x% mana from everyone within X-yard range. Was just ridicules and required zero-to-no skill if you faced larger groups who weren't coordinated.
Like a 5-sec visible animation cast with a fairly short range so you can counter it, could work, but it need to be in a way it doesn't get exploited to counter any healer etc or be OP as shit, so you can just pick X-number of a class and win large-scale pvp making other classes useless.
Edit: Right, so those smileys just happened... This forum is ridicules .. lol
[quote quote=12436]I never liked tanks etc in pvp either, but under the right circumstance it would be fine, damage vs mitigration evening itself out etc, but generally, f-em.
From what you said about bounty hunters etc it sounded like you wanted certain classes to be obliterated by others, and everything balancing out in big combat only where you had everything.
Mana drain is a really annoying feature, specially when it isn’t something you can counter, like a long cast etc. I remember in rift you put a debuf on people, and if they used an ability for X seconds, they removed x% mana from everyone within X-yard range. Was just ridicules and required zero-to-no skill if you faced larger groups who weren’t coordinated.
Like a 5-sec visible animation cast with a fairly short range so you can counter it, could work, but it need to be in a way it doesn’t get exploited to counter any healer etc or be OP as shit, so you can just pick X-number of a class and win large-scale pvp making other classes useless.
Edit: Right, so those smileys just happened… This forum is ridicules .. lol[/quote]
I didnt do PVP in Rift. I did mainly the open world Rifts which were fun plus the boss fights until I got bored. Also the entire zone going into a state of war was good. Too bad they focused so hard on the gear treadmill of doing Tier 1 of dungeons to do the Next Tier of dungeons just to get into the raids. That was what drove me nuts.
I am thinking of something more like Vanilla WOW had with hunters where their drain mana shot would drain X amount per second over 20 seconds. I remember this specifically because the Bat bitch boss in ZG we had to have our 3 hunters draining her mana because if you didnt then she would heal herself. Its a good mechanic if done right. I am not looking for an over powered mana draining ability but something that does have some effect in the game. I remember it too because when I was twinking in WOW PVP during vanilla my hunter use to drain manage from mages. It helped me win a lot of fights because I would put my mana drain sting on a mage, take a hit or two run away heal up, come back hit him again with the sting. Wait until he is nearly out of mana then hit him. It was about skill with using the ability.
I dont want classes to be OP by another class, but I do think a Class that has strengths that exploit another's weakness is import. Like a Rogue shouldnt go toe to toe with a with a Warrior and win. If the Rogue wants to win it you should use your strengths not just see who can hit harder because in that case a warrior should kick the shit out of the Rogue. I want to see PVPers and PVEers use their class strengths to over come a battle not be the same as the next.
I think the multiplication of classes with mixed talents/skills is positive. The balance between classes can not be guaranteed before the game is alive and full of players. Common sense must prevail, wish luck to some and bad luck to others according to the classes they choose. Let them have all the competence to get the best of them. The mystery of the future is part of the game.
[quote quote=12661]But we still don’t know-is this trinity -”classic” or “smooth” (closer to GW2/ or even to TESO).
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Yeah. 64 classes is the path to a random trinity... you'll never know who is healer, tank or dps. Different situations will ask for different strategies like ArcheAge
Best way to balance classes imo is just to make it how league balances things. Skill should be prioritized to win, some will have disadvantages or advantages, but not enough where a skilled opposing player has no way to counter it and win. The killer for balance is when you or the enemy feels like they have no way to fight back, ie. like how Nightspyre was talking about the mana drain. Cool ability and can be very useful in certain situations, however, if there is no way to remove it or stop it then it cannot be countered and is not fun for the enemy. Sure you can do 40 v 80, but those 80 people are all probably pissed at the fact that they have no idea how to stop the drain.
Another point for balance, classes should be unbalanced with some being better than others, however, a class should never feel like the only reason they cannot perform their role well is because of their class choice, mind you, a class they probably will have dedicated time and effort into on their main. A way you could solve this without making classes the same, is by again, like how league does it, varying time/attack style/specialization. A rogue should be able to one shot you if you are 1. out of position(alone or away from team), 2. you do not have a cc removal or a defensive cd available atm, and 3. the rogue can skillfully pull off his abilities and manage his resources well. A bad rogue will mess up a combo, run out of energy, and then you can retaliate knowing they just used all of their core dmg abilities. This is how you can create counter play, each class should have an equal opportunity in a fight to turn it around or outplay, without making either side feel as if they cannot counter in way.
For PvE, this has to do more with damage timing and style. Each class should deal damage based on timing of abilities and managing resources, however, dps should deal different damage over time in a fight. A rogue who specializes in assassinating should have insane burst, but marginal overtime dps, this goes back to helzbelz point of disadvantages and advantages for classes. A rogue can contribute to an extended fight, but somebody like a warrior who deals more damage or more consistent damage over time should out dps the rogue by a certain amount as long as he is playing correctly. You want to PvP and kill people in 1v1s? Go rogue yet pve dps suffers, overall generalist, not particular good or bad at damage in either? warrior. The difference then will come in with use of defensive abilities and timing, at least for PvP. Rogue does a huge high cd ability that takes 50% of the warriors hp? Warrior could respond with berserk making him deal more damage the lower heath he is and boom, tables turned. Now if the warrior cast berserk too soon? He messed up, rogue forgot about warrior's ability or didn't wait for warrior to use it before doing his ability, the rogue messed up. Each class can counter and counter back, with the prevailing factor in winning should be game knowledge. Didn't know warriors can do that rogue boy? Well no you know and next time don't make the same mistake, it's called get good lol.
For PvE however, knowing it is tab targeting combat, what might help in balancing so the performing aspect gap isn't too huge(cough cough, frost dks and outlaw rogues in legion) is you can change out abilities. THESE ABILITIES SHOULD BE IN LINE WITH THE ARCHETYPE OF THE CLASS! For PvP, rogue can use a huge damaging ability that costs a lot of energy, but hey, if they're dead then you win, but that ability would be extremely bad against bosses who you can't one shot. Trade out the super assassin ability for something with less damage. Note, mixing abilities should be a thing, there shouldn't be a huge amount, but if instead of a super coup de grace the rogue could switch to a combo ability that can stem off into decent damage, yet not instantaneous damage. Hence, the overtime aspect. Or, don't have switching abilities and just have the play style different. Like, hey if your doing pvp, use super damage button, but, in PvE do not use it as you will lose all of your energy and so dps, instead use combo ability that will be better for the extended fight. This sounds bad because I'm not incorporating the other abilities you will use, but I'm am just working off one ability and the rogue and warrior should naturally have 10 abilities that they are using in their combat.
For healers and tanks, I haven't played a lot off MMOs different support classes, but some things that should be different is definitely Helzbelz examples of different healing style, same thing for tanks, different mitigation styles. A core aspect which could make support classes feel more unique however are the group/raid affecting abilities. Paladins could have a long cooldown ability that could place a shield that would negate the next magic attack for all those behind the shield, while warriors could have a raid wide command shout that could inc. his group's armor for a duration, or inc. their attack. Now importantly, bosses should not need a specific class to tank or heal or dps too complete. The bosses and fights should not REQUIRE the paladin's shield or the warrior's buff, it should just make the fight easier for the raid to complete. This way even if a boss is easier with a warrior, the raid can still be accomplished just not as easily. And I uses easily very lightly. This part has more to do with boss mechanics as the classes are not the problem when they cannot do a raid or dungeon as well as another class, bosses should not be made specifically easier for X ability on X class that could give that class a huge advantage over others, a little sure, but one that makes other classes irrelevant or not worth it is very unhealthy for PvE class balancing.
For healers, large protection spells could also be good, or like for the bard, damage enhancing auras. If a tank is about to die, a good ability to show skill could be a stasis or martyr spell of some sort. Ie. tank or dps is about to die, cleric uses an ability that puts the target in a stasis for X time, player cannot be targeted by all abilities or attacks, cannot cast spells or move. Boom, saves tank or dps , allows group to recover but also, off tank has to tank or group has to back off and use cc until tank comes back. The martyr spell, fly to the targets locations, blocking and absorbing the next X attacks aimed at target and reducing damage taken by X%, then add in a negative effect like for the X sec. cannot be healed. It should be big and flashy, making it a play making ability. These abilities should be few and high cds, but be the big outplay. Like instead of protecting a teammate what if you use it to escape quickly or put yourself or a player in stasis right after a rogue goes in on them. Utility classes should be flashy and unique, each utility class should be better in different circumstances, but their overall effectiveness should remain relatively in a close range with other support classes. A cleric may heal better than a bard, but the bard should provide either more cc or enhancers than the cleric has so yeah, bards don't heal as much, but they don't need to because they are actively preventing incoming damage. Key though, do not make tanks just cookie cutter meatshields, don't make supports all heal, each class should thrive in different aspects while still providing the same amount of value in their role.
A tank class that has a lower hp pool and takes more damage, but has increasing armor the lower hp or some type of damage negation, while another tank could provide auras for his group and be more supportive. Each fulfills the "tank" role effectively, but differently. One is going to be constantly in the danger zone while another will be a more protective defensive one. Each can take and hold aggro, but the fights will play out a lot differently. Like for example for the tank with less health = more armor, full healing him is not a good thing, but knowing when and how much to heal is a key while the tank has to juggle different abilities to stay in that zone but not die. The other tank will support his team and maybe be less tanky than one who doesn't, which will require more heals on him but less heals on the rest of the group. The first tank is going to better in fights where bosses get you to a lot lower hp pools, but also makes it more dangerous for the tank, while the second tank will be better against bosses who do aoe, but cannot take singe target damage as well. Each tank can do either boss, but one will lessen mistakes in the aoe fight while another will be able to soak up damage for effectively, yet the aoe buffs are still good in any boss fight, and the single target soak is still good in any fight. Yeah yeah, one has an advantage over the other in separate fights, BUT, it shouldn't break the fight. When you do increased difficulty raids, if you have a badass first tank you will still want him over the aura one, just based on gear or skill, not abilities. If a weak raid tries to take on the aoe boss, the aoe tank will help lessen their mistakes, but if the same raid takes on the single target boss it shouldn't fall on the tank for losing the fight, but on the raid group itself.
Here is the Key, CLASSES SHOULD FULFILL ROLES WHILE DOING IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS! A rogue should have vastly different dps numbers depending on the situation than a warrior depending on their builds in burst, but the warrior should be ahead of a rogue in PvE. Remember, as long as there is counterplay in PvP with skill attached, and unique styles of achieving the classes roles, the game is "balanced". And this is the last thing, balance is impossible without making the classes the same, some classes will be better than others that is a fact, the point of balancing though is how much of the gap in numbers is skill vs. inherent class ratios.
Welp, that is my my 2...3...like 10 bits on that lol. Honestly love class balance as the best way to make everyone want to play this game is that when they identify with their character, fall in love with the world, and care about the game, even if their class is at a disadvantage in some areas in others, as long as they know that their skill and time pays off, that they can always outplay or play better, this game will continue to grow with a dedicated player base. Look at LoL, people don't care if their champion is out of meta, if it's not as good even if they play competitively, the only people that do are the 1% of pro where it matters, everyone else knows that in the end the better player will win and if you don't win the first time, that is where you get the drive to improve.
Bottom line: If Ashes becomes yet another game that creates a grind through "character creation choices being meaningful", I'll be really disappointed. Simply put, I've got enough games that I've invested a ton of time in, it's stressful for myself and my family because grinding new characters out is time consuming, and I've also got a ton of games where that factor is non-existent.
This isn't Call of Duty, where your setup/role can change on respawn and your account is leveled. This is an MMORPG where your character is going to take time to develop, and if: at the end of that development, you aren't happy with your character, and there's no option to change your class/professions, you're boned other than re-rolling.
I've actually been playing a lot of other games, and my wife's hooked on Fallout Shelter because re-rolling is that bad of an experience, as are RNG loot casinos with stats you can't reforge. All these "meaningful" mechanics aren't fun, aren't meaningful, they're dead ends that create a grind for people who want the best, and who will either quit/reroll if they don't have access to it.
Yes, I've met players who play something sub-par and get frustrated with my perspective. What I've always been frustrated with, is carrying them through content. Min/Max is what it is for a reason: If you aren't maxed, you're MINIMIZED.
I'd just like to see a game where I can make a character and it's always maxed, or if it isn't there is stuff I can do to max it, other than starting over.
Edited because I claimed I would throw in the towel if there wasn't some way to change classes. It will be a huge disappointment, but overall the game has challenged the general mold enough for me to back it no matter what.
64 classes is too many but also the wrong approach.
Start by have commons skill lines which everyone has access to: <strong>Armour</strong> Everyone can use clothing, light, medium, heavy armour and shields. And there will be skill lines for each which players can change what it does for them. <strong>Weapons</strong> Everyone can use swords, daggers, axes, one and two handed, staves, wands, etc. And there will be skill lines for each which players can change what it does for them.
With common skill lines it should be simple and easy to balance any skills which are OP.
And then have flexible skill lines/trees where players can build their characters they way they want them to be. As a simple example skill lines/trees for direct damage, aoe damage, crowd control, heavy tanking, light tanking, aoe healing, single target healing etc. Players could pick no more than 2 skill lines/trees at any one time. One would be a primary skill line gaining stronger bonuses and the other a secondary skill line being half as strong. In each skill line/tree would be skills related to those areas.
It would allow players to build a character they wanted and would remove the complication of balancing 64 classes, you would only have to balance individual skills.
As already was said - technically there is 64 combination. Fore some person -it,s pretty small amount/for others -opposit. We still dont know details. We has here some architypes. These architypes MAYBE had some specializations (ex. Rogue has dirty tricks/disguesing/acrobatics) than rogue "transform" into assasin and receive some new skills augments depend on new opened specializations(poisons/assasination etc.)). or may not\maybe they could has only 10 skills each and perform only 1 role-in that case here is Not so many "classes". "Start by have commons skill lines" - ... smells like TESO system, where some players actually can't build character they want(esp. with 4 classes), BUT i suppose it's design problem (sorry -when Mage's guild of Tamriel or Fighter guild has ONLY 5 skills -thats not funny). + Some ideas in TESO was pretty good(in my opinion) - ex.character development beyond classes-it could be dif. magic schools/weapon masteries/weapon styles(def./support/offencive manners of fighting etc.)/armor masteries/exotic disciplines and combat arts(EX. from ESO universe -Sword-Singers swordmanship/Gurdrun combat style/Unarmored disciplines). Close in mechanics classes could have some "shared" disciplines -like Fighter/Tank or Cleric/Bard etc.
Comments
One significant downside is it makes the amount of gear you need to keep much, much higher – but that also stimulates the economy.
I would really like to see AoC consider a class-change system, whether that system is instant-change (FFXIV), situational change (FFXI – you have to be in a ‘home’), or complicated change (as in it takes effort, like a quest chain, or is gated behind a time gate)
Thoughts?
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No they are not going to make this game like FFXIV where you can change your weapon and be another Job. They want choices to mean something and FFXIV kills choices. Everything from gear to the jobs are streamlined and make the game as boring as hell. Ashes is breaking the mold of streamlining everything. Yes it sounds like you can change your second class, but no you should not be able to change your main class. That is what choices having meaning is about. Also FFXIV the Job system works well because the game is 90% designed around being a Dungeon Crawler. Ashes will not be a dungeon crawler. Its focus is open world PVP with a lot of PVE elements included.
You got your base classes and then specializations you can work into.
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YES! SWG's systems were so good! (Pre-NGE), AoC could benefit looking back at that old mmo.
What I think Helzbelz is saying is that MMOs like WoW attempt to balance classes so that each can hold their own against all other classes. This is a fundementally flawed approach as it creates a natural pressure to homogenise abilities in all the classes. This makes the classes non-unique and reduces the feel of different playstyles. The alternative being the rock, paper, scissors approach where classes are good in some situations but not in others. For example a ranged dps shouldn't be as effective in closed environments against melee classes. Whereas melee should be weak in open spaces against magic users that can keep them at range. Equally, your class should be at a natural advantage against some classes and disadvantages against others. If not, then the abilities are too similar between classes.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/2/#post-11068" rel="nofollow">Dissodant wrote:</a></div>
Being better in a single situation is not the balancing act going on in most MMOs, most of them presently on the market being better in ONE situation means being better at PVP. Sorry , but the majority of people who enjoy playing MMOs at one point in time will be involved in combat whether its with npcs or with plaers. Having one class be the cookie cutter I win button doesnt really inspire confidence in any dev team
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What I think Helzbelz is saying is that MMOs like WoW attempt to balance classes so that each can hold their own against all other classes. This is a fundementally flawed approach as it creates a natural pressure to homogenise abilities in all the classes. This makes the classes non-unique and reduces the feel of different playstyles. The alternative being the rock, paper, scissors approach where classes are good in some situations but not in others. For example a ranged dps shouldn’t be as effective in closed environments against melee classes. Whereas melee should be weak in open spaces against magic users that can keep them at range. Equally, your class should be at a natural advantage against some classes and disadvantages against others. If not, then the abilities are too similar between classes.
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Yep. The Streamlining of the classes in WOW is why I have not touched the game but for a whole 2 weeks since the first 2 months of WOD. Because I am tired of streamlining. I want classes to feel different and have strengths and weaknesses. My best example is Druids in TBC were great HOT healers. Palis were Single Target Healers. Priest could do Single Target or AoE healing and Shaman were chain healers but could do Single target healing too. Each had different play styles and were good in different situations. Druids were not so good if they had to heal the main tank solo, Palis could keep up both MT and OT themselves, and Priest and Shaman could go either way.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
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Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote>
Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
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"Again", please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn't like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don't present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said "make the game like wow", but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo's, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo's for what has, and what hasn't worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think "there should be no focus on balancing all the classes", seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12008" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote>
Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
</blockquote>
“Again”, please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn’t like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don’t present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said “make the game like wow”, but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo’s, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo’s for what has, and what hasn’t worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think “there should be no focus on balancing all the classes”, seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
[/quote]
No I am basically telling you the dam truth. People like you go to every new MMORPGS forums, want it designed exactly like your current MMORPG. Then when it releases and the game is nothing new you bitch about it that it is not WOW or FFXIV or any other MMORPG that you play. Then you leave to go back to your old MMORPG. Then the new game has to go F2P because no one wants to play the game because its just another WOW Clone. I am telling you the truth. If you want WOW stay in WOW. If I wanted a Gear Treadmill I would not be on this forum pushing for this game to have a Gear treadmill. I would just stay in FFXIV.
It's one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now. It sucks it makes every class the same as the next class. Hell this game will have many situations some classes will be completely useless for and in other situations dominate. Guess what. That is TRUE balance. Not Today's MMORPG where All Melee DPS play exactly the same, All Tanks play Exactly the same, All range DPS play exactly the same and All healers play exactly the same. Because people like you think everything should be GREAT at EVERYTHING. Sorry you want that, stay in the MMORPG you are in because if you get what you want you will be come bored and just end up back in that MMORPG.
I want something Different than the mainstream mindless MMORPG. I want MMORPGs to look at MMORPGs BEFORE WOW. Believe it or not MMORPGS existed before WOW and Did Great before WOW. Yes There was not 1v1 balance and things were great.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12025" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
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<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12008" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-11968" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
I would prefer less classes. This system sounds to me like WOW where you have classes and specs, which is fine, but even WOW after all these years could never manage to balance pvp, or even pve for that matter.
I think with all to many options you will be constantly swapping back and forth (if possible) to meet best what task lies at at, being it a dungeon where aoe might be required, or a raid where single target might be preferred.
No, 8 classes if done properly with unique playstyles and spells, should feel plenty and make it easier for both players to stay ontop of changes coming out, and for the devs to balance the game out for both PVE and PVP.
</blockquote>
Again people here do not want WOW. IF we wanted WOW We would play WOW. Ashes will Fail if it is just another WOW Clone because there are already dozens of games like that out there. No there should be no focus on balancing all the classes. Again if this game because WOW I might as well stay in FFXIV because what the hell is the point to playing another WOW Clone when I already will be playing a WOW Clone?
</blockquote>
“Again”, please do not make the childish, ignorant mistake of speaking for others. There are always people who agree, and disagree with your opinion, and you have no idea which numbers support which, nor is that relevant. Speak for yourself, on what you would, and wouldn’t like in this game and we can have a constructive conversation about a game we are all excited for. Don’t present your own opinions as facts.
On topic, I never said “make the game like wow”, but if you honestly expect the game to be completely new, without any similarity to past mmo’s, you are sorely mistaken. The devs are clearly not stupid, and as such they already have, and they will moving on, look to past mmo’s for what has, and what hasn’t worked in the past. There is no going around that, every developer does this.
I would love some input as to why you think “there should be no focus on balancing all the classes”, seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges?
</blockquote>
No I am basically telling you the dam truth. People like you go to every new MMORPGS forums, want it designed exactly like your current MMORPG. Then when it releases and the game is nothing new you bitch about it that it is not WOW or FFXIV or any other MMORPG that you play. Then you leave to go back to your old MMORPG. Then the new game has to go F2P because no one wants to play the game because its just another WOW Clone. I am telling you the truth. If you want WOW stay in WOW. If I wanted a Gear Treadmill I would not be on this forum pushing for this game to have a Gear treadmill. I would just stay in FFXIV.
It’s one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now. It sucks it makes every class the same as the next class. Hell this game will have many situations some classes will be completely useless for and in other situations dominate. Guess what. That is TRUE balance. Not Today’s MMORPG where All Melee DPS play exactly the same, All Tanks play Exactly the same, All range DPS play exactly the same and All healers play exactly the same. Because people like you think everything should be GREAT at EVERYTHING. Sorry you want that, stay in the MMORPG you are in because if you get what you want you will be come bored and just end up back in that MMORPG.
I want something Different than the mainstream mindless MMORPG. I want MMORPGs to look at MMORPGs BEFORE WOW. Believe it or not MMORPGS existed before WOW and Did Great before WOW. Yes There was not 1v1 balance and things were great.
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So from 1 post you now know me and people like me, Christ you're pretentious..
As I already established I don't want another WOW, I would in fact like to move on from a 12 year old game onto something new and exciting.
I simply said that I thought the character system in this game sounded like the one WOW already has, being you pick a main class, and a specialization thereafter, and contrary to that, I would much rather prefer a different system with less classes, so you could focus on balancing them. As I'm sure you're well aware, class balance is one of those things that seem to piss people off about games, causing outrages on forums.
Your statement "It’s one thing to say All classes should have things they are good at and bad at. Its a totally different that you want to balance things around a 1v1 situation. Guess what, NO thats what MMORPGS have done for 10 years now." is such bogus yet again, I never said to balance things around 1v1, I said " seeing how the game will have 1v1 arena with leader-boards which make it seem highly necessary to keep things balanced on a 1v1 level as well as in raid groups fighting sieges". They clearly want different brackets of pvp, both 1v1, as well as something with bigger teams, plus the siege system, and then they'll have to find some way to keep every class fairly equal in strength. Also, never have I ever seen a mmorpg like WOW, RIFT or Aion balancing classes around 1v1, duels have basically been the most imbalanced part of wow PVP, always.
If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.
How this will be sorted I have no idea of, and I'm fairly certain the devs wont be reading this forum post for a solution either, but staying on topic, I find it very hard to believe they can keep 1v1 arena entertaining and challenging for everyone if they don't tweak the classes very cleverly.
What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things.
The mail focus in the game will be the node system and open world PVP. Which there is no way to balance open world PVP. One guild could come with 150 players vs another guild that only has 50 defending the node. There is no way to balance that. When it comes to classes. again you streamlined the classes and you really make it about numbers and gear vs players who have different classes and specs that can help nullify larger numbers because of so many different classes.
I understand what you want. What I am saying is you cannot balance a game around mechanics that have no way to be balanced period. What good is balancing classes for 3 v 3 or 5 v 5 when that will rarely happen in open world PVP like sieges. What I am saying is Ashes should be a good sandbox games with more options and no real way to balance things. Let the player base balance the classes out themselves.
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12051" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.
</blockquote>
What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things. [/quote]
I think a system focusing on interdependence is definitely one way to go, but personally I don't like relying on setting up certain teams because "we need that mana drainer class", or "we need that insane aoe dmg dealer x5 for this raid to work" can be really frustrating. I remember in Rift world PVP where I was in a small guild where we used to fight 20vs100 etc in open world pvp, we would get 3-5 people playing a mage spec that drained everyone's mana. If the right people were online that evening, we could beat any numbers because the enemy was out of mana in 5seconds of the game and we could kill them without them getting heals.
Obviously I understand that world pvp wont be fair, nor should it be in my opinion. If 1 person faces 3 people, he should die unless he's incredibly good at playing, and if 20 players fight 40, no class setup should be able to compensate for that, player skill as in rotating CC, hardswapping targets, protecting healers etc is tactics and require teamwork, having a big guild so you can bring "10 of those" and "5 of those" just doesn't make any sense to me.
Maybe I'm naive, but I figure if you make classes fairly balanced to each other, I figure what setup you bring shouldn't matter as much. I don't really see the point of every class having some "OMG DID YOU SEE THAT" spell, as in 1 class having a 5sec 1-shot ability, or another having a stupid mana drain that will prove essential for any serious pvp siege etc.
You can have cool class mechanics like say how you teleport, charge, fear, stun, grips, shields, heals and whatever else without a class having to be super different from another in every aspect like the amount of damage you deal from casts or melee hits for example.
Honestly I have no idea what the "best" solution is for this is, nor what the general player-base might prefer, I'm just speaking of personal experience and what I myself has picked up on along my 15 years of palying mmorpgs.
Anyways, glad to see you get more on topic in your last post, much more constructive and easy to communicate with. Let's try to keep things constructive in here :p
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12089" rel="nofollow">Helzbelz wrote:</a></div>
<blockquote>
<div class="d4p-bbt-quote-title"><a href="https://www.ashesofcreation.com/forums/topic/64-distinct-classes/page/3/#post-12051" rel="nofollow">Nightspyre wrote:</a></div>
If you make some classes better equipped to counter others, you will end up with say a 3v3 bracket where certain teams with certain classes will be dominating higher-up, with no way for other classes to get high up until the devs make some class balancing change.
</blockquote>
What I am saying is basically if you do exactly what you are stating here you end up with a streamlined MMORPG like WOW. What I am saying is things should be like it was in SWG for example. I was a Command, I lead a Commando team. When we took down player run bases my team and I would use Rocket launchers to kill AT-STs and bases defenses. We were great at that and did our jobs well. We were shit though when it came to bounty hunters attacking us in close range because we were not equipped for that fight. Thats why there were teras kasi who stuck close to us to help us with the bounty hunters. It pushes for an interdependence on other classes vs streamlining things.
</blockquote>
I think a system focusing on interdependence is definitely one way to go, but personally I don’t like relying on setting up certain teams because “we need that mana drainer class”, or “we need that insane aoe dmg dealer x5 for this raid to work” can be really frustrating. I remember in Rift world PVP where I was in a small guild where we used to fight 20vs100 etc in open world pvp, we would get 3-5 people playing a mage spec that drained everyone’s mana. If the right people were online that evening, we could beat any numbers because the enemy was out of mana in 5seconds of the game and we could kill them without them getting heals.
Obviously I understand that world pvp wont be fair, nor should it be in my opinion. If 1 person faces 3 people, he should die unless he’s incredibly good at playing, and if 20 players fight 40, no class setup should be able to compensate for that, player skill as in rotating CC, hardswapping targets, protecting healers etc is tactics and require teamwork, having a big guild so you can bring “10 of those” and “5 of those” just doesn’t make any sense to me.
Maybe I’m naive, but I figure if you make classes fairly balanced to each other, I figure what setup you bring shouldn’t matter as much. I don’t really see the point of every class having some “OMG DID YOU SEE THAT” spell, as in 1 class having a 5sec 1-shot ability, or another having a stupid mana drain that will prove essential for any serious pvp siege etc.
You can have cool class mechanics like say how you teleport, charge, fear, stun, grips, shields, heals and whatever else without a class having to be super different from another in every aspect like the amount of damage you deal from casts or melee hits for example.
Honestly I have no idea what the “best” solution is for this is, nor what the general player-base might prefer, I’m just speaking of personal experience and what I myself has picked up on along my 15 years of palying mmorpgs.
Anyways, glad to see you get more on topic in your last post, much more constructive and easy to communicate with. Let’s try to keep things constructive in here :p
[/quote]
Yea I dont think the classes and the game should revolve around "If you dont have X Y Z classes then you will suck period" No it shouldnt be like that however there should be some setups that are clearly better for PVP than others. For example a Pure Tank that is designed for PVE content should really be at a disadvantage vs someone like a Stealth Ranger. You get where I am going with this? I dont want to see a Pure PVE tank setup be equal to a setup that is designed for PVP. What I find is best for balance is If you have some classes that are more designed for PVP than PVE and some that are designed for PVE than PVP. It does not mean you cannot do one other the other it just means that your not idea for the situation.
O I do think they need mana draining abilities. That would be cool as hell to take a small 20 man team into an 80 attack force and just start draining mana all over the place while you have 60 rangers on the wall shooting at everyone and everything :) Mana drain the healer piss him off first :)
I just really dont want to see any streamlining in this game like I do in WOW. I do miss the days of unique classes that have their specialties. There will always be something that can neutralize 1 class or another. Like a mana drainer attacked by a Ranger or Rogue. Rogue could be neutralized by a warrior with heavy armor and so on.
Yea I dont think the classes and the game should revolve around “If you dont have X Y Z classes then you will suck period” No it shouldnt be like that however there should be some setups that are clearly better for PVP than others. For example a Pure Tank that is designed for PVE content should really be at a disadvantage vs someone like a Stealth Ranger. You get where I am going with this? I dont want to see a Pure PVE tank setup be equal to a setup that is designed for PVP. What I find is best for balance is If you have some classes that are more designed for PVP than PVE and some that are designed for PVE than PVP. It does not mean you cannot do one other the other it just means that your not idea for the situation.
O I do think they need mana draining abilities. That would be cool as hell to take a small 20 man team into an 80 attack force and just start draining mana all over the place while you have 60 rangers on the wall shooting at everyone and everything <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" /> Mana drain the healer piss him off first <img alt="????" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/2.2.1/svg/1f642.svg" />
I just really dont want to see any streamlining in this game like I do in WOW. I do miss the days of unique classes that have their specialties. There will always be something that can neutralize 1 class or another. Like a mana drainer attacked by a Ranger or Rogue. Rogue could be neutralized by a warrior with heavy armor and so on.
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I never liked tanks etc in pvp either, but under the right circumstance it would be fine, damage vs mitigration evening itself out etc, but generally, f-em.
From what you said about bounty hunters etc it sounded like you wanted certain classes to be obliterated by others, and everything balancing out in big combat only where you had everything.
Mana drain is a really annoying feature, specially when it isn't something you can counter, like a long cast etc. I remember in rift you put a debuf on people, and if they used an ability for X seconds, they removed x% mana from everyone within X-yard range. Was just ridicules and required zero-to-no skill if you faced larger groups who weren't coordinated.
Like a 5-sec visible animation cast with a fairly short range so you can counter it, could work, but it need to be in a way it doesn't get exploited to counter any healer etc or be OP as shit, so you can just pick X-number of a class and win large-scale pvp making other classes useless.
Edit: Right, so those smileys just happened... This forum is ridicules .. lol
From what you said about bounty hunters etc it sounded like you wanted certain classes to be obliterated by others, and everything balancing out in big combat only where you had everything.
Mana drain is a really annoying feature, specially when it isn’t something you can counter, like a long cast etc. I remember in rift you put a debuf on people, and if they used an ability for X seconds, they removed x% mana from everyone within X-yard range. Was just ridicules and required zero-to-no skill if you faced larger groups who weren’t coordinated.
Like a 5-sec visible animation cast with a fairly short range so you can counter it, could work, but it need to be in a way it doesn’t get exploited to counter any healer etc or be OP as shit, so you can just pick X-number of a class and win large-scale pvp making other classes useless.
Edit: Right, so those smileys just happened… This forum is ridicules .. lol[/quote]
I didnt do PVP in Rift. I did mainly the open world Rifts which were fun plus the boss fights until I got bored. Also the entire zone going into a state of war was good. Too bad they focused so hard on the gear treadmill of doing Tier 1 of dungeons to do the Next Tier of dungeons just to get into the raids. That was what drove me nuts.
I am thinking of something more like Vanilla WOW had with hunters where their drain mana shot would drain X amount per second over 20 seconds. I remember this specifically because the Bat bitch boss in ZG we had to have our 3 hunters draining her mana because if you didnt then she would heal herself. Its a good mechanic if done right. I am not looking for an over powered mana draining ability but something that does have some effect in the game. I remember it too because when I was twinking in WOW PVP during vanilla my hunter use to drain manage from mages. It helped me win a lot of fights because I would put my mana drain sting on a mage, take a hit or two run away heal up, come back hit him again with the sting. Wait until he is nearly out of mana then hit him. It was about skill with using the ability.
I dont want classes to be OP by another class, but I do think a Class that has strengths that exploit another's weakness is import. Like a Rogue shouldnt go toe to toe with a with a Warrior and win. If the Rogue wants to win it you should use your strengths not just see who can hit harder because in that case a warrior should kick the shit out of the Rogue. I want to see PVPers and PVEers use their class strengths to over come a battle not be the same as the next.
I think the multiplication of classes with mixed talents/skills is positive. The balance between classes can not be guaranteed before the game is alive and full of players. Common sense must prevail, wish luck to some and bad luck to others according to the classes they choose. Let them have all the competence to get the best of them. The mystery of the future is part of the game.
Please, no trinities, for God's sake.
Too late they are already going to have a Trinity, They already have tank as a class and Cleric who is a healer.
[/quote]
Yeah. 64 classes is the path to a random trinity... you'll never know who is healer, tank or dps. Different situations will ask for different strategies like ArcheAge
http://www.mmogames.com/gamearticles/mmos-should-keep-the-trinity/
Another point for balance, classes should be unbalanced with some being better than others, however, a class should never feel like the only reason they cannot perform their role well is because of their class choice, mind you, a class they probably will have dedicated time and effort into on their main. A way you could solve this without making classes the same, is by again, like how league does it, varying time/attack style/specialization. A rogue should be able to one shot you if you are 1. out of position(alone or away from team), 2. you do not have a cc removal or a defensive cd available atm, and 3. the rogue can skillfully pull off his abilities and manage his resources well. A bad rogue will mess up a combo, run out of energy, and then you can retaliate knowing they just used all of their core dmg abilities. This is how you can create counter play, each class should have an equal opportunity in a fight to turn it around or outplay, without making either side feel as if they cannot counter in way.
For PvE, this has to do more with damage timing and style. Each class should deal damage based on timing of abilities and managing resources, however, dps should deal different damage over time in a fight. A rogue who specializes in assassinating should have insane burst, but marginal overtime dps, this goes back to helzbelz point of disadvantages and advantages for classes. A rogue can contribute to an extended fight, but somebody like a warrior who deals more damage or more consistent damage over time should out dps the rogue by a certain amount as long as he is playing correctly. You want to PvP and kill people in 1v1s? Go rogue yet pve dps suffers, overall generalist, not particular good or bad at damage in either? warrior. The difference then will come in with use of defensive abilities and timing, at least for PvP. Rogue does a huge high cd ability that takes 50% of the warriors hp? Warrior could respond with berserk making him deal more damage the lower heath he is and boom, tables turned. Now if the warrior cast berserk too soon? He messed up, rogue forgot about warrior's ability or didn't wait for warrior to use it before doing his ability, the rogue messed up. Each class can counter and counter back, with the prevailing factor in winning should be game knowledge. Didn't know warriors can do that rogue boy? Well no you know and next time don't make the same mistake, it's called get good lol.
For PvE however, knowing it is tab targeting combat, what might help in balancing so the performing aspect gap isn't too huge(cough cough, frost dks and outlaw rogues in legion) is you can change out abilities. THESE ABILITIES SHOULD BE IN LINE WITH THE ARCHETYPE OF THE CLASS! For PvP, rogue can use a huge damaging ability that costs a lot of energy, but hey, if they're dead then you win, but that ability would be extremely bad against bosses who you can't one shot. Trade out the super assassin ability for something with less damage. Note, mixing abilities should be a thing, there shouldn't be a huge amount, but if instead of a super coup de grace the rogue could switch to a combo ability that can stem off into decent damage, yet not instantaneous damage. Hence, the overtime aspect. Or, don't have switching abilities and just have the play style different. Like, hey if your doing pvp, use super damage button, but, in PvE do not use it as you will lose all of your energy and so dps, instead use combo ability that will be better for the extended fight. This sounds bad because I'm not incorporating the other abilities you will use, but I'm am just working off one ability and the rogue and warrior should naturally have 10 abilities that they are using in their combat.
For healers and tanks, I haven't played a lot off MMOs different support classes, but some things that should be different is definitely Helzbelz examples of different healing style, same thing for tanks, different mitigation styles. A core aspect which could make support classes feel more unique however are the group/raid affecting abilities. Paladins could have a long cooldown ability that could place a shield that would negate the next magic attack for all those behind the shield, while warriors could have a raid wide command shout that could inc. his group's armor for a duration, or inc. their attack. Now importantly, bosses should not need a specific class to tank or heal or dps too complete. The bosses and fights should not REQUIRE the paladin's shield or the warrior's buff, it should just make the fight easier for the raid to complete. This way even if a boss is easier with a warrior, the raid can still be accomplished just not as easily. And I uses easily very lightly. This part has more to do with boss mechanics as the classes are not the problem when they cannot do a raid or dungeon as well as another class, bosses should not be made specifically easier for X ability on X class that could give that class a huge advantage over others, a little sure, but one that makes other classes irrelevant or not worth it is very unhealthy for PvE class balancing.
For healers, large protection spells could also be good, or like for the bard, damage enhancing auras. If a tank is about to die, a good ability to show skill could be a stasis or martyr spell of some sort. Ie. tank or dps is about to die, cleric uses an ability that puts the target in a stasis for X time, player cannot be targeted by all abilities or attacks, cannot cast spells or move. Boom, saves tank or dps , allows group to recover but also, off tank has to tank or group has to back off and use cc until tank comes back. The martyr spell, fly to the targets locations, blocking and absorbing the next X attacks aimed at target and reducing damage taken by X%, then add in a negative effect like for the X sec. cannot be healed. It should be big and flashy, making it a play making ability. These abilities should be few and high cds, but be the big outplay. Like instead of protecting a teammate what if you use it to escape quickly or put yourself or a player in stasis right after a rogue goes in on them. Utility classes should be flashy and unique, each utility class should be better in different circumstances, but their overall effectiveness should remain relatively in a close range with other support classes. A cleric may heal better than a bard, but the bard should provide either more cc or enhancers than the cleric has so yeah, bards don't heal as much, but they don't need to because they are actively preventing incoming damage. Key though, do not make tanks just cookie cutter meatshields, don't make supports all heal, each class should thrive in different aspects while still providing the same amount of value in their role.
A tank class that has a lower hp pool and takes more damage, but has increasing armor the lower hp or some type of damage negation, while another tank could provide auras for his group and be more supportive. Each fulfills the "tank" role effectively, but differently. One is going to be constantly in the danger zone while another will be a more protective defensive one. Each can take and hold aggro, but the fights will play out a lot differently. Like for example for the tank with less health = more armor, full healing him is not a good thing, but knowing when and how much to heal is a key while the tank has to juggle different abilities to stay in that zone but not die. The other tank will support his team and maybe be less tanky than one who doesn't, which will require more heals on him but less heals on the rest of the group. The first tank is going to better in fights where bosses get you to a lot lower hp pools, but also makes it more dangerous for the tank, while the second tank will be better against bosses who do aoe, but cannot take singe target damage as well. Each tank can do either boss, but one will lessen mistakes in the aoe fight while another will be able to soak up damage for effectively, yet the aoe buffs are still good in any boss fight, and the single target soak is still good in any fight. Yeah yeah, one has an advantage over the other in separate fights, BUT, it shouldn't break the fight. When you do increased difficulty raids, if you have a badass first tank you will still want him over the aura one, just based on gear or skill, not abilities. If a weak raid tries to take on the aoe boss, the aoe tank will help lessen their mistakes, but if the same raid takes on the single target boss it shouldn't fall on the tank for losing the fight, but on the raid group itself.
Here is the Key, CLASSES SHOULD FULFILL ROLES WHILE DOING IT IN DIFFERENT WAYS! A rogue should have vastly different dps numbers depending on the situation than a warrior depending on their builds in burst, but the warrior should be ahead of a rogue in PvE. Remember, as long as there is counterplay in PvP with skill attached, and unique styles of achieving the classes roles, the game is "balanced". And this is the last thing, balance is impossible without making the classes the same, some classes will be better than others that is a fact, the point of balancing though is how much of the gap in numbers is skill vs. inherent class ratios.
Welp, that is my my 2...3...like 10 bits on that lol. Honestly love class balance as the best way to make everyone want to play this game is that when they identify with their character, fall in love with the world, and care about the game, even if their class is at a disadvantage in some areas in others, as long as they know that their skill and time pays off, that they can always outplay or play better, this game will continue to grow with a dedicated player base. Look at LoL, people don't care if their champion is out of meta, if it's not as good even if they play competitively, the only people that do are the 1% of pro where it matters, everyone else knows that in the end the better player will win and if you don't win the first time, that is where you get the drive to improve.
This isn't Call of Duty, where your setup/role can change on respawn and your account is leveled. This is an MMORPG where your character is going to take time to develop, and if: at the end of that development, you aren't happy with your character, and there's no option to change your class/professions, you're boned other than re-rolling.
I've actually been playing a lot of other games, and my wife's hooked on Fallout Shelter because re-rolling is that bad of an experience, as are RNG loot casinos with stats you can't reforge. All these "meaningful" mechanics aren't fun, aren't meaningful, they're dead ends that create a grind for people who want the best, and who will either quit/reroll if they don't have access to it.
Yes, I've met players who play something sub-par and get frustrated with my perspective. What I've always been frustrated with, is carrying them through content. Min/Max is what it is for a reason: If you aren't maxed, you're MINIMIZED.
I'd just like to see a game where I can make a character and it's always maxed, or if it isn't there is stuff I can do to max it, other than starting over.
Edited because I claimed I would throw in the towel if there wasn't some way to change classes. It will be a huge disappointment, but overall the game has challenged the general mold enough for me to back it no matter what.
Start by have commons skill lines which everyone has access to:
<strong>Armour</strong>
Everyone can use clothing, light, medium, heavy armour and shields.
And there will be skill lines for each which players can change what it does for them.
<strong>Weapons</strong>
Everyone can use swords, daggers, axes, one and two handed, staves, wands, etc.
And there will be skill lines for each which players can change what it does for them.
With common skill lines it should be simple and easy to balance any skills which are OP.
And then have flexible skill lines/trees where players can build their characters they way they want them to be.
As a simple example skill lines/trees for direct damage, aoe damage, crowd control, heavy tanking, light tanking, aoe healing, single target healing etc.
Players could pick no more than 2 skill lines/trees at any one time.
One would be a primary skill line gaining stronger bonuses and the other a secondary skill line being half as strong.
In each skill line/tree would be skills related to those areas.
It would allow players to build a character they wanted and would remove the complication of balancing 64 classes, you would only have to balance individual skills.
"Start by have commons skill lines" - ... smells like TESO system, where some players actually can't build character they want(esp. with 4 classes), BUT i suppose it's design problem (sorry -when Mage's guild of Tamriel or Fighter guild has ONLY 5 skills -thats not funny).
+ Some ideas in TESO was pretty good(in my opinion) - ex.character development beyond classes-it could be dif. magic schools/weapon masteries/weapon styles(def./support/offencive manners of fighting etc.)/armor masteries/exotic disciplines and combat arts(EX. from ESO universe -Sword-Singers swordmanship/Gurdrun combat style/Unarmored disciplines).
Close in mechanics classes could have some "shared" disciplines -like Fighter/Tank or Cleric/Bard etc.